When Mormons Knock on your door (or other religious folks)

[Jehoshua]

It is true that every religion has a facet or reflection of the truth within it to a lesser or greater degree.

But the bible statement you mentioned i believe is:

“whoever is not with us, is against us”

We try to enlighten others to the fullness of the truth that resides wholly within the Holy Catholic Church. That does not neccessitate in all cases hostility, and in areas of common interests we can work together. But fundamentally we as catholics, can and will not fall into a relativistic position that accepts all religions as equal which a position (as i understood it) as advocated in your post.

and considering mormonism is an agressively evangelistic, semi-christian (no offense but theologicallly mormonism deviates dramatically from orthodox christianity) religion is in direct competition with the Catholic Church in many areas, is clearly in these areas fundamentally opposed to the Holy Catholic Church. Which neccessitates on our part an effort to enlighten them (amongst others) to the truth. (In an non antagonistic way of course, there should be no compulsion in religion

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As to attendance, its not quantity but quality that matters.

As to quantity in the Catholic Church my opinion is that abuses of the liturgy and modernistic deviations of the liturgy are the root cause of the lowered attendance. Obviously im very traditionalist (id prefer the extraordinary form although i do not deny the validity of V.II) but the abuses coming with the alterations in V.II supposedly in the “spirit” of the council are definitely in my opinion the root cause of the problem.

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Notably ive had no mormons in years, must be on the black list:shrug:

 

[Love_Divine]

It is true that every religion has a facet or reflection of the truth within it to a lesser or greater degree.

But the bible statement you mentioned i believe is:

“whoever is not with us, is against us”

No, it’s:
“For he who is not against us is for us”
~Mark 9:40.

 

[dianaiad]

No, it’s:
“For he who is not against us is for us”
~Mark 9:40.

Actually, it’s both…Matthew 12:30 and Luke 11:23.

It’s all about the context.

 

[dianaiad]

—

As to attendance, its not quantity but quality that matters.—

Notably Ive had no mormons in years, must be on the black list:shrug:

I don’t know about you, but I’d call three solid hours of gospel instruction along with taking the Sacrament (communion) pretty solid quality. Up to you, of course, but a cavalier dismissal of the way WE handle our church attendance as 'quantity over quality" is a fairly ignorant statement. “Ignorant,” in the sense of “making comments without knowledge,”

I would never, for instance, categorize a Catholic who begins every morning by attending Mass as going for 'quantity over quality," even if by doing so the Mass is probably memorized to the point that he could sleep through it and still recite it. The quality is in the eye of the person attending, not the observer.

As to the last…we don’t actually have a ‘black list.’ I am so sorry to disappoint you on that one.

 

[Nicea325]

I keep seeing that book on the right hand side of the screen “When Mormons Call” (or something like that.

I usually get a visit once a summer. And it’s usually stinking hot, so I often invite them in the AC for a bit to drink some cold water, use the bathroom, etc. You know, just be nice. They usually try to talk to me about the Book of Mormon and Latter Day Saints, but I just tell them I am Catholic and am not interested. I sometimes add, “I have a few Mormon friends and they haven’t been able to convert me. I am strong in my faith. So I think your chances are slim.” They always offer to help me out around the house too–but I decline.

They usually accept that I am not interested and leave me alone (and thank me for the water). In turn, I don’t try to preach to them either.

So I am curious, what do you do when they (or maybe another religion) knocks on your door? Do you try to talk about Scripture with them? Defend your faith (I’ve never had to do this)? Just be nice and send them on their way?

I simply tell them I am already a follower of Jesus and follow His Church and tell them I am not interested.

 

[Love_Divine]

This is true. Mormons are taught that members of other faiths do not have real faith - they only go through empty rituals with no real passion for God.

From the LDS’s Articles of Faith:

We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.

I don’t know where you guys come up with this stuff. All I find now on the internet is how Catholics and the LDS are working together.

After John Paul II: “LDS and Catholics look ahead”
by Peggy Fletcher Stack (The Salt Lake Tribune, April 9, 2005)

cesnur.org/2005/pope_lds.htm

 

[PaulDupre]

From the LDS’s Articles of Faith:

The Articles of Faith were created by Joseph Smith for consumption by non-members as a PR move. It was during this same period that Joseph also publically denied practicing polygamy, and in fact condemned it, while he was in fact cavorting with his many wives, some of whom were already married to other men.

