When Jesus died

[famdigy]

Jastor,

using the toilet, eat, have bodily functions is perfect, God created us to be this way, imperfect is being constipated.LOL.

Ufamtobie

Our understanding of God is that he is superior to everything and is Omnipotent, all-powerful, this implies he is indipendent which you can agree to. Yet in the example of Jesus we have a person who is dependent on many things, Air to breath otherwise he dies, food to eat otherwise he starves. Internally the human body is interdependant on each other. he is composed of interdependant organs where if one fails, he dies. This is imperfection and not consistent with the perfect God.

 

[LilyM]

Our understanding of God is that he is superior to everything and is Omnipotent, all-powerful, this implies he is indipendent which you can agree to. Yet in the example of Jesus we have a person who is dependent on many things, Air to breath otherwise he dies, food to eat otherwise he starves. Internally the human body is interdependant on each other. he is composed of interdependant organs where if one fails, he dies. This is imperfection and not consistent with the perfect God.

My sister for several years was an independent woman, lived by herself and worked for herself. Yet she willingly chose to take on a state of dependence out of love - she married and had children, and relied on her husband to work and earn the money to support her, while she stayed at home and looked after the children. Now the children are grown, she is working again part-time.

Was she any less perfect, was she in any way inferior, being dependent in her marriage than she was before, being independent and single? Of course not. So when God, out of love, chooses to become dependent as human beings are, that makes Him no less perfect than He is when independent.

 

[abucs]

I agree with LilyM.

Muslims seem to have a very narrow view of God.

they seem to think -

If God appears as a burning bush then that is him in his entirety.
If God appears as a human being then that is his in his entirety.

This is not our concept of God. Hence the idea of the trinity.

I go back to my original post. As soon as you have God appearing on earth you have problems with his limitations if you think of him in a narrow way.

So then you can say God cannot appear on Earth - but then that also points to a very weak God. It seems a bit silly for God to make the universe and then we tell him he can’t appear in it otherwise he is no longer great.

The most powerful way God can interact with us is to be incarnated on earth as one like us. That means temporarily the form he takes - Jesus, is prone to human weaknesses.
But Jesus is not God in his entirety but an expression or incarnation of God.

The very fact that God would do this for us, and that humankind treated him so ‘inhumanely’, creates a permanent bond between God and man. We are sorry for our sins to a loving humble God. We know God and the debt we have to him. We don’t love him because he is a great engineer, or he has all this power over us or will promise to kill everyone not like us, or who doesn’t pray our prayers - that is very childish.

God fulfilled the Jewish role of the Messiah to create His new Covenent with the whole world in the person of Jesus Christ and rose from the dead to prove it. He did this through the Jewish idea of sacrifice for sins - taken from the Old Jewish Law. God took on the role of the sacrificed. He couldn’t do this without taking the human form in its apparent weaknesses.

The most powerful message from God humankind has ever receiced is in the person of Jesus Christ. And God is great enough to be able to be God in Heaven and also incarnated on earth as Jesus. Unless you think God is not so great ?

 

[ralphinal]

I do need to say that I am sorry. I did not mean to be sarcastic. The OP struck me as typical Muslim bait, not wanting to discuss and learn but to show us how wrong and damned we were. I see that may not have been his intent. I ask his forgiveness.

 

[deb1]

How amusing, you can’t answer his simple question so you attack his character. There’s no need to attack Jastor here conflicted1, just answer the question. How can God who indipendent of need become needful himself, wouldn’t that invalidate his perfection?

Not at all. This is part of the wonder of Christianity. God loves us so much that he became one of us! That is beautiful. He took on all those ‘indignities’ of our human body that seem to disturb some people.

The Incarnation, God made flesh, has thrilled and lifted up Christians for two thousand years. How humbling to us humans that God, the same God who put the universe in motion, loves us so greatly that he was willing to take on our form.

 

[deb1]

Our understanding of God is that he is superior to everything and is Omnipotent, all-powerful, this implies he is indipendent which you can agree to. Yet in the example of Jesus we have a person who is dependent on many things, Air to breath otherwise he dies, food to eat otherwise he starves. Internally the human body is interdependant on each other. he is composed of interdependant organs where if one fails, he dies. This is imperfection and not consistent with the perfect God.

