When is working too much a sin?

[joshkt79]

One of my uncle’s worked in the oilfield for about 22-23 years since he graduated high school. Didn’t save too much money at first, then he got married, had kids and decided to start saving and didn’t want to work in the oilfield forever and wanted to see his kids grow up. He continued to work and was always away. They didn’t live far from us growing up but I remember my aunt and cousins saying their dad was always at work. My dad told me that my uncle(his brother) was bringing home $150K and was saving about $40,000 of that per year.

My uncle always talked about stating his own lawn care business. He loved to cut grass. He had over half a million in the bank and his wife desperately wanted him home. He missed his son’s graduation. He kept saying “Just a few more hitches,I promise”. He wanted to buy a new truck.

On one hitch, he was on a rig platform when a pipe broke and came down, hitting him in the chest and killing him.

When you are so accustomed to a certain lifestyle, it’s very hard to get away from it. Even the ones that constantly get laid off, are right back on the rigs when it picks back up.

My only solution is to arrange your bills/debt to what you would make on a standard 40 hour work week. Any overtime is extra(and not always guaranteed).

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

http://www.wackybuttons.com/designcodes/110/1103231.jpg

When I want to Capri there were gift shops that sold little signs.

One had the sign:

Se ti viene voglia di lavorare, siediti che poi ti passa.

Meaning:

If the will to work overcomes you, sit down and it will pass.

 

[Sarcelle]

…still leaves him with 60 days, or roughly 2 months a year at home.

I don’t think we should be judgmental here. Some jobs demand long hours. In oilfield work, some of this is highly cyclical, so he may be out of work for a year or more whenever gas prices drop. And, when there is an oil boom, he probably has to put in long hours. Goes with the territory.

Sometimes, the material items - boats, etc. - can be fun for the family as well. When he is home, he might have the ability to do some really fun and exciting activities with his family. Work hard, play hard.

Again, we shouldn’t be judgmental. It’s really hard to know the real story from being an outsider looking in.

To answer your question, there is a point where work can become too much. Balance is key to life happiness. By the same token, I commend hard workers that put in long hours. We have far too many people in this country that do the exact opposite. Better to be a hard worker than a slacker, which to me, is much more sinful. We were meant to work and work hard.

If the oil industry is cyclical with booms and busts, the money used to buy all these luxury goods should have been put away in an emergency fund. Let the booms finance busts.

Plus, work should not come in the way of family.

 

[Xantippe]

Barely making it on $150,000??!?!?!?!?!

I’d feel like a millionaire on that salary.

In going back to my original post, I figured out that a $2,800/month mortgage for 30 years is a $500,000 home. No one that works in the oilfield should be living that type of lifestyle.

$2,800 is 67% of my monthly salary. I already don’t like paying a $700/month mortgage!

To be very fair to the OP’s friend, real estate and rental prices have gone nuts in a lot of those areas. Boom town prices can be CRAZY.

Here’s an example:

“Developers are building thousands of apartment units and homes, hoping to see the same demand that sent rents for two-bedroom apartments soaring to $2,800 a month—more than double what landlords got before a type of oil extraction known as hydraulic fracturing, or fracking, took off in the area starting around 2009.”

wsj.com/articles/oil-boom-swells-north-dakota-town-what-now-1426628879

Also, bear in mind that him not being home is expensive to his family in a variety of ways.

Having a second parent at home in the evening and on the weekend is a huge money saver for families. It’s when you don’t have that that everything gets very expensive, when you have to pay for stuff that in two-parent-at-home families gets handled in-house.

To give an example, back before Thanksgiving, we had a bit of a flood in our house. It was clean water, fortunately, but it hit our kitchen, part of the dining room, the garage, the laundry, one bedroom and a bath. It took a month of work for my husband (with some hours of help from an experienced hurricane remediator and his teenage kid) to take that all apart so it could dry out and then to put it back together (huge amounts of baseboards had to come off and then be put back on). Our total costs were in the neighborhood of “only” $1500 to pay for a little help, renting commercial dehumidifiers for around a week, buying half a dozen box fans, and all sorts of little odds and ends (like a humidity meter that you stick in the walls to see if they’re done yet). It was a terrible month, but it was (as these things go) cheap. Had that happened to the OP’s friend’s wife while he was gone or to the Middle Eastern contractor’s wife, it would have been 2X, maybe even 3X as expensive (depending how badly the remediation company decided to rip her off).

