When Jesus/God died..

[Dispector]

SaraJ,

This has to do with the Trinity (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit). Each part is separate yet united. Kinda like your head, your thorax, and your legs are all separate parts yet unite as one body.

For more information on the Trinity go to:

catholic.com/library/trinity.asp

As for Jesus saying “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” (Matthew 27:45) is actually a reference to Psalm 22. Psalm 22 was a well known and repeated Psalm during the life of Jesus. The first line of Psalm 22 is “My God, my God, why have you You forsaken me?” (Psalm 22:1). If you read the rest of it you’ll realize how it ties into His life and crucifixion.

Respectfully,
Mark

 

[YADA]

We need to be familiar with the Hebrew Texts [what Christians call the Old Testimant] and the New Testiment writings…

Jesus came to fullfill the “Old Testament” promises.

Read Psalm 22 to understand what Jesus was saying when he quoted “My God, My God, why have you forsaken me” Jesus was not ‘abandoned’ by God, Jesus is one with God, Jesus is God incarnated into the world to bring salvation to all mankind - past, present, future…Jesus was sending message and it is the hopeful message of salvation found in Psalm 22

 

[jburgherr]

Jesus was likely reciting the 22 Psalm
(Psa 22:1) … My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? Why are you so far from saving me, from the words of my groaning?

See how similar it is toMat 27:46) And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?” that is, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”

This is the part that Jesus was able to speak, as his mortal body was being ravaged by the suffocating torture of crucifixion, he was not able to complete the full Psalm.

Now the devote Jews who witnessed Jesus’ crucifixion, would have undoubtedly known what Jesus was reciting holy scripture. They would not have seen this as a desperate cry to the Father, as the rest of the psalm is that of praise and thanksgiving to the Father.(Psa 22:28) For kingship belongs to the LORD, and he rules over the nations.
(Psa 22:29) All the prosperous of the earth eat and worship; before him shall bow all who go down to the dust, even the one who could not keep himself alive.
(Psa 22:30) Posterity shall serve him; it shall be told of the Lord to the coming generation;
(Psa 22:31) they shall come and proclaim his righteousness to a people yet unborn, that he has done it.

 

[Mommyof02green]

I have found that a better way of stating omnipotence seems to be “all powerful” rather than “can do anything”… here’s why. A lot of people put self-contradiction under “anything” and then fall into the logical abyss of wondering “if God can do anything, why can’t he limit his power?” An example is the question a lot of poorly instructed atheists love to pose: “Can God create a stone so heavy he cannot lift it?”

Good point!

 

[PaulDupre]

The crucial point, which no one seems to have made yet, is that God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are three distinct persons. The Son is not the Father, the Father is not the Son, and neither of them is the Holy Spirit, yet the three of them are 1 God. They are 1 in being, but not 1 in Person. It is God’s nature to exist as a family of three persons. We call that family “the trinity”.

So when God the Son came down from heaven and was born as the human Jesus of Nazareth, God the Father was still in heaven. God the Father did not die on the cross, and neither did God the Holy Spirit. God the Son died on the cross.

God bless,
Paul

 

[Verisimilitude]

When Jesus died it was recorded he said " Father, why have you forsaken me?"
If Jesus was God why would he say that? If he was God he would have known “heaven” was empty and unattended because he was in human form.

I have always thought of that particular moment as the last defining moment of His humanity.

Before God manifested Himself in Jesus, humans could make a claim to God “You don’t know what it is like to be hungry, cold, poor, lust…” so God could not fully understand what it meant to be human and why we humans do as we do with temptations.

Whether or not that is a legitimate defense is no longer relavent, but for all of that human experience that we deal with on a daily basis, Jesus also faced the same temptations and showed by example that it is possible to overcome them and live in accordance with the Law.

There was only one thing missing throughout all of His life and ministry: Jesus knew the Father intimately; He said so often, so those of us that feel abandoned by God at times could have still said to God as a defense; “Jesus had the Transfiguration with Moses and Elija, and saw the Dove and heard Your voice when baptised by John…He had that True knowledge of You which we must take on faith.”

While dying on the cross, I think, for that very brief moment when He cried out: "Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?” that is, “My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?” He felt the perception of abandonment we sometimes feel. He was quoting Scripture. Look at how that Psalm ends.

Truth be told, God never abandons any of us though we abandon Him by our sin. Christ avoided all sin, but still faced every temptation to sin, to include the chance to cursing God for abandonment.

As to your other point, Heaven, which is where God resides is never empty though God be in all places at once. Like the flame of a single candle, it can light other candles without diminishing itself. Jesus Christ was such a flame, as are we though we don’t fully realize our potential or trust enough to burn as bright as we ought to.

 

[Yerusalyim]

SaraJ,

You can never understand God, he’s too complicated.

As to the “Why have you forsaken me”…Jesus was praying, specifically he was PRAYING (not merely reciting) the 22nd Psalm. It is a Psalm (prayer) of GREAT HOPE and TRUST in God the Father.

