When is the soul created?

[praise_Jesus_1]

I’ve been looking around and can’t quite seem to find an answer to the question I have.

My question is When is the soul created? Not when is the soul infused in the body but when the actual soul is created. From my understanding some think it is created around the time of conception whereas others think it was created long ago possibly around the same time as the angels.

Is there any definitive catholic teaching on when the soul is created?

Thanks.

 

[liquidpele]

According to some movie I saw once, there is a hall of souls and once that’s used up it’s Armageddon time. Unless a woman chooses to die for her baby in a vision and then the hall gets refilled anyway.

Edit: Ah, I remember now, it was called “the omen”.

No idea if that is in-line with Catholicism, but it was an interesting take.

 

[praise_Jesus_1]

I just saw a similar question on another thread and it appears that our soul is created at the time of conception or around there. Does anyone have any sources for this?

I’ve found it in the Summa Theologica Question 90 Article 4, but I’m just curious where I could find this dogmatically defined.

Thanks!

 

[Joe_Kelley]

I’ve been looking around and can’t quite seem to find an answer to the question I have.

My question is When is the soul created? Not when is the soul infused in the body but when the actual soul is created. From my understanding some think it is created around the time of conception whereas others think it was created long ago possibly around the same time as the angels.

Is there any definitive catholic teaching on when the soul is created?

Thanks.

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church

365 The unity of soul and body is so profound that one has to consider the soul to be the “form” of the body:234 i.e., it is because of its spiritual soul that the body made of matter becomes a living, human body; spirit and matter, in man, are not two natures united, but rather their union forms a single nature.
[366](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/366.htm’) The Church teaches that every spiritual soul is created immediately by God - it is not “produced” by the parents - and also that it is immortal: it does not perish when it separates from the body at death, and it will be reunited with the body at the final Resurrection.235

I think that is interpreted as immediately at the time of infusion.

 

[Katholish]

While it is dogmatically defined that all souls are the immediate creation of God, it has not been definied at what point this occurs, though it is by far the overwhelming theological consenses that this occurs at the moment of infusion, which given scientific evidence not available to Aristotle and Thomas, most theologians beleive this occurs at the moment of conception.

 

[praise_Jesus_1]

Thanks for the help.

 

[WillieWonka]

“Certainly no experimental datum can be in itself sufficient to bring us to the recognition of a spiritual soul; nevertheless, the conclusions of science regarding the human embryo provide a valuable indication for discerning by the use of reason a personal presence at the moment of this first appearance of a human life: how could a human individual not be a human person? The Magisterium has not expressly committed itself to an affirmation of a philosophical nature, but it constantly reaffirms the moral condemnation of any kind of procured abortion. This teaching has not been changed and is unchangeable.[26]”

RESPECT FOR HUMAN LIFE (Donum Vitae)
Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith
During an audience granted to the undersigned Prefect after the plenary session of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, the Supreme Pontiff, John Paul II, approved this instruction and ordered it to be published.
Given at Rome, from the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, February 22, 1987, the Feast of the Chair of St. Peter, the Apostle.
Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger Prefect
Alberto Bovone Titular Archbishop of Caesarea in Numidia Secretary

cin.org/vatcong/donumvit.html

 

[rskempf]

The creation of the soul and ensoulment at the moment of conception is consistent with the statement that when we procreate we are participating in the creative process with God. God is there with us at that moment of conception.

 

[chaunceygardner]

A very interesting question, which is similar to one from another thread. Here are a few thoughts from my contributions on that thread, keeping in mind that is in my own personal view point:

First, if we accept that God is infinite, then everything is contained in Him and He is in everything.

Second, that means he is in every human being. We call this part of God in each of us our “soul”.

Third, you can neither gain nor lose your soul, since it is a part of God and is therefore eternal. It existed before we were created, and will exist after our physical bodies are gone.