I don’t know where you guys come up with this stuff. All I find now on the internet is how Catholics and the LDS are working together.

I “come up with this stuff” through personal experience as a former LDS. I know very well how LDS talk amongst themselves (when you and other non-members are not there). If you have never been LDS, you just don’t understand.

 

[zerinus]

From the LDS’s Articles of Faith:

I don’t know where you guys come up with this stuff. All I find now on the internet is how Catholics and the LDS are working together.

Thank you Love Divine for your fair minded approach to Mormonism and to other faiths. You should bear in mind that these folks who seem to have nothing better to do than to constantly bash Mormonism are not genuine Catholics. They are Mormon apostates who have chosen Catholicism as a suitable platform from which to bash Mormonism. They have no more genuine faith in Catholicism than they do in Mormonism; and they give Catholicism a bad name. Somebody visiting this board will think all Catholics are anti-Mormons like them, which of course is not the case. They are like Catholic apostates who like to bash Catholicism. If you go to Evangelical forums like CARM you will find that Catholic apostates are the worst of all Catholic bashers. These folks are just the Mormon equivalent of that. But they are wrong if they think this is going to get them anywhere. One day their “folly shall be made manifest” in the eyes of the people (D&C 136:19), and they will be “despised by those that flattered them” (D&C 121:20).

 

[dianaiad]

The Articles of Faith were created by Joseph Smith for consumption by non-members as a PR move. It was during this same period that Joseph also publically denied practicing polygamy, and in fact condemned it, while he was in fact cavorting with his many wives, some of whom were already married to other men.

Paul, this is one of the things I meant when I call you on saying things that are false to fact. The Articles of Faith are canonized into scripture. That’s a little more than a “PR” move. The doctrine and polcy of polygamy too, is canonized.

As to how we feel about other faiths. You ARE aware of BY’s allocation of land in SLC when the city planning got started, right…and the reason that the Anglicans and the CAtholics (and the Baptists, come to think of it) have such GOOD building sites in the city?

You know, because BY sited the Temple first…and and allocated sites for other faiths before he set aside land for our own church buildings?

Being this bitter, and being so unable to admit that there is anything good or positive about Mormonism AT all simply undermines your criticism; for nobody is all bad. If you can’t admit that, then people have to wonder just how far you DO go to attempt to discredit us.

I “come up with this stuff” through personal experience as a former LDS. I know very well how LDS talk amongst themselves (when you and other non-members are not there). If you have never been LDS, you just don’t understand.

I’m still LDS, and you are wrong.

 

[Murdock]

SnakeMauler

Your post #26 was great. LOL! Oh my heck, I almost busted a gut.

I am going to print it out and take it to meeting next Sunday to show to the Elders working in my ward. Show them how good they have it here.

Murdock

 

[Returning_Home]

(Edited)

How is presenting the facts (Edited) ‘anti-Mormon,’ especially when none of the Mormons here can mount an adequate defense against the major problems with your scriptural works, historical changes, or contradictions between the two?

No one here is bashing Mormonism; we’re pointing out that the accumulation of evidence amounts to a false religion created by men. None of us have said that Mormons, as people, are inherently bad, and some of us have said exactly the opposite. None of us have advocated you being stripped of your civil liberties, your property, your livelihoods, and being out into camps and gassed, have we? Of course not so stop playing the victim card and point out why the rationale leads us to believe that the church is false and thus not of God.

I’m one of the few here who hasn’t been LDS but I have access to all the same material that those who were do and it leads me to the same conclusions so this isn’t so much a matter of Catholic versus Mormon as it is LDS versus non-LDS. We don’t have anything to gain by tearing Mormonism down, but you have something to gain (or rather maintain) in keeping it.

 

[zerinus]

How is presenting the facts without benefit of the LDS-issued rose-colored glasses ‘anti-Mormon,’ especially when none of the Mormons here can mount an adequate defense against the major problems with your scriptural works, historical changes, or contradictions between the two?

No one here is bashing Mormonism; we’re pointing out that the accumulation of evidence amounts to a false religion created by men. None of us have said that Mormons, as people, are inherently bad, and some of us have said exactly the opposite. None of us have advocated you being stripped of your civil liberties, your property, your livelihoods, and being out into camps and gassed, have we? Of course not so stop playing the victim card and point out why the rationale leads us to believe that the church is false and thus not of God.