You often see articles about how expensive it would be to replace mom with employees–well the same goes for dad.

businessinsider.com/value-of-stay-at-home-moms-2013-5

 

[EasterJoy]

I would maybe remind him of the Bible verse regarding storing up for yourself treasures in Heaven, instead of on earth where moth and rust destroy. Sorry, I can’t remember the Bible book. Maybe this person is relying too much on toys instead of God to make himself happy, which unfortunately can be passed on to his kids.

*What profit is there for one to gain the whole world and forfeit his life? *Mark 8:36

There are many men who have gotten their desire to protect their families from poverty out of balance with their families’ need to have time with their dads.

I would ask this friend, “What good is a jet ski to a little boy who misses his dad at his baseball games? What good is a beautiful home to a woman who is tired of sleeping alone? If your wife wants you instead of all this stuff and your kids want you instead of all the stuff, who are you really working to please? What are you going to do if they do what you want and start valuing the money you can make for them more than they value having you around? Be careful about what you wish for. You may not like it when you get it. When your wife is divorcing you some day because you have finally taught her to value the money you can make over her relationship with you, don’t come grumbling to me.”

 

[bitterhope]

We don’t make nearly $150,000 a year and my husband is gone a lot. Many people ask me how I can put up with him being gone so much because even compared to many active duty soldiers he’s gone a lot due to the mos he has. But you know, he’s not doing it to get rich. He’s not greedy or selfish. Every penny we make is spent on basic expenses and not on extras. Both our vehicles are paid for and both have over 200,000 miles on them. He could possibly spend more time at home but in order to make sure his job is secure (the military is downsizing) he needs to make sure he remains essential. I can see how it would be possible to dig yourself in a hole that required the entire $150,000+ just to pay the bills so I’m not sure that it would be considered greed to spend tons of hours working for that amount. My husband and I talk about how life is going for us and evaluate our circumstances both financially and emotionally on a regular basis. If things ever seem not worth it to him, me or the kids then a new game plan needs to be drawn up. As long as things are going smoothly we keep with what we are doing.

 

[bitterhope]

To be very fair to the OP’s friend, real estate and rental prices have gone nuts in a lot of those areas. Boom town prices can be CRAZY.

Here’s an example:

“Developers are building thousands of apartment units and homes, hoping to see the same demand that sent rents for two-bedroom apartments soaring to $2,800 a month—more than double what landlords got before a type of oil extraction known as hydraulic fracturing, or fracking, took off in the area starting around 2009.”

wsj.com/articles/oil-boom-swells-north-dakota-town-what-now-1426628879

Also, bear in mind that him not being home is expensive to his family in a variety of ways.

Having a second parent at home in the evening and on the weekend is a huge money saver for families. It’s when you don’t have that that everything gets very expensive, when you have to pay for stuff that in two-parent-at-home families gets handled in-house.

To give an example, back before Thanksgiving, we had a bit of a flood in our house. It was clean water, fortunately, but it hit our kitchen, part of the dining room, the garage, the laundry, one bedroom and a bath. It took a month of work for my husband (with some hours of help from an experienced hurricane remediator and his teenage kid) to take that all apart so it could dry out and then to put it back together (huge amounts of baseboards had to come off and then be put back on). Our total costs were in the neighborhood of “only” $1500 to pay for a little help, renting commercial dehumidifiers for around a week, buying half a dozen box fans, and all sorts of little odds and ends (like a humidity meter that you stick in the walls to see if they’re done yet). It was a terrible month, but it was (as these things go) cheap. Had that happened to the OP’s friend’s wife while he was gone or to the Middle Eastern contractor’s wife, it would have been 2X, maybe even 3X as expensive (depending how badly the remediation company decided to rip her off).

