When it comes to salvation, God does not pull from the pool of "people who do not do good"

[De_Maria]

There are people who say, even Catholics who say, “good works are of no avail for salvation.” But this is far from true. The truth is that when it comes to salvation, God does not pull from the pool of "people who do not do good works. This is the very first criteria that God demands and this is evident from the Parable of the Sheep and the Goats. (Matt 25:31-46).

The Sheep did good and God saved them.
The Goats did not do good and God punished them.

None of the Goats did good. Therefore none of them were saved, they all perished.

There’s another verse which powerfully shows as well. Titus 3:5

Titus 3:5 not because of any righteous deeds we had done
but because of his mercy,
he saved us through the bath of rebirth
and renewal by the holy Spirit,

Many people read this and say, “you see, righteous deeds are not important for salvation”. But look at it more closely. The Apostle assumes that those who are saved have done righteous deeds. The deeds themselves do not save us. But no one who does not do righteous deeds is even being considered for salvation.

Do you see what I mean, jelly bean?

 

[adamhovey1988]

I think, the confusion comes more or less from people who believe that, Catholics don’t think Faith plays a role in Salvation. Of course faith plays a role in Salvation, those works mean nothing if we haven’t got faith. I mean, in obituaries when someone dies it’s even called the Catholic faith.

 

[Wesrock]

There are people who say, even Catholics who say, “good works are of no avail for salvation.” But this is far from true. The truth is that when it comes to salvation, God does not pull from the pool of "people who do not do good works.

I would be very careful with how you phrase this. You may give the impression that you need to have done good works alone without God in order to merit the gift of salvation, which we know is not what the Church teaches. My understanding of what you’re saying is that all of the saved are people who will respond positively to the free gift of grace, whatever their past. They are the ones who will cooperate.

 

[Roseeurekacross]

The truth is that when it comes to salvation, God does not pull from the pool of "people who do not do good works.

Explain how Jesus called St Paul to a crucial mission of being the Apostle to the Gentiles then?

At that point St Paul, a Jewish Pharisee , most likely a member of the Sanhedrin, was running around persecuting Christians. In fact Jesus said to Paul, ’ Saul why are you persecuting me’

 

[RandomAlias]

Perhaps it is all about love. Love God and love one another. The goats were condemned because of their failure to love.

 

[Zaccheus]

Salvation is the free gift of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

“Being justified freely by his grace, through the redemption, that is in Christ Jesus”. Romans 3: 24.

Salvation is the free gift of God. We cannot earn it or merit it. But once it is offered us we can accept or reject it.
Accepting it requires that we have faith.

“But without faith it is impossible to please God. For he that cometh to God, must believe that he is, and is a rewarder to them that seek him.” Hebrews 11: 6.

But faith without works is dead.

“For even as the body without the spirit is dead; so also faith without works is dead” James 2: 26.

We cannot merit salvation through our works; but what kind of faith is it that refuses to try to obey God?
“For I was hungry, and you gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me to drink”. Matthew 25: 35
“Amen I say to you, as long as you did it to one of these my least brethren, you did it to me.” Matthew 25: 40.

Nor does God require that we do great works in order to be saved.
“And whosoever shall give to drink to one of these little ones a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, amen I say to you, he shall not lose his reward.” Matthew 10:42.

“And Jesus sitting over against the treasury, beheld how the people cast money into the treasury, and many that were rich cast in much. And there came a certain poor widow, and she cast in two mites, which make a farthing. And calling his disciples together, he saith to them: Amen I say to you, this poor widow hath cast in more than all they who have cast into the treasury.” Mark 12: 41-43.

 

[De_Maria]

The truth is that when it comes to salvation, God does not pull from the pool of "people who do not do good works.

Explain how Jesus called St Paul to a crucial mission of being the Apostle to the Gentiles then?

Sure.

At that point St Paul, a Jewish Pharisee , most likely a member of the Sanhedrin, was running around persecuting Christians. In fact Jesus said to Paul, ’ Saul why are you persecuting me’

You’ve already named a few of the reasons why Jesus pulled St. Paul.