I’m one of the few here who hasn’t been LDS but I have access to all the same material that those who were do and it leads me to the same conclusions so this isn’t so much a matter of Catholic versus Mormon as it is LDS versus non-LDS. We don’t have anything to gain by tearing Mormonism down, but you have something to gain (or rather maintain) in keeping it.

If you go to CARM, you will find that Catholic apostates say the same thing about the Catholic Church.

 

[crazzeto]

I keep seeing that book on the right hand side of the screen “When Mormons Call” (or something like that.

I usually get a visit once a summer. And it’s usually stinking hot, so I often invite them in the AC for a bit to drink some cold water, use the bathroom, etc. You know, just be nice. They usually try to talk to me about the Book of Mormon and Latter Day Saints, but I just tell them I am Catholic and am not interested. I sometimes add, “I have a few Mormon friends and they haven’t been able to convert me. I am strong in my faith. So I think your chances are slim.” They always offer to help me out around the house too–but I decline.

They usually accept that I am not interested and leave me alone (and thank me for the water). In turn, I don’t try to preach to them either.

So I am curious, what do you do when they (or maybe another religion) knocks on your door? Do you try to talk about Scripture with them? Defend your faith (I’ve never had to do this)? Just be nice and send them on their way?

If you really do feel strong not only in your faith, but also in your knowlege of it… Then try and convert them back.

 

[Tmaque]

As to how we feel about other faiths. You ARE aware of BY’s allocation of land in SLC when the city planning got started, right…and the reason that the Anglicans and the CAtholics (and the Baptists, come to think of it) have such GOOD building sites in the city?

You know, because BY sited the Temple first…and and allocated sites for other faiths before he set aside land for our own church buildings?

This is simply not factual. All of the other faiths came later and ALL had to purchase their property from landowners or the city itself. The Cathedral property in Salt Lake was purchased in 1890 for $35,000. That’s about $7,000,000 in today’s money for less than 2 acres of ground! Treated fairly they were not!

 

[dianaiad]

This is simply not factual. All of the other faiths came later and ALL had to purchase their property from landowners or the city itself. The Cathedral property in Salt Lake was purchased in 1890 for $35,000. That’s about $7,000,000 in today’s money for less than 2 acres of ground! Treated fairly they were not!

Yes? Have you priced land in downtown SLC lately? For your information, it isn’t sold by the acre. It is sold (when you can find it for sale at all) by the square foot. At the moment, the few properties for actual SALE around that area are going for $200 PER SQUARE FOOT. This is for a little free standing office building that is being sold mostly for land value. It is on .18 acre. So…doing the math…there are 27878400 square feet in a mile, times $200, = $5,575,680,000 bucks it would take to purchase two acres right around that area today. That’s five BILLION, five hundred seventy five MILLION, six hundred and eighty thousand bucks. Subtract the 7,000,000 you claim, and by George, the Catholics got a Five billion, five hundred sixty eight million, 680 thousand dollar discount.

I don’t know about you, but that sounds a little more than ‘fair’ to me.

And yes, Y’all had to buy the land, but the point is, my friend, nobody ELSE could buy the land; it was allocated for the use of faiths other than LDS.

 

[scottm]

I wonder what the missionaries would say if you asked them - In the next life will you have one wife or more?

When they say the LDS church does not practice polygamy anymore, I wonder what they would say if you asked them to promise you right there that they don’t believe in polygamy and will refuse to practice it in the next life.

Will they do that? Will they look you right in your eyes and promise to refuse to practice polygamy in the next life or will they dance around the question?

You say that as if polygamy is inherently wrong. It’s not inherently wrong. The OT saints were polygamous and God never chastized them for it. Actually I can’t recall anyone in the OT being criticized by anyone else for the fact of having multiple wives. And I cannot think of any moral system under which the mere act of having multiple wives is wrong.

 

[Jehoshua]

I don’t know about you, but I’d call three solid hours of gospel instruction along with taking the Sacrament (communion) pretty solid quality. Up to you, of course, but a cavalier dismissal of the way WE handle our church attendance as 'quantity over quality" is a fairly ignorant statement. “Ignorant,” in