Fourth, we must be receptive to God within us, we must respond to His word and His call, for God’s power inside us to have any effect. This is what we would call “Grace”.

The merging of our physical existence with our soul at conception (infusion?) is what makes us human, and is the reason we are said to be created “in the image of God”.

So in my view, our soul was never “created” because it is a part of God, it is the essence of God within us. We “receive” it from God at conception (and yet it always remains a part of God), the moment we are physically “created”.

Here is an excerpt from remarks made by Pope Benedict during a General Audience where he talks about the relationship between the Holy Spirit and our souls:

It is as if to say that the Holy Spirit, that is, the Spirit of the Father and of the Son, is henceforth as it were the soul of our soul, the most secret part of our being, from which an impulse of prayer rises ceaselessly to God, whose words we cannot even begin to explain.

 

[JimG]

Our soul was never part of God, because God is indivisible, and we are not pantheists.

Since the soul is the animating principle of the body, it is created and infused simultaneously with the beginning of a new bodily human being–i.e., at conception.

 

[praise_Jesus_1]

Well Aquinas in the summa Question 90, Article 2 states:

I answer that, The rational soul can be made only by creation; which, however, is not true of other forms. The reason is because, since to be made is the way to existence, a thing must be made in such a way as is suitable to its mode of existence. Now that properly exists which itself has existence; as it were, subsisting in its own existence. Wherefore only substances are properly and truly called beings; whereas an accident has not existence, but something is (modified) by it, and so far is it called a being; for instance, whiteness is called a being, because by it something is white. Hence it is said Metaph. vii, Did. vi, 1 that an accident should be described as “of something rather than as something.” The same is to be said of all non-subsistent forms. Therefore, properly speaking, it does not belong to any non-existing form to be made; but such are said to be made through the composite substances being made. On the other hand, the rational soul is a subsistent form, as above explained (75, 2). Wherefore it is competent to be and to be made. And since it cannot be made of pre-existing matter–whether corporeal, which would render it a corporeal being–or spiritual, which would involve the transmutation of one spiritual substance into another, we must conclude that it cannot exist except by creation.

So It seems pretty clear that yes the soul is created and Article 4 of the same question indicates that the soul is created at the same time as the body.

Now Augustine and Origen thought that all human souls were created at the time of the angels. (which does make a little bit of sense if you think about unique guardian angels being created for each and every soul). They both had 2 different arguments for this - none which considered guardian angels by the way, but involving the substance of the soul.

Aquinas says in the summa: “Now the soul, as a part of human nature, has its natural perfection only as united to the body. Therefore it would have been unfitting for the soul to be created without the body.” (1,90,4)

I think I’m going to side with Aquinas on this one.

Thanks for all of your insights.

 

[chaunceygardner]

Our soul was never part of God, because God is indivisible, and we are not pantheists.

Since the soul is the animating principle of the body, it is created and infused simultaneously with the beginning of a new bodily human being–i.e., at conception.

Well, so far I have been called a Gnostic, a Hindu and now a Panthiest. I am not dividing God, since God is infinite and something that is infinite cannot be divided. Again, if the universe and we are contained within God (not separate from Him), then no slicing and dicing is required. If the soul is “created” at conception, then what is it created from? What does it consist of? My vision of our soul is that it is neither created nor does it ever end. It is God who becomes infused in the human body, not a separate entity created by him. “God within us”. “I am in you and you are in Me.” What Jesus says.

“praise Jesus” quotes Aquinas:

And since it [the soul] cannot be made of pre-existing matter–whether corporeal, which would render it a corporeal being–or spiritual, which would involve the transmutation of one spiritual substance into another, we must conclude that it cannot exist except by creation.