You often see articles about how expensive it would be to replace mom with employees–well the same goes for dad.

businessinsider.com/value-of-stay-at-home-moms-2013-5

This isn’t always true either. Many of us that are accustomed to being the lone adult in the home handle all kinds of things on our own. Especially now that I have teenagers, we have fixed vehicles and appliances on our own and done home repairs without needing to hire someone. When dad is home he handles them, when he’s gone we are capable as well. This is part of the balancing act many families do. It’s not necessarily more expensive just because dad works a lot of hours or is gone extended amounts of time. It really depends on what the family is willing to learn to do. We enlist our kids to help and most of the wives around here do as well. Like I said, if a family isn’t able to do these things and live in the same way without dad, something needs to be adjusted. It would no longer be worth it to me if schools, field exercises, training, missions, deployments or any other separations became more expensive for our family. That would be a time my husband and I would be having a discussion about alternative forms of employment instead.

 

[EasterJoy]

We don’t make nearly $150,000 a year and my husband is gone a lot. Many people ask me how I can put up with him being gone so much because even compared to many active duty soldiers he’s gone a lot due to the mos he has. But you know, he’s not doing it to get rich. He’s not greedy or selfish. Every penny we make is spent on basic expenses and not on extras. Both our vehicles are paid for and both have over 200,000 miles on them. He could possibly spend more time at home but in order to make sure his job is secure (the military is downsizing) he needs to make sure he remains essential. I can see how it would be possible to dig yourself in a hole that required the entire $150,000+ just to pay the bills so I’m not sure that it would be considered greed to spend tons of hours working for that amount. My husband and I talk about how life is going for us and evaluate our circumstances both financially and emotionally on a regular basis. If things ever seem not worth it to him, me or the kids then a new game plan needs to be drawn up. As long as things are going smoothly we keep with what we are doing.

Right. It is not what “I” am doing. It is what “we” are doing.

 

[Xantippe]

This isn’t always true either. Many of us that are accustomed to being the lone adult in the home handle all kinds of things on our own. Especially now that I have teenagers, we have fixed vehicles and appliances on our own and done home repairs without needing to hire someone. When dad is home he handles them, when he’s gone we are capable as well. This is part of the balancing act many families do. It’s not necessarily more expensive just because dad works a lot of hours or is gone extended amounts of time. It really depends on what the family is willing to learn to do. We enlist our kids to help and most of the wives around here do as well. Like I said, if a family isn’t able to do these things and live in the same way without dad, something needs to be adjusted. It would no longer be worth it to me if schools, field exercises, training, missions, deployments or any other separations became more expensive for our family. That would be a time my husband and I would be having a discussion about alternative forms of employment instead.

Would you have been able to handle the flood example when you had three under five?

I have my doubts.

Also, come to think of it, haven’t you mostly rented?

Not being a homeowner makes a big difference.

 

[Xantippe]

This isn’t always true either. Many of us that are accustomed to being the lone adult in the home handle all kinds of things on our own.

What I’m arguing is that, all things being equal, given the same income and the same local resources, a family with two capable adults around evenings and weekends is going to have a lot more flexibility and be able to get a lot more done with the same income.

So, if your husband were around more, if your husband is helpful and involved, the two of you together (plus the kids) would be able to get more done than just you (plus the kids).

 

[bitterhope]

Would you have been able to handle the flood example when you had three under five?

I have my doubts.

Also, come to think of it, haven’t you mostly rented?

Not being a homeowner makes a big difference.

I do have 3 under 5 and yes, our house has flooded due to a hot water heater. I have rented in the past but currently we are not renting. There will always be somethings that no one can handle without hiring help whether or not there are both parents at home or not. It’s not a competition of who can do more, it’s just that sometimes people need to remember that if things are not working as well as they should something needs to change. And if they are working then probably it’s because both partners are on the same page and capable of doing what needs to be done. There is a real problem in a family when it takes more money to survive when one parent is gone then it does when both parents are home. There is no shame in not being good at single parenting. I honestly don’t think God intended for us to be good at it. But if your spouse thinks that since you aren’t handling it well and therefore he must provide more money so that you have more activities or stuff or can hire more things out–that is a problem. Many of us accustomed to this lifestyle do just fine because we are used to it, it’s how our life is, and if it ever becomes a problem we know out husbands are there for us and we will find a different way. To constantly need to eat out or hire help is a good sign that change needs to occur because obviously mom is exhausted and needs a break. That would be a time where dad needs to acknowledge that he is gone too much and it would start to border on sinful to continuously ignore the harm being done to his family in pursuit of money. Even military families have options in those circumstances. It may take a little time to work your way out if a contract or you may have to just practice patience, but a solution that respects and preserves your family must be in the works.

