When is the Mormon Prophet Speaking as a Prophet?

[SirThomasMore]

Don’t we all! All faiths have skeletons in their closet about what past leaders have said and done.

Perhaps…but since LDS has only been around less than 200 years, keep the comparisons even.

Regardless of what side of the fence you ride today, I have spoken the truth and Mormon Doctrine changes with the winds

 

[CatholicGuyNY]

Lets look at the old testament and the prophets in the old testament. They said many things but on the other hand there also said things that we have no record of because the people writing the old teatment included what they wanted people to read. But I think that it is a given that these prophets said many things that are not in the bible. We have a different situation within mormonism. We have reported speech of what Joseph Smith said. And also for Brigham Young. It is more intune with our time frame and not so far into the past. Now it would be wonderful to find reported speech of what some of the prophets said in the old testament. But no such luck. We just have the biblical account.

This does not answer my questions. When is the Mormon prophet speaking as a prophet? When Brigham Young was speaking about the Adam-God theory at General Conference, was he speaking as a prophet or not?

 

[CatholicGuyNY]

Does the belief that the Father was once a man come from anywhere else besides the King Follet’s Discourse? Was Joseph Smith speaking as a prophet during the Discourse?

 

[RebeccaJ]

Does the belief that the Father was once a man come from anywhere else besides the King Follet’s Discourse? Was Joseph Smith speaking as a prophet during the Discourse?

It was a teaching in their official manuals until very recently. However, the lds church has been removing this teaching from their manuals. Their late pres. Hinckley denied that this is mormon doctrine, during a national interview with Larry King. The people in the pews…some believe it, in various forms, others don’t.

You can never firmly determine mormon doctrine. It is a futile effort. It changes. Asking individual mormon members you’ll get different answers. Also different answers depending on if you yourself are mormon or not. They tend to play down what they know is strange or controversial, especially among non-mormons.

 

[pinay]

Does the belief that the Father was once a man come from anywhere else besides the King Follet’s Discourse? Was Joseph Smith speaking as a prophet during the Discourse?

Hi CatholicGuyNY!

King Follet’s Discourse is a discourse that Joseph Smith gave at the burial of his good friend, King Follet. As such, he was speaking as a friend of the deceased and not as a prophet of God.

 

[pinay]

It was a teaching in their official manuals until very recently. However, the lds church has been removing this teaching from their manuals. Their late pres. Hinckley denied that this is mormon doctrine, during a national interview with Larry King. The people in the pews…some believe it, in various forms, others don’t.

You can never firmly determine mormon doctrine. It is a futile effort. It changes. Asking individual mormon members you’ll get different answers. Also different answers depending on if you yourself are mormon or not. They tend to play down what they know is strange or controversial, especially among non-mormons.

Hello Rebecca,

The misunderstanding comes from what people think is doctrine. In this new world of electronics we have today, it is fairly easy to determine what is LDS doctrine. They are all contained here.

You can also find discussion materials here.

If you don’t find it there, then the doctrinal value of such material is questionable.

 

[pinay]

This does not answer my questions. When is the Mormon prophet speaking as a prophet? When Brigham Young was speaking about the Adam-God theory at General Conference, was he speaking as a prophet or not?

When Brigham Young spoke on April 9, 1852 at the General Conference, he was speaking as a prophet.

This is a good juxtaposition, I think:

When the president of the Church addresses the congregation on matters of spirituality, he is speaking as a prophet.

When the president of the Church addresses a group of people as part of his job as a… Congressman, for example… he is speaking as a Congressman.

Does that make sense?

Note: The Journal of Discourses is not LDS scripture. Brigham Young’s discourse about Adam that are noted in that book may or may not have been scribed accurately. If it was scribed accurately, then the interpretation of such discourse may or may have not gone on the way side. There is no way of knowing.

What we do know is what is on the scriptures. And that Adam-God Theory - whatever that is - is not in there as if Adam is God.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Hello Rebecca,

The misunderstanding comes from what people think is doctrine. In this new world of electronics we have today, it is fairly easy to determine what is LDS doctrine. They are all contained here.

You can also find discussion materials here.

If you don’t find it there, then the doctrinal value of such material is questionable.

Sorry pinay, I was raised LDS, and many things I was taught as doctrine are now called opinion or speculation. In some ways, I think it is good. In that, the LDS church tries more and more to discard what Christians call them on as non-Christian.

The internet has nothing to do with this, other than, it makes it harder for the LDS church to discard what it has always taught. Information is easily accessible, making it easier for people to reason for themselves.

 

[pinay]

Sorry pinay, I was raised LDS, and many things I was taught as doctrine are now called opinion or speculation. In some ways, I think it is good.