I know everyone loves to quote and base their theology on Aquinas, but I must disagree with him on this one. First, I would say that the soul CAN be made of something pre-existing, not matter but spirit, the eternal God. No transmutation of a spiritual substance is involved because it is not changing; it was, is, and remains part of God. When we are created (conceived), we are created into His universe, His existence. And because we have been given the ability to understand and know Him, the God within us, the connection is made

We often refer to the “light of Christ”. Let’s say that the light of Christ inside us is like a light bulb we call our “soul”. And just like a light bulb is dark until the power is switched on, the filament in our bulb will only work if we let the power of God flow through us. The amount of light emitted from that bulb, light that can reach out to others, depends on us. For some people, that light is mostly dark. For others, those we consider saints, the light burns very bright, so bright that others can see it and feel its intensity.

I think my view of our soul is closer to what the Fathers of the Eastern Church believed and taught than what the Western Church ended up with. It is actually much “cleaner” and requires fewer complex subsidiary explanations for it to work with other doctrine (such as what happens to the souls of the unborn).

But I am not saying anyone else should accept what I say; if fact, you shouldn’t accept this or anything else without thinking it through and examining it for yourself, and determining whether it fits in with the Gospel message of Jesus.

 

[Katholish]

This denies that the body is actually “part of” who you are. It reverts to the Platonic that we are essentially souls trapped in a body which is worn by the soul like a set of clothes. While you might not personally put it in those terms, it is the consequence of your position.

For Thomas, the soul is the integral form of the body, and even while the soul is capable of existing part from the body, it remains the soul of that particular body. In fact, it is only because our souls are the forms of our particular bodies that they are individuated. Otherwise, there would be no principle of individuation which justify me saying that my soul is different from your soul. However, perhaps you don’t even maintain a difference since you claim that the soul is part of God in us.

Without Thomas’s explanation, the whole system falls apart very quickly.

 

[cerad]

The creation of the soul and ensoulment at the moment of conception is consistent with the statement that when we procreate we are participating in the creative process with God. God is there with us at that moment of conception.

The existence of twins rules out the possibility that a soul is infused at the moment of conception. Unless you accept the notion that a person could have multiple souls.

 

[Katholish]

The existence of twins rules out the possibility that a soul is infused at the moment of conception. Unless you accept the notion that a person could have multiple souls.

Or you could argue that there is only one person to begin with, and then the body of another forms, so the second soul only comes when there is a second body. (we are obviously just talking about identical twins and not fraternal twins here)

 

[tonyrey]

The existence of twins rules out the possibility that a soul is infused at the moment of conception. Unless you accept the notion that a person could have multiple souls.

Why? In the case of multiple births the soul is infused when a individual zygote appears.

 

[praise_Jesus_1]

chaunceygardner:

Thanks for your contribution to my post. I’m curious as to what you think about eternal damnation with your view of the soul. The reason I ask is because with the viewpoint that our soul is a part of God we run into an issue with the suffering of a soul in hell. With the viewpoint you presented one would be inclined to think that God is allowing for parts of him to be corrupted and eternally punished in hell.

Could you explain your thoughts on this matter? Thanks.

 

[JimG]

Or you could argue that there is only one person to begin with, and then the body of another forms, so the second soul only comes when there is a second body. (we are obviously just talking about identical twins and not fraternal twins here)

Or one could argue that God knows that the fertilization will actually result in two persons, and infuses two souls from the start.

 

[Joe_Kelley]

Or one could argue that God knows that the fertilization will actually result in two persons, and infuses two souls from the start.

I have no proof for that, but it is my favorite explanation. It is neat and complete. It shows that God knew what He was doing, even when we didn’t.

 

[chaunceygardner]

chaunceygardner:

Thanks for your contribution to my post. I’m curious as to what you think about eternal damnation with your view of the soul. The reason I ask is because with the viewpoint that our soul is a part of God we run into an issue with the suffering of a soul in hell. With the viewpoint you presented one would be inclined to think that God is allowing for parts of him to be corrupted and eternally punished in hell.

Could you explain your thoughts on this matter? Thanks.