1. St. Paul was a Pharisee. That means that he believed in God and kept the Commandments.
2. Although St. Paul was running around persecuting Christians, he was not doing from the standpoint of hatred of Christians but because of his zeal and love for God. As Jesus said:

John 16:2 They will expel you from the synagogues; in fact, the hour[a] is coming when everyone who kills you will think he is offering worship to God.

1. St. Paul was not justified on the spot. Before he was justified, he had to prove his faith in Christ by obeying Christ’s commands.

> Acts 22:10…The Lord answered me, ‘Get up and go into Damascus, and there you will be told about everything appointed for you to do.’ 11 Since I could see nothing because of the brightness of that light, I was led by hand by my companions and entered Damascus.
_> _
> 12 “A certain Ananias, a devout observer of the law, and highly spoken of by all the Jews who lived there, 13 came to me and stood there and said, ‘Saul, my brother, regain your sight.’ And at that very moment I regained my sight and saw him. 14 Then he said, ‘The God of our ancestors designated you to know his will, to see the Righteous One, and to hear the sound of his voice; 15 for you will be his witness before all to what you have seen and heard. 16 Now, why delay? Get up and have yourself baptized and your sins washed away, calling upon his name.’

Presumably, once released, Saul could have gone in any direction. But he didn’t. He obeyed Christ, found Ananias and was Baptized calling on Christ’s name.

I hope that helps.

 

[De_Maria]

Salvation is the free gift of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

Salvation is a gift, but it is not free. It is merited by those who obey Christ:

Hebrews 5:9 and when he was made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him,

“Being justified freely by his grace, through the redemption, that is in Christ Jesus”. Romans 3: 24.

All we have to do is go back to Romans 2:13 to prove that your interpretation is wrong.

Romans 2:13 For it is not those who hear the law who are just in the sight of God; rather, those who observe the law will be justified.

St. Paul builds upon Romans 2:13 when he speaks about Romans 3:24. What he is saying is that our works do not justify us. God does. But He does not justify those who do not do good works.

Salvation is the free gift of God. We cannot earn it or merit it.

Yes, in fact we must merit it in the eyes of God or we are lost.

Philippians 2:12 So then, my beloved, obedient as you have always been, not only when I am present but all the more now when I am absent, work out your salvation with fear and trembling.[a]

But once it is offered us we can accept or reject it.
Accepting it requires that we have faith.

But not faith alone. Our faith must be accompanied by works of love.

“But without faith it is impossible to please God. For he that cometh to God, must believe that he is, and is a rewarder to them that seek him.” Hebrews 11: 6.

Read the rest. All the examples are of people who obeyed God in response to faith. There is not one example of an individual who proclaimed himself saved by faith alone.

But faith without works is dead.

“For even as the body without the spirit is dead; so also faith without works is dead” James 2: 26.

Amen!

We cannot merit salvation through our works;

We had better, or we are lost.

but what kind of faith is it that refuses to try to obey God?
“For I was hungry, and you gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me to drink”. Matthew 25: 35
“Amen I say to you, as long as you did it to one of these my least brethren, you did it to me.” Matthew 25: 40.

And thus, the Sheep merited salvation in God’s eyes.

Nor does God require that we do great works in order to be saved.
“And whosoever shall give to drink to one of these little ones a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, amen I say to you, he shall not lose his reward.” Matthew 10:42.

But He does require works.

“And Jesus sitting over against the treasury, beheld how the people cast money into the treasury, and many that were rich cast in much. And there came a certain poor widow, and she cast in two mites, which make a farthing. And calling his disciples together, he saith to them: Amen I say to you, this poor widow hath cast in more than all they who have cast into the treasury.” Mark 12: 41-43.

[/quote]

Yeah and amen! You just proved the Doctrine of Indulgences.

 

[Roseeurekacross]

your argument is

God does not pull from the pool of "people who do not do good works.

St Paul is a prime example of someone God calls for a mission. He had been destroying the early church and trying to destroy the faith.

Your statement had nothing in it about people who had no faith.