So yes, Jesus is God the Son, and he prayed to God the Father, who is ALWAYS in heaven.

 

[Mommyof02green]

Still confused
Here is a question…

Should a person except something they dont understand or excepting something that is easier to understand?

Just because it’s “easier” to understand doesn’t make it “right”. Accepting things that you do not fully understand is by definition FAITH.

Faith- Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence.
Source: dictionary.com

It takes FAITH to accept and believe in something such as God’s Omnipotence; His’ Omniscience, and His’ Omnipresence. It takes FAITH to accept and believe in the concept of the Trinity.

Now you are me.
I thought Jesus was God so Jesus was the Father?

The Trinity:
CCC paragraphs 253-256:

253 The Trinity is One. We do not confess three Gods, but one God in three persons, the “consubstantial Trinity.” The divine persons do not share the one divinity among themselves but each of them is God whole and entire: “The Father is that which the Son is, the Son that which the Father is, the Father and the Son that which the Holy Spirit is, i.e., by nature one God.” In the words of the Fourth Lateran Council (1215): “Each of the persons is that supreme reality, viz., the divine substance, essence or nature.”

254 The divine persons are really distinct from one another. “God is one but not solitary.” “Father,” “Son,” “Holy Spirit” are not simply names designating modalities of the divine being, for they are really distinct from one another: “He is not the Father who is the Son, nor is the Son he who is the Father, nor is the Holy Spirit he who is the Father or the Son.” They are distinct from one another in their relations of origin: “It is the Father who generates, the Son who is begotten, and the Holy Spirit who proceeds.” The divine Unity is Triune.

255 The divine persons are relative to one another. Because it does not divide the divine unity, the real distinction of the persons from one another resides solely in the relationships which relate them to one another: “In the relational names of the persons the Father is related to the Son, the Son to the Father, and the Holy Spirit to both. While they are called three persons in view of their relations, we believe in one nature or substance.” Indeed “everything (in them) is one where there is no opposition of relationship.” “Because of that unity the Father is wholly in the Son and wholly in the Holy Spirit; the Son is wholly in the Father and wholly in the Holy Spirit; the Holy Spirit is wholly in the Father and wholly in the Son.”

256 St. Gregory of Nazianzus, also called “the Theologian,” entrusts this summary of Trinitarian faith to the catechumens of Constantinople:
Above all guard for me this great deposit of faith for which I live and fight, which I want to take with me as a companion, and which makes me bear all evils and despise all pleasures: I mean the profession of faith in the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. I entrust it to you today. By it I am soon going to plunge you into water and raise you up from it. I give it to you as the companion and patron of your whole life. I give you but one divinity and power, existing one in three, and containing the three in a distinct way. Divinity without disparity of substance or nature, without superior degree that raises up or inferior degree that casts down . . . the infinite co-naturality of three infinites. Each person considered in himself is entirely God . . . the three considered together. . . . I have not even begun to think of unity when the Trinity bathes me in its splendor. I have not even begun to think of the Trinity when unity grasps me. . . .

 

[YADA]

I kind of agree with you Paul but not quite…

The three persons is understood in the Greek context of ‘personas’ not distinct ‘persons’. Distinct persons would be individual beings and only Jesus was incarnate, human flesh.

I am one person: and yet I am a daughter, wife, mother, friend etc. Relational, not individual…

The Trinity is the perfection of family, as humans we are probably 'like" family…

That being said we can only ‘dance’ around the concept of te Trinity - One God - Three Persons - Father Son and Holy Spirit - it is after all a Divine Mystery. Try as we do to explain it, use our language and logic to describe it, it always remains somewhat out of reach…what makes logical sense to one person does not for another…

But then it is referred to as faith. Faith being that something known but yet unknowable, it is seen and yet unseen, etc.

 

[PaulDupre]

The Trinity is the perfection of family, as humans we are probably 'like" family…

Agreed!

God bless you,
Paul

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Still confused
Here is a question…

Should a person except something they dont understand or except something that is easier to understand?

Example; if I dont pic a organized religion because they all seem too complicated and just stay as I am as believing in God but not mans religion or pick something that makes no sense and will never to me and will keep me struggling all my life?

Hi SaraJ, were you there when God created the world? Did God ask your advice on how to create a cow? You do realise, that comparing our understanding to that of God is like comparing the understanding by dirt with our understanding. So, if God wanted to do something we don’t fully understand, does that make what he did undone? or did God do what he did, even if we don’t understand it? Why do you think God must fit into our boxes?



For example, I have an IQ of 170, and yet I don’t fully understand the Trinity, and even thought the word “trinity” is not in scripture, the concept of a triune God is there. Should I reject this doctrine that is fundamental to Christianity, simply because I don’t fully understand it? Should I have such pride in my lack of understanding? or should I bow to Jesus?

The Biblical Basis of the Doctrine of the Trinity: An Outline Study
By Robert M. Bowman, Jr. apologetics.com
spotlightministries.org.uk/bowmanonthetrinity.htm

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Now you are me.
I thought Jesus was God so Jesus was the Father?