He took on the ‘indignities’ of the human form out of pure love for us. Everything you say only makes Jesus seem the more great to me.

Do all Muslims have such a negative view of their bodies as is being presented here?

 

[inJESUS]

He took on the ‘indignities’ of the human form out of pure love for us. Everything you say only makes Jesus seem the more great to me.

Do all Muslims have such a negative view of their bodies as is being presented here?

Actually the Quran says humans are created in the best mould and Allah swears by creation, Allah even swears by horses and their hooves which, according to the Bible, elevates creation to the level of the Creator. Nevertheless, we see Allah swearing by animals’ hooves, and why not by donkeys, but when it comes to humanity, Muslims call human functions “imperfections”. I agree as well that the OP stuck me as typically islamic arguments because only Muslims use the argument that human functions are imperfections, when in fact a human is no human if he does not eat and sleep and go to the toilet.

besides, Muslims insist that Jesus is a human, and we agree, but when it comes to Jesus’ divinity, they suddenly forget about Jesus’ humanity when in fact, Jesus having the divine nature and then taking a human nature means that the human nature is a human nature in real, not in appearance (as the gnostics said and Muhammad quoted by saying He was crucified “in appearance”). The human nature eats and goes to the toilet and Jesus’ second nature did not “change” His divine nature because Jesus has 2 natures , not one nature, the divine nature with what it implies, and the human nature with what it implies.

If one wants to understand, he can.

 

[famdigy]

He took on the ‘indignities’ of the human form out of pure love for us. Everything you say only makes Jesus seem the more great to me.

Do all Muslims have such a negative view of their bodies as is being presented here?

Are you suggesting that if he hadn’t taken on the human indignities then he does not love us, or that his love is not complete? In other words, he is only capable of showing complete love by humiliating and lowering himself to the level of creation. If you were a dog owner would you get on all fours, bark, howl, groan and salivate with tonge out to show how much you love love your dog? wouldn’t it be shameful for a human to behave like a dog as the human is above the animal.

 

[Iamnotafraid]

This is like watching two 6 year olds argue over that old classic;

" My Dad’s better than your Dad."

 

[Sister_Amy]

This is the definition from Wikipedia, of the flying horse that I was talking about.

It seems that your prophet flew to the heavens while riding upon what is called a Buraq.

Wikipedia describes a Buraq as;

“The Buraq is an angelic winged horse, often represented as a milk-white winged four-legged creature with the head of a woman.[1] In some folk paintings and tattoos it is represented as a mare, a female horse”

You said;

So, it is obvious that a man riding upon the back of an angelic winged horse doesn’t make any sense.

The Prophet flying off to paradise on the back of a Buraq, according to what you said, is clearly something that would be considered an optional belief for a Muslim.

No?

Wikipedia your source on Islam? Ah, well. It’s so ubiquitous, so easily accessible… what’s a girl to do?

Anyway, I do believe in Buraq, but Muhammad (saws) did not “fly to Paradise” on Buraq. He flew, or traveled one way or another, to Jerusalem. Jerusalem is quite a different place than Paradise. The distinction needs to be made. He did not ride Buraq to Paradise.

 

[Sister_Amy]

**Yes, Not Afraid, We Muslims believe that. It was a vision, meaning a " True dream". It was not a material, physical journey. It was a spiritual jouney which transported our prophet to endless spiritual heights, to the realm of the unseen. So, will you please think on that line, kindly.

Our prophet led all the previous prophets in a prayer too. And later he visited all the previous prophets in various levels of (skies) Heavens, even saw John the Baptist and Jesus together on fourth sky.
**.

Speak for yourself. My teachers insist that it was a physical journey, although Buraq was ridden to Jerusalem, and not to Paradise.

 

[Muslim_Woman]

In the name of Allah , Most Gracious, Most Merciful

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… My teachers insist that it was a physical journey,

yes . Several new Muslims left Islam because they could not believe it . Many non-Muslims who travelled to Jerusalem came to the Prophet (pbuh) to challenge him , asked him to describe how many doors , windows are there in the holy place ? Normally people don’t count such thing & don’t remember . Allah helped Prophet (pbuh) & he could see the view of Jerusalem & answered each questions correctly.