St. Paul was a Pharisee. That means that he believed in God and kept the Commandments.
Although St. Paul was running around persecuting Christians, he was not doing from the standpoint of hatred of Christians but because of his zeal and love for God.

Firstly, St Paul, as Saul was torturing and murdering. He was breaking a few commandments. There was no war, he was just killing and torturing Christians or Jewish christians
The reasons you gave above introduce a completely new argument.

Your argument now is both with no faith and not doing good works, a person won’t come to salvation. They won’t be ‘pulled’ (?)
you are claiming non believers not doing good works won’t be saved.
The word ‘pulled’ is curious in itself. Pulled from what?

But let’s just sit and think for a moment of the non believers who did no good, that eventually found God.
I would start with the Viking conversions, the conversions in the Roman and Hellenistic world, then moving into modern times, so many saints. Pontius Pilate is a Saint of the Ethiopian Churches. He converted.
(And please, let’s NOT cut and paste swags of quotes. Let’s us our own words.)
Of St Paul.
Given you quoted swags of Bible on his sudden what he himself named his call.
Now St Paul’s mission was evangelising, in building the Church.
People who did not believe were Converted. That’s what salvation is all about- conversion.

Jesus said He came not to call the righteous, but to call sinners. Jesus Himself in this statement is saying salvation is open to those who are currently doing no good. The sinners that find Conversion to God.

St Paul took many years to fully realise what it was all about. He followed the law meticulously. Obeyed the law of God. He was zealous and from all accounts an imposing character, very formidable.
His view of salvation, initially, was the chronology narrative - creation, the fall, the coming of the Messiah, Jesus. This was how the Jewish world thought.
Years of reflection, and especially after St Paul,was jailed, he came to the full realisation of who Jesus was, and understanding of the mystery of the incarnation.

The crucial understanding for St Paul, being the Word became flesh and dwelt among us. Jesus, the first and the last. That God had a plan before creation, we were already thought of and involved as part of that plan. Before creation.

Things shifted to Christ at the centre, the focal point for, and the centre of God’s plan. One of the things Vat 11 did was to reaffirm that ’ the Lord is the goal of human history , ,the joy of every heart…

God does not want to lose anyone. Jesus said He had not lost one of His charges, given Him by God.

Salvation is open to everyone. Those with faith, or those who initially have no faith.

 

[De_Maria]

your argument is

God does not pull from the pool of "people who do not do good works.

Correct.

St Paul is a prime example of someone God calls for a mission. He had been destroying the early church and trying to destroy the faith.

False. Abraham was also called for a mission. Abraham was not out destroying anything.

Your statement had nothing in it about people who had no faith.

The assumption is that people who do not do works of righteousness, have no faith:

Firstly, St Paul, as Saul was torturing and murdering. He was breaking a few commandments.
There was no war, he was just killing and torturing Christians or Jewish christians

On the contrary, Saul was doing precisely as he was instructed by God’s law:

Deuteronomy 13:1 If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder, … 5 And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; …So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee.

To the faithful Jew, all the Christians fit this description.

… Your argument now is both with no faith and not doing good works, a person won’t come to salvation. They won’t be ‘pulled’ (?)

On the contrary, have you ever read in Scripture:

Revelation 3:16 So, because you are lukewarm, neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth.

Notice that those who are hot and cold are acceptable to God. But not those who ride the fence and do nothing. Saul was not a fence rider. He was sincerely doing what he believe to be God’s will.

I know, you’ll probably bring up the saying that the “road to hell is paved with good intentions”. But that is an error. God deals with good intentions and they are acceptable to Him. Just as bad intentions can be mortal sins. Good intentions are virtues.

Matthew 5:28 But I say to you, everyone who looks at a woman with lust has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

you are claiming non believers not doing good works won’t be saved.

I am claiming that those who do not do good works, whether they be believers or not, won’t be saved.

The word ‘pulled’ is curious in itself. Pulled from what?

The set of people who do good works. See the Parable of the sheep and goats. The sheep are the set of people who did good works. The goats are the set of people who did not do any good works.

Which people does Jesus save?