I don’t expect anyone to live like I do. I do honestly believe most people CAN do it if they truly WANT to. I’m nothing special, I promise you that. Most people have options and if they are able to use them–awesome!!! But it’s not true that those of us that are used to making it work can’t handle things in the same ways when our husband’s are gone as we can when they are home. I have lived around ladies my entire life that do have a good handle all things single parenthood throws our way.

 

[bitterhope]

I just saw your other post. Most of us don’t have any way to have a large enough income to support our families. My husband would take a huge pay cut if he left the Army and many other people it’s the same thing with their job. It would not make it easier because one if us would still always be gone working two jobs and rotating shifts in order to meet basic needs. It would be different, but no I can’t see it being easier. If I could be a stay at home mom and have my husband making the same money, yes that would be easier.

 

[marymary1975]

In our family, one of the grandpas (nearing 70 right now) probably has to be described as a workaholic.

As kids, it wasn’t that visible to the kids (because there was such an obvious financial need at the time), but now that grandpa is older and more financially settled and the grandkids are getting bigger and bigger, it has become painfully obvious that 1) grandpa only cares about his work (and a handful of personal interests connected to his work) and 2) grandpa isn’t that interested in the grandkids or cultivating personal relationships with them (although he is gratified to hear about their successes, particularly where it overlaps with his talents and interests).

I think sometimes people tell themselves “I’m doing this for my family,” when they’d do exactly the same stuff if they were single.

I am afraid that my FIL I’d a workaholic too. Your grandpa sounds similar to my FIL. Over 70, no need to work, moreover he shouldn’t be working (they owned a family business which got passed to the kids so FIL shouldn’t even be there) and seems to be still the only thing he thinks and wants to do. He seems not to want to cultivate a relationship with the grandkids or others and my BIL doesn’t know what to do to keep him out of the business.

Back in the day he had the excuse that he had to support a big family but now is kinds obvious that he would have been the same single with no kids.

 

[Giggly_Giraffe]

http://www.wackybuttons.com/designcodes/110/1103231.jpg

Karoshi

 

[PhiloMed]

I’ll weigh in since DH and I both work long and sometimes strange hours.

What is “normal” or typical # of work hours will vary based on one’s culture, circumstances and profession.

In my line of work, 60-80 hour work weeks are more or less typical. Anything less than that is considered a gift. I’ll be starting a new job in July that will require me to be away from the house from about 8am-6pm or working from home for those same hours and I’ll likely be doing some email/computer/check-in by phone work from home after the kids go to bed. It’s a long day but I enjoy it and I think my family benefits from it in many ways.

Likewise, my husband has a job that requires travel for 1-2 days/week and long days when he is at the office or working from home.

Do I think it’s too much? No. Our family seems happy right now. The kids seem happy. We have a good childcare and support structure and my new job will allow us to live much closer to the grandparents, aunts and uncles. I say “right now” because like anything in life, we’re constantly re-evaluating what is best for our family.

We could work less and move to a much less expensive state, I could stay at home with the kids and DH could take a job where he doesn’t have to travel and is home by 5 or 6 every day. The trade off would likely be leaving our comfortable home and moving far away from family. Less support nearby. It would also mean putting less away in retirement so DH would either have to work for more years or we would have to change our retirement plans.

I’d also echo some other posters in saying that how far an income can stretch will vary significantly by state and even region within that state. $100,000 seems like a lot of money until you consider what the actual take home pay is after federal, state and property taxes, average cost of even a moderate sized home in an area, and sales taxes on things like clothing in some states.

 

[Giggly_Giraffe]

The gentleman sounds similar to my FIL who is a retired miner specializing in safety. A hard worker indeed who desires respect for what he provides for his family.