The internet has nothing to do with this, other than, it makes it harder for the LDS church to discard what it has always taught. Information is easily accessible, making it easier for people to reason for themselves.

Hi Rebecca,

There’s the rub. The LDS Church wards are run by LDS members. They’re all human. I was sitting in Relief Society a few years back and the teacher said that she couldn’t imagine the Celestial Kingdom not having dogs in there (she’s a dog lover).

Come to find out, some quote from Joseph Smith or some such echoed this same sentiment about his horse.

Still, this doesn’t make it doctrine.

The internet makes it much easier for anybody to determine what is taught by the LDS Church - even if you’re some pagan hottentot living on the remote mountains of Africa. Of course, if he would rather learn about the LDS Church from the Catholic forum, then it is his choice.

One can read the same exact Bible and come away with 2 entirely different understanding. Unless one engages the Holy Spirit, not much good comes from the reading.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Yes, I understand there is a lot of crazy speculation in mormonism. It certainly isn’t discouraged. I see at times Catholics here trying to determine what the orthodox teachings of mormonism are. There is no such thing as orthodoxy in mormonism. I think if any mormon tried to enforce such an idea, Smith would roll over in his grave, as he was all about gathering up whatever he liked and calling it “religion”.

Anyway, people aren’t fools pinay. They know when they are being taught the official doctrines and when people are wandering off on their own ideas. The racism, blasphemies against God and bigotry against non-mormon religions were not a crazy anomaly. They were doctrines.

I remember very clearly being taught that non-white skin was a curse, that “lamanite” were loathsome and lazy. This is in your BoM. It didn’t mesh well with my non-white friendships and learning at school about people in warmer latitudes having darker skin as an evolved protective mechanism. I was in 2nd or 3rd grade at the time.

That was one of my first, and very early clues, that it was all a lie.

 

[Matthew_Kane]

Does the belief that the Father was once a man come from anywhere else besides the King Follet’s Discourse? Was Joseph Smith speaking as a prophet during the Discourse?

Hi, Catholic Guy, no I do not believe it is anywhere else, and yes it seems that smith was speaking as a prophet since he said before he stated the belief, that he was unveiling the truth and that the world view was wrong. check for yourself:
catholic.com/library/Gods_of_the_Mormon_Church.asp

 

[pinay]

Yes, I understand there is a lot of crazy speculation in mormonism. It certainly isn’t discouraged. I see at times Catholics here trying to determine what the orthodox teachings of mormonism are. There is no such thing as orthodoxy in mormonism. I think if any mormon tried to enforce such an idea, Smith would roll over in his grave, as he was all about gathering up whatever he liked and calling it “religion”.

Anyway, people aren’t fools pinay. They know when they are being taught the official doctrines and when people are wandering off on their own ideas. The racism, blasphemies against God and bigotry against non-mormon religions were not a crazy anomaly. They were doctrines.

I remember very clearly being taught that non-white skin was a curse, that “lamanite” were loathsome and lazy. This is in your BoM. It didn’t mesh well with my non-white friendships and learning at school about people in warmer latitudes having darker skin as an evolved protective mechanism. I was in 2nd or 3rd grade at the time.

That was one of my first, and very early clues, that it was all a lie.

I don’t know who was teaching you Rebecca but if you read the Book of Mormon you will see that the Nephites were righteous in the beginning, the Lamanites were not. Then later on, the Nephites became wicked and the Lamanites became righteous. And on the cycle goes throughout the entire book.

And that, although God chose to curse some wicked people by darkening their skin, He never stated that ALL wicked people will be cursed with dark skin, nor did He ever state that ALL dark skinned people are cursed. Never in the Bible nor the BOM will you find that passage.

But then you were in 2nd or 3rd grade. You might not have understood it properly.

Of course non-doctrinal teaching is discouraged. All teachers from Primary all the way to the Bishop are given guidance on what to teach. The first thing you get when you get a call to teach is the book, “Teaching, No Greater Call” and it is VERY clear in that book that a teacher cannot use materials that are not endorsed by the Church (such as the Journal of Discourses) and a teacher cannot use personal examples/personal anecdotes/stories that are not in-line with the material. In fact, all lessons are outlined in a lesson manual and one cannot deviate far from it. The presidencies are required to provide training to the teachers and the Stake hold teacher trainings as well.

I should know. I teach the 8 year olds.

 

[pinay]

Hi, Catholic Guy, no I do not believe it is anywhere else, and yes it seems that smith was speaking as a prophet since he said before he stated the belief, that he was unveiling the truth and that the world view was wrong. check for yourself:
catholic.com/library/Gods_of_the_Mormon_Church.asp

Hello Matthew.