But let’s just sit and think for a moment of the non believers who did no good, that eventually found God.
I would start with the Viking conversions, the conversions in the Roman and Hellenistic world, then moving into modern times, so many saints. Pontius Pilate is a Saint of the Ethiopian Churches. He converted.

What’s the point? You claim that they did no good works? Let me ask you, did they love their moms and dads? Or which good work do you claim they did not do?

cont’d

 

[RandomAlias]

That 3200 character limit is killing me too!

 

[De_Maria]

cont’d with Roseeurekacross

(And please, let’s NOT cut and paste swags of quotes. Let’s us our own words.)
Of St Paul.

You don’t like to read the Word of God? On what authority do you want to hang your conclusion? Your own? Who are you that I should follow you rather than the Word of God?

Given you quoted swags of Bible on his sudden what he himself named his call.
Now St Paul’s mission was evangelising, in building the Church.
People who did not believe were Converted. That’s what salvation is all about- conversion.

Not on topic. The topic here is who is justified and saved. According to the Teaching of Jesus Christ, through His Church, it is those who obey His Father’s will:

Matthew 7: 21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven,[a] but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.

Jesus said He came not to call the righteous, but to call sinners.

Did He call sinners to remain in sin? Or did He also say:

Mark 1:14 After John had been arrested,[h] Jesus came to Galilee proclaiming the gospel of God: 15 “This is the time of fulfillment. The kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the gospel.”

Jesus Himself in this statement is saying salvation is open to those who are currently doing no good. The sinners that find Conversion to God.

Sinners who repent. Is repentance a work? Or is it a mere statement? Here are two famous biblical converts speaking:

Luke 19:8 But Zacchaeus stood there and said to the Lord, “Behold, half of my possessions, Lord, I shall give to the poor, and if I have extorted anything from anyone I shall repay it four times over.”

Acts 26:20 On the contrary, first to those in Damascus and in Jerusalem and throughout the whole country of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, I preached the need to repent and turn to God, and to do works giving evidence of repentance.

St Paul took many years to fully realise what it was all about. He followed the law meticulously. Obeyed the law of God. He was zealous and from all accounts an imposing character, very formidable.

Now you’re understanding.

His view of salvation, initially, was the chronology narrative - creation, the fall, the coming of the Messiah, Jesus. This was how the Jewish world thought.
Years of reflection, and especially after St Paul,was jailed, he came to the full realisation of who Jesus was, and understanding of the mystery of the incarnation.

Perhaps. Although, it doesn’t seem to have taken him an exceedingly long time. He began to preach very soon after conversion.

The crucial understanding for St Paul, being the Word became flesh…Jesus said He had not lost one of His charges, given Him by God.

None of this disproves what I’ve said.

Salvation is open to everyone.

If they obey Christ.

Those with faith, or those who initially have no faith.

If they keep the Commandments and do the will of God.

 

[Roseeurekacross]

False. Abraham was also called for a mission. Abraham was not out destroying anything.

What? We are discussing St Paul, not Abraham.

The assumption is that people who do not do works of righteousness, have no faith:

The assumption of who? About what? Is this your personal opinion/assumption? Ever heard of sinners? Even Pope Francis says he is a sinner.

Saul was doing precisely as he was instructed by God’s law:

Deuteronomy 13:1 If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder, … 5 And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; …So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee.

You are grossly mis quoting. You are also taking that out of context.
And St Paul wasn’t running around murdering and torturing Prophets, now was he. Ask yourself who were his targets?

On the contrary, have you ever read in Scripture:

Revelation 3:16 So, because you are lukewarm, neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth.

Notice that those who are hot and cold are acceptable to God. But not those who ride the fence and do nothing. Saul was not a fence rider. He was sincerely doing what he believe to be God’s will.

Thomas rode the fence for quite sometime. In fact he was doubting.
A lukewarm person still has faith and is not by definition , your definition 'doing no good’
The lukewarm do not necessarily do good or bad, but they do love ! (See your last point)

I am claiming that those who do not do good works, whether they be believers or not, won’t be saved.

You can’t change your argument now to believers or not.