However, my FIL has little knowledge of his family. Now retired, he is able to spend time with his grandchildren and takes pleasure in this gift. I often listen to his stories about his life. What I knoticed most is his family is absent from his stories. There are stories about homeless people he helped in San Francisco. There are stories about priests he meet in Austraila and Brazil. Stories about traveling across Italy on foot. Stories about cultures and how they form. Once in a while there is a proud story about his oldest son. It is like pulling teeth to get a story about my husband. At birthdays, I especially probe both my MIl and FIL about my husband with little or no avail. Then I probe my husband and he reverts to stories about his dad. Very weird! Finally, when I started inquiring my BIL (who also had little to share about his baby brother) my FIL started sharing a few stories about my husband in the hospital. This is the only story they all seem to recall about my husband.

My FIL moved to Australia for a mining job when my husband gradulated college. This situation had my husband remain living with his mother, despite a respectable salary. When my husbands father returned home (after threats from my husband) he retired. Well, his wife was accustomed to spending 80% of their income, and they went broke in seven years. My husband has been supporting their life style based off his mothers preferences ever since. His mother is a male basher, and often there has been scary arguments my husband has witnessed. Mostly due to the time FIL was away from MIl. Then when he suddenly appeared back into the family life, she has been unable to cope with his presence. Well, there was my husband who worked 60-80 hours a week with a home of his own (now that dad lived at home) His house became a second house for his parents because they could not get along in the three story, five bedroom, four bathroom, house they live in. When I was dating my husband I suspected he was still living with his parents (or with his brother) but could not come to tell me. This thought was because of the decor’, pictures of his brother and SIL, and no pictures of his life. Idk why this family holds up BIL over my husband, but they do (kinda a Everybody loves Raymond scenario). The. In my first years of marriage, MIl & FIL kept coming over like this was still their second home. MIL was distressed that I picked my own pictures, Nick-nacks, and decore. Very hard. Now, my husband has become his father, and probably will never have stories about his beautiful daughters. I hope I can change this for the better.

 

[Xantippe]

The gentleman sounds similar to my FIL who is a retired miner specializing in safety. A hard worker indeed who desires respect for what he provides for his family.

However, my FIL has little knowledge of his family. Now retired, he is able to spend time with his grandchildren and takes pleasure in this gift. I often listen to his stories about his life. What I knoticed most is his family is absent from his stories. There are stories about homeless people he helped in San Francisco. There are stories about priests he meet in Austraila and Brazil. Stories about traveling across Italy on foot. Stories about cultures and how they form. Once in a while there is a proud story about his oldest son. It is like pulling teeth to get a story about my husband. At birthdays, I especially probe both my MIl and FIL about my husband with little or no avail. Then I probe my husband and he reverts to stories about his dad. Very weird! Finally, when I started inquiring my BIL (who also had little to share about his baby brother) my FIL started sharing a few stories about my husband in the hospital. This is the only story they all seem to recall about my husband.

My FIL moved to Australia for a mining job when my husband gradulated college. This situation had my husband remain living with his mother, despite a respectable salary. When my husbands father returned home (after threats from my husband) he retired. Well, his wife was accustomed to spending 80% of their income, and they went broke in seven years. My husband has been supporting their life style based off his mothers preferences ever since. His mother is a male basher, and often there has been scary arguments my husband has witnessed. Mostly due to the time FIL was away from MIl. Then when he suddenly appeared back into the family life, she has been unable to cope with his presence. Well, there was my husband who worked 60-80 hours a week with a home of his own (now that dad lived at home) His house became a second house for his parents because they could not get along in the three story, five bedroom, four bathroom, house they live in. When I was dating my husband I suspected he was still living with his parents (or with his brother) but could not come to tell me. This thought was because of the decor’, pictures of his brother and SIL, and no pictures of his life. Idk why this family holds up BIL over my husband, but they do (kinda a Everybody loves Raymond scenario). The. In my first years of marriage, MIl & FIL kept coming over like this was still their second home. MIL was distressed that I picked my own pictures, Nick-nacks, and decore. Very hard. Now, my husband has become his father, and probably will never have stories about his beautiful daughters. I hope I can change this for the better.

Wow.

That’s a good story.

I hope you’re able to break this particular cycle, because it’s a bummer.

Here’s “Cat’s in the Cradle.”

youtube.com/watch?v=KUwjNBjqR-c