No orthodox christianity does not teach that Jesus is the Father. Our understanding of the trinity is that there are three persons ( not three people ) in the Godhead, and there is only one God. Among these three persons there is a voluntary ranking among them of Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Scripture plainy teaches that God the Father sent both the Son and Holy Spirit. It also teaches that the Son sent the Spirit too, that is why the Holy Spirit is also called the Spirit of Christ in Romans.

 

[jburgherr]

SaraJ,

You can never understand God, he’s too complicated.

As to the “Why have you forsaken me”…Jesus was praying, specifically he was PRAYING (not merely reciting) the 22nd Psalm. It is a Psalm (prayer) of GREAT HOPE and TRUST in God the Father.

So yes, Jesus is God the Son, and he prayed to God the Father, who is ALWAYS in heaven.

Quite right. Me using the word “reciting” was a bad choice.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

I have found that a better way of stating omnipotence seems to be “all powerful” rather than “can do anything”… here’s why. A lot of people put self-contradiction under “anything” and then fall into the logical abyss of wondering “if God can do anything, why can’t he limit his power?” An example is the question a lot of poorly instructed atheists love to pose: “Can God create a stone so heavy he cannot lift it?”

God did create a rock that was too heavy for him to lift. Jesus as God the Son created rocks before his incarnation, and while on earth even though Jesus was fully God and fully Man there were rocks that Jesus could not lift.

Thus God did create rocks too heavy for God to lift.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

24 For he has not despised or disdained
the suffering of the afflicted one;
he has not hidden his face from him
but has listened to his cry for help.

This verse proves that God the Father did not forsake Jesus.

Psalm 22:24 Parallel Translations

NASB: For He has not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; Nor has He hidden His face from him; But when he cried to Him for help, He heard. (NASB ©1995)

GWT: The LORD has not despised or been disgusted with the plight of the oppressed one. He has not hidden his face from that person. The LORD heard when that oppressed person cried out to him for help.(GOD’S WORD®)

KJV: For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; neither hath he hid his face from him; but when he cried unto him, he heard.

ASV: For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; Neither hath he hid his face from him; But when he cried unto him, he heard.

BBE: For he has not been unmoved by the pain of him who is troubled; or kept his face covered from him; but he has given an answer to his cry.

DBY: For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; neither hath he hid his face from him: but when he cried unto him, he heard.

ERV: For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; neither hath he hid his face from him; but when he cried unto him, he heard.

JPS: For He hath not despised nor abhorred the lowliness of the poor; neither hath He hid His face from him; but when he cried unto Him, He heard.'

WBS: For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; neither hath he hid his face from him; but when he cried to him, he heard.

WEB: For he has not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted, Neither has he hidden his face from him; but when he cried to him, he heard.

YLT: For He hath not despised, nor abominated, The affliction of the afflicted, Nor hath He hidden His face from him, And in his crying unto Him He heareth.

BTW, according to James 2:26 death is simply defined as seperation of body and spirit. Jesus as God, his spirit would lived on even if soul sleep were true. But, we know that soul sleep is not true because Jesus preached to the dead.

1 Peter 4:6
For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to men in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.

1 Peter 3:18-20 (King James Version)

18For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, **being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

19By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
**
20Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

 

[FCEGM]

SaraJ,

You can never understand God, he’s too complicated. . .QUOTE]

No, God is Simple, not complicated; but Divine Simplicity is deep and beyond man’s understanding in His entirety (even in the Beatific Vision we will not see Him fully.) But the simpler we become in our spiritual lives the more we “see” Him; as Jesus said, “unless you become like a little child. . .” :bounce:

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

ok that bouncing icon is giving me motion sickness.

 

[BelFarfalla]

How do you know what he can do?

You claim that God was not in heaven. That He could not be everywhere at once. How do you know what He can and cannot do?

It seems to me that you are putting limitations on Gof based on your limited imagination or limited intellegence.

 

[paarsurrey]

When Jesus died it was recorded he said " Father, why have you forsaken me?"
If Jesus was God why would he say that? If he was God he would have known “heaven” was empty and unattended because he was in human form.

Hi
Sorry to interrept you.
Jesus is said to have spoken these words " Father, why have you forsaken me?" on the Cross; but in fact, in my opinion, Jesus did not die on Cross, God helped him save his life and did not forsook him. Jesus later died in India according to one tradition at the very ripe age of 120 years.
Thanks

 

[Ilroy]

Hi
Sorry to interrept you.
Jesus is said to have spoken these words " Father, why have you forsaken me?" on the Cross; but in fact, in my opinion, Jesus did not die on Cross, God helped him save his life and did not forsook him. Jesus later died in India according to one tradition at the very ripe age of 120 years.
Thanks

So, how can it be IN FACT yet at the same time be IN YOUR OPINION? these two statements together make absolutely no sense…nor does the errant view that Christ did not die on the cross and rise again.