We , my dear, have absolutely no idea who will or not, reach heaven. That is up to God. Or did you forget that?

The set of people who do good works. See the Parable of the sheep and goats. The sheep are the set of people who did good works. The goats are the set of people who did not do any good works.

No, that’s your personal interpretation of a parable.

What’s the point? You claim that they did no good works? Let me ask you, did they love their moms and dads? Or which good work do you claim they did not do?

Ok so according to this, now, everyone who loves someone is doing a good work. So given unless we are mentally unwell psychopaths, we all love. Even SSM couples. So we all get saved. Given, love is a good work in your book.

Good one mate! Is this a treatise on why we should love?

 

[RandomAlias]

De Maria, you quote Scripture too selectively. In most of the instances that you cited, it was not the works themselves that justified or saved, but the faith (and love) behind the righteous works.

For now I will examine only Paul’s letter to the Romans, which you quoted as follows:

(Romans 2:13) For it is not those who hear the law who are just in the sight of God; rather, those who observe the law will be justified.

This is part of a larger passage where Paul reprimands those among the Jews who possessed the law as part of their tradition (“hear the law”) but did not keep it. Let’s read on:

(Romans 3:23-24) all have sinned and are deprived of the glory of God. They are justified freely by his grace through the redemption in Christ Jesus…
(3:27) What occasion is there then for boasting? It is ruled out. On what principle, that of works? No, rather on the principle of faith.
(3:31) Are we then annulling the law by this faith? Of course not! On the contrary, we are supporting the law.

That last verse tells us that faith leads one to do good works.

In Romans 4, Paul compares works to wages, in contrast to God’s free gift:

(Romans 4:2-4) Indeed, if Abraham was justified on the basis of his works, he has reason to boast; but this was not so in the sight of God. For what does the scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” A worker’s wage is credited not as a gift, but as something due.
(4:13-16) It was not through the law that the promise was made to Abraham and his descendants that he would inherit the world, but through the righteousness that comes from faith. For if those who adhere to the law are the heirs, faith is null and the promise is void. For the law produces wrath; but where there is no law, neither is there violation. For this reason, it depends on faith, so that it may be a gift, and the promise may be guaranteed to all his descendants, not to those who only adhere to the law but to those who follow the faith of Abraham…

And speaking of wages vs. gift…

(Romans 6:23) For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

This brings up an interesting question. If bad works are wages for death, and good works are wages for justification, could our bad and good works cancel out on the scales of justice? Could any amount of sin on one side of the scale be overcome by a sufficient amount of good works on the other side of the scale? No! To believe this would be to claim that we have a power as great as God, the power to save ourselves.

If you use an online Bible, search Romans for the words faith, believe, belief, unbelief and works.

Here are other passages which I found helpful:
Romans 9:30-33
Romans 10:1-13
Romans 11:13-24

And one about love
Romans 13:8-10

(now @3200 char limit)

 

[Roseeurekacross]

You don’t like to read the Word of God? On what authority do you want to hang your conclusion? Your own? Who are you that I should follow you rather than the Word of God?

Cherry picking the Word is an abuse of the Word. Using the Word to win a point is an abuse of the Word when it is taken out of its context, and used as fundamentalist without respect for all its belongings. Also,

If a person can’t discuss something in their own words, their discussion doesnt have legs. It’s weak. It’s got holes in it’s knowledge and wisdom.

 

[Roseeurekacross]

Now you’re understanding.

Actually, you have totally missed the point in this conversion story and how it changed the salvation chronology narrative.

Unfortunately. Because it’s crucial to our Christocentric Faith.

 

[De_Maria]

False. Abraham was also called for a mission. Abraham was not out destroying anything.

What? We are discussing St Paul, not Abraham.

You said:

St Paul is a prime example of someone God calls for a mission. He had been destroying the early church and trying to destroy the faith.

I’m proving that he’s not a “prime example”. God calls men from all walks of life.

The assumption of who? About what? Is this your personal opinion/assumption?

It’s a Teaching of our faith. I’m assuming you’re Catholic.