No, he was not speaking as a prophet. He was giving a speech at the burial of his good friend, King Follet. A prophet cannot reveal doctrine at a burial. If he makes mention of new doctrine that he has not revealed, then he is obliged to reveal such doctrine while addressing the congregation as a prophet of God. He never did so and no succeeding prophet has done so.

I’m not sure why one would go to a Catholic site to learn about the LDS church? I sure wouldn’t go to the LDS church to learn about the Catholics.

 

[campeador]

The first thing you get when you get a call to teach is the book, “Teaching, No Greater Call” and it is VERY clear in that book that a teacher cannot use materials that are not endorsed by the Church (such as the Journal of Discourses) and a teacher cannot use personal examples/personal anecdotes/stories that are not in-line with the material.

So, you’re saying that Brigham Young was misquoted when he said:

The only men who become Gods, even the Sons of God, are those who enter into polygamy.

Then what is the LDS teaching???

 

[pinay]

So, you’re saying that Brigham Young was misquoted when he said:

Absolutely. And the reason for this is - even during Joseph Smith’s time and all the way to the abolition of polygamy in the church - polygamy was not intended to be practiced by just ANY worthy male.

A good example of this is in the case of John Bennet who was a First Counselor to Joseph Smith. He was publicly denounced by Joseph Smith for being adulterous and was immediately released from his church leadership position. If the practice of polygamy would have been given to all faithful members of the church, John Bennet would have been allowed to marry his “other women” to avoid adulterous transgressions. Instead, the conflict caused John Bennet to fall away from the church and become it’s main opposition - which was really bad because he was a military leader and the mayor of Nauvoo and held political clout.

Then what is the LDS teaching???

The LDS Church teaches from Jacob 2:27-30:
“Wherefore, my brethren, hear me, and hearken to the word of the Lord: For there shall not any man among you have save it be one wife; and concubines he shall have none; For I, the Lord God, delight in the chastity of women. And whoredoms are an abomination before me; thus saith the Lord of Hosts. Wherefore, this people shall keep my commandments, saith the Lord of Hosts, or cursed be the land for their sakes. For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things.”

The bolded words teach us that men shall have one wife unless God commands his people otherwise.

 

[campeador]

Maybe you didn’t see these comments.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=6667444#post6667444

So, only men the prophet chose as worthy (himself, of course) were allowed to have more than one wife?

 

[pinay]

Maybe you didn’t see these comments.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=6667444#post6667444

So, only men the prophet chose as worthy (himself, of course) were allowed to have more than one wife?

Sorry campeador. I didn’t read that linked post. I am only on these forums once in a while when I have the time. It’s a long weekend so I’m having a very late night session with my computer.

On that linked thread, you need verse 30 to see it in context.

And no, the prophet do not choose who is worthy. God does.

 

[campeador]

No need to apologize. You’re the only LDS member who’ll answer my questions directly.

On that linked thread, you need verse 30 to see it in context.

I’m not used to speaking the Queen’s English, so what exactly does verse 30 mean?

 

[SirThomasMore]

Hi CatholicGuyNY!

King Follet’s Discourse is a discourse that Joseph Smith gave at the burial of his good friend, King Follet. As such, he was speaking as a friend of the deceased and not as a prophet of God.

That is not true. He was speaking as a prophet, explaining the nature of god
and such.
Lds leaders have quoted the discourse for years

 

[SirThomasMore]

I don’t know who was teaching you Rebecca but if you read the Book of Mormon you will see that the Nephites were righteous in the beginning, the Lamanites were not. Then later on, the Nephites became wicked and the Lamanites became righteous. And on the cycle goes throughout the entire book.

And that, although God chose to curse some wicked people by darkening their skin, He never stated that ALL wicked people will be cursed with dark skin, nor did He ever state that ALL dark skinned people are cursed. Never in the Bible nor the BOM will you find that passage.

But then you were in 2nd or 3rd grade. You might not have understood it properly.

Of course non-doctrinal teaching is discouraged. All teachers from Primary all the way to the Bishop are given guidance on what to teach. The first thing you get when you get a call to teach is the book, “Teaching, No Greater Call” and it is VERY clear in that book that a teacher cannot use materials that are not endorsed by the Church (such as the Journal of Discourses) and a teacher cannot use personal examples/personal anecdotes/stories that are not in-line with the material. In fact, all lessons are outlined in a lesson manual and one cannot deviate far from it. The presidencies are required to provide training to the teachers and the Stake hold teacher trainings as well.

I should know. I teach the 8 year olds.

That is simply not true. I was taught just like she was. And the fact the Book of Mormon changed its wording supports us. Originally, Blacks would become white. Now, they will become pure. Additionally, go read the quotes from BY and others that I have posted. It is clear that it was taught like we say it was.

And I should know, I taught all ages as LDS