If it was only a dream , no question of anyone’s leaving Islam or non-Muslims challenging the Propohet (pbuh). Because we can see anything in our dreams .

related verses :

Al-Isra / The night journey

Glorified (and Exalted) be He (Allah) [above all that (evil) they associate with Him]
Who took His slave (Muhammad صلى الله عليه و سلم) for a journey by night from Al-Masjid-al-Haram (at Makkah) to Al-Masjid-al-Aqsa (in Jerusalem),

the neighbourhood whereof We have blessed, in order that We might show him (Muhammad صلى الله عليه و سلم) of Our Ayat (proofs, evidence, lessons, signs, etc.).

Verily, He is the All-Hearer, the All-Seer

chapter 17 , verse 1
translation of Mohsin Khan:

 

[planten]

In the name of Allah , Most Gracious, Most Merciful

http://theislampath.com/smf/Smileys/default/salam.gif

yes . Several new Muslims left Islam because they could not believe it . Many non-Muslims who travelled to Jerusalem came to the Prophet (pbuh) to challenge him , asked him to describe how many doors , windows are there in the holy place ? Normally people don’t count such thing & don’t remember . Allah helped Prophet (pbuh) & he could see the view of Jerusalem & answered each questions correctly.

If it was only a dream , no question of anyone’s leaving Islam or non-Muslims challenging the Propohet (pbuh). Because we can see anything in our dreams .

related verses :

Al-Isra / The night journey

Glorified (and Exalted) be He (Allah) [above all that (evil) they associate with Him]
Who took His slave (Muhammad صلى الله عليه و سلم) for a journey by night from Al-Masjid-al-Haram (at Makkah) to Al-Masjid-al-Aqsa (in Jerusalem),

the neighbourhood whereof We have blessed, in order that We might show him (Muhammad صلى الله عليه و سلم) of Our Ayat (proofs, evidence, lessons, signs, etc.).

Verily, He is the All-Hearer, the All-Seer

chapter 17 , verse 1
translation of Mohsin Khan:

**MW and sis Amy, It is true that the prophets journey was spiritual, not physical. The chapter 17 is a Makki chapter, was revealed in Makkah.

There are two stages of that journey. The one in which the prophet was taken to Palestine is called Isra’a. The other in which he was taken to the highest levels in Heavens is called Mi’araaj.

About The journey to Palestine, some one asked the prophjet about the building. It is written in Bukhari (?) that Allah made the building to appear before the prophet and he could tell each thing by looking at it.

In another Hadith, it is written that the body of the prophet did not leave the bed.
In another Hadith is written after describing the event, the prophet said," Then I woke up". = Fas taiqadha.

There is divided opinion on this subject amongst Muslims about the journey being physical or spiritual. I believe it to be spiritual journey to unknown heights.

May be I can present more reliable material after some check up.**

 

[LilyM]

Are you suggesting that if he hadn’t taken on the human indignities then he does not love us, or that his love is not complete? In other words, he is only capable of showing complete love by humiliating and lowering himself to the level of creation. If you were a dog owner would you get on all fours, bark, howl, groan and salivate with tonge out to show how much you love love your dog? wouldn’t it be shameful for a human to behave like a dog as the human is above the animal.

Doesn’t pretty much every mother and father get on all fours to play with their child if the child is playing on the floor? Give the child ‘horsey-rides’ and stuff? Doesn’t pretty much every mother and father talk babytalk (meaningless noise) to a baby? Play childish games like peek-a-boo? Read childish storybooks - far beneath adult intelligence - to the child?

Yet a parent is above the child as well, are they not? That a parent, for a limited time, does undignified things when playing with its child doesn’t negate the parent’s status as a parent. We are God’s children, not just any creature and not comparable to animals either.

For what it’s worth, yes, some people DO ‘talk dog’ to their dogs (I’ve done it a few times), and do certain things like let a dog or cat sleep in the same bed and so on. And what’s that about salivating? All humans salivate all the time, we just don’t visibly drool like SOME (not all) dogs do.