CCC Paragraph # 1815 The gift of faith remains in one who has not sinned against it. But "faith apart from works is dead"

Ever heard of sinners? Even Pope Francis says he is a sinner.

Has he done any good works?

cont’d

 

[De_Maria]

cont’d with Rosee…

The lukewarm do not necessarily do good or bad, but they do love ! (See your last point)

Then why does God spit them out of His mouth?

You can’t change your argument now to believers or not.

I haven’t. Read the OP again.

We , my dear, have absolutely no idea who will or not, reach heaven. That is up to God. Or did you forget that?

First, I’m a man and don’t like to be called “dear” (except by my wife).
Second, I’m surprised that you don’t realize that it is God who decides whether we have done good or not. If you read the swathe of Scriptures that I posted, you will see that Jesus is the one who decides that the Sheep have done well and Jesus is the one who pronounces the condemnation of the Goats.

No, that’s your personal interpretation of a parable.

On the contrary, all of my explanations of Scripture are based upon Catholic rules of interpretation.

CCC#1038 The resurrection of all the dead, "of both the just and the unjust,"623 will precede the Last Judgment. This will be “the hour when all who are in the tombs will hear [the Son of man’s] voice and come forth, those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment.”

Ok so according to this, now, everyone who loves someone is doing a good work.

Love is a good work.

Exodus 20:12 [a]Honor your father and your mother, that you may have a long life in the land the Lord your God is giving you.

So given unless we are mentally unwell psychopaths, we all love.
Even SSM couples. So we all get saved. Given, love is a good work in your book.

Uh, you probably don’t realize that you have proven my premise. You see, you have admitted that good works are necessary for salvation. However, your conclusion is incomplete.

1. Yes, it is true that if that were the only work which God required, the Vikings would be saved.
2. since you are not really concerned with searching for truth, but only with trying to justify yourself, you have neglected the following.
   a. The Parable of the Sheep and the Goats is not the entire Teaching of what must be done to get into heaven.
   b. Jesus also says:

Matthew 5:46 For if you love those who love you, what recompense will you have?

Thus, there is no reward for merely loving one’s father and mother. The Law also says:

Matthew 19:19 honor your father and your mother’; and ‘you shall love your neighbor as yourself.’”

c. You haven’t made any effort to disprove that the vikings did not love their neighbors.

The other problem with your premature conclusion, is that
a. Parables are allegorical stories that represent a moral lesson.
b. In other words, they are not taken literally. They are understood in light of all moral Teaching.
c. Therefore, the Goats are not understood to be totally bereft of good works. But they are understood to be so engrossed with self love that they will not consider helping their neighbors in need.

Good one mate! Is this a treatise on why we should love?

It is, actually. You see, love is a righteous work. God does not save those who do not act with love towards their neighbor.

 

[De_Maria]

Cherry picking the Word is an abuse of the Word.

On the contrary, I “cherry pick” the verses in Scripture which have to do with the subject being discussed.

Using the Word to win a point is an abuse of the Word when it is taken out of its context, and used as fundamentalist without respect for all its belongings.

Your task is to prove that I’ve used the verses of Scripture out of context. Your mere say so does not constitute proof.

Also,
If a person can’t discuss something in their own words, their discussion doesnt have legs. It’s weak. It’s got holes in it’s knowledge and wisdom.

But I do discuss these subjects in my own words. I merely provide the support of Scripture and the Catechism. You see, unlike you, I’m passing on Catholic Teaching. I’m not making things up as I go along.

 

[Wesrock]

It is, actually. You see, love is a righteous work. God does not save those who do not act with love towards their neighbor.

I fear you’re putting the cart before the horse here. No righteous act can be done apart from God prompting us to that act to begin with, and God does not prompt us to good acts based on any passed merit. It is true that someone who persists in sins will not find themselves saved, it’s not as if God plucks people for salvation without regard to whether they respond positively to His grace, but neither does He only offer graces to people who merit it, as if they could merit it apart from Him. God could very well convert someone who, prior to conversion, never performed a charitable act in his whole live. That gift of conversion (and eventually salvation) is not granted only to people who earn it in some way prior to initial justification.