You ARE sharp. No one else has projected my “view” to that point, until you. What I would tell you would probably go against almost any theology in Christiandom, but I will give the 50 cent tour of what I think.

I have thought through my ideas to that point, and you are correct in your supposition. To propose that our soul is part of God would mean that no soul could suffer in Hell. But to get to that point requires more explanation.

To go back a step or two, although our soul is a part of God (just as everything else in the universe is, both material and spiritual), it is also imprinted with our own individuality. This is sort of the opposite of the belief that we are imprinted by God in certain sacraments, such as baptism. Our physical body and our soul combine to form our uniqueness. I have used the idea of salt (or other substance) dissolving in water as an analogy. One is contained in the other, the salt is invisible within the water although it is still there. The salt (or soul) has become infused into the water (our bodies). When the water evaporates (our bodies die) the salt (our soul) appears as it was before. The problem is that it may no longer be “pure salt”, as it has been contaminated with “sin”, which represents all of what we have said or done (or not done) that are not in accord with God’s wishes.

No one ever dies “pure”. However, some will be much more contaminated than others. God, in His infinite mercy, will purify each and every soul. The traditional way of looking at that process was called “purgatory”. In my view, this process is one in which we are shown the “truth”, see everything we have done, both good and bad (reliving our lives) but in a way that shows how each moment of our lives measures up to the standards given us by God. These standards are pretty general, basically what Jesus said about the most important commandments and certain other teachings (“Do to others what you want them to do to you”). As this “video” of our lives passes before us we see all this, and I believe we experience the ecstasy of when we live by His commandments and the agony of when we don’t. I think God will show us everything we did wrong, and everyone we hurt, and we will understand why it was wrong and the pain it caused (whether physical, emotional, or spiritual). The same would apply to everything we did that was “good”, but with different results, of course.

When that is over, we will then be purified and enter into eternal bliss with Him (heaven). If this isn’t far out enough for you, then you must consider that this would mean everyone, and I do mean EVERYONE, would eventually be absorbed into the “loving embrace” of God. That would include the most evil people you could think of, because they will have been purified as well. Even Judas will make it. I say WILL EVENTUALLY because this purification process could take a hundred billion years in human time, so Judas is still undergoing this process, in my theology, and it could be “painful”. On the other hand, for someone like Mother Teresa her “purification” will be in a heartbeat.

Now, to confuse some even further, keep in mind that God’s time is not our time. That is clearly stated in scripture. So although the process might take a thousand years for me but only one week for you (within our own perceptions) both times could actually occur simultaneously on “God’s time”. Think of moments in your life when time seems to slow down, and other times speed up. With God, this speeding and slowing is potentially infinite, so although it all starts at different times, the “end time” is the same for all.

So this means two things:
One, there will be no “final judgment” since it is continuously occurring and it also has already occurred. This may seem like a contradiction, but since time does not exist for God (at least not our time), everything occurs together for Him.

Second (and this is the BIGGY), there is no “hell”. To answer your original question, there therefore is no “eternal damnation.” No one spends an eternity in hell. There are several things that led me to this, in addition to what I stated above. First, if God is infinite, encompassing everything seen and unseen, where could hell be? There is literally no place for it. And the Devil? Nahhh. If God is truly all-powerful, He could squash the devil with his pinkie (if He had one). If God CAN’T do that, that means beelzebub is EQUAL to God. We then have TWO Gods, one good and the other evil. Don’t buy that either.

Now some people out there will get VERY upset with this. Keep in mind I don’t expect anyone else to believe it. And understand that although I think everyone will be “saved” it will take some of us longer (and some of you will say it will take a very long time for me). This is the very first time I have written this out, although it has been developing in my mind for many years. It is not complete and will need some refinement as I consider all the ramifications. So any comments and questions (like those of "praise Jesus" , “Katholish” and others) really help in developing and refining my philosophy.

Thanks for listening. See you ALL in heaven (I hope and pray).