 

[deb1]

This is like watching two 6 year olds argue over that old classic;

" My Dad’s better than your Dad."

We are each explaining our beliefs. I do not feel that I am arguing with anyone, simply clarifying the Christian side.

Then again to take your analogy to its conclusion, Two children(I suppose Christians and Muslims) are arguing about whose dad is the best and you are the little boy shouting there is no such thing as a dad. How sad for that little child who doesn’t have a father to love him. I think that I would rather be one of the kids who is comforted knowing, at least, that I have a loving dad.

 

[Booklover]

Speak for yourself. My teachers insist that it was a physical journey, although Buraq was ridden to Jerusalem, and not to Paradise.

Did anyone see him in Jerusalem riding this horse with the face of a woman? Where are the eye witnesses to this phenomenon?

Vickie

 

[a_slave_of_God]

Jesus didn’t die,

1. Because of their breaking the covenant, and of their rejecting the Ayât (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) of Allâh, and of their killing the Prophets unjustly, and of their saying: “Our hearts are wrapped (with coverings, i.e. we do not understand what the Messengers say)” - nay, Allâh has set a seal upon their hearts because of their disbelief, so they believe not but a little.
2. And because of their (Jews) disbelief and uttering against Maryam (Mary) a grave false charge (that she has committed illegal sexual intercourse);
3. And because of their saying (in boast), “We killed Messiah 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), the Messenger of Allâh,” - but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but the resemblance of 'Iesa (Jesus) was put over another man (and they killed that man), and those who differ therein are full of doubts. They have no (certain) knowledge, they follow nothing but conjecture. For surely; they killed him not.
4. But Allâh raised him 'Iesa (Jesus)] up (with his body and soul) unto Himself. And Allâh is Ever All Powerful, All Wise.
5. And there is none of the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), but must believe in him, before his death. And on the Day of Resurrection, he 'Iesa (Jesus)] will be a witness against them.

 

[planten]

Here is something from the Quran about Jesus and his prayer to Allah and the acceptance of his prayer and the reply from Allah to the prayer of Jesus. Please see:

**[3:52] And when Jesus perceived their disbelief, he said, ‘Who will be my helpers in the cause of Allah?’ The disciples answered, ‘We are the helpers of Allah. We have believed in Allah. And bear thou witness that we are obedient.

[3:53] ‘Our Lord, we believe in that which Thou hast sent down and we follow this Messenger. So write us down among those who bear witness.’

[3:54] And they planned, and Allah also planned; and Allah is the Best of planners.

[3:55] When Allah said, ‘O Jesus, I will cause thee to die a natural death and will exalt thee to Myself, and will clear thee from the charges of those who disbelieve, and will place those who follow thee above those who disbelieve, until the Day of Resurrection; then to Me shall be your return, and I will judge between you concerning that wherein you differ. **

 

[planten]

** Here is more about Jesus from the Quran, chapter 4: It is referring to the Jews.**

**
[4:156] And because of their disbelief and their uttering against Mary a grievous calumny,

[4:157] And their saying, ‘We did kill the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah;’ whereas they slew him not, nor crucified him, but he was made to appear to them like one crucified; and those who differ therein are certainly in a state of doubt about it; they have no definite knowledge thereof, but only follow a conjecture; and they did not convert this conjecture into a certainty;

[4:158] On the contrary, Allah exalted him to Himself. And Allah is Mighty, Wise.

[4:159] And there is none among the People of the Book but will believe in it before his death; and on the Day of Resurrection, he (Jesus) shall be a witness against them —**

 

[Muslim_Woman]

In the name of Allah , Most Gracious, Most Merciful

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… I believe it to be spiritual journey

why then people challenged him , some even left Islam ?

Some went to Abu Bakr (ra) & asked if he heard & believed ? Ans of Abu Bakr (ra) was If Prophet (pbuh) said so , I believe. After showing this trust to the last Prophet , he was given the title Siddiqe.

If it was only a dream , no question of disbelievers asking him so many questions & Allah need not show the image of the mosque to His Prophet .

If I say , last night , I went to Jerusalem in dream , surely people won’t start laughing as it’s possible to see anything in dreams . As Prophet’s night journey was not only spritual , it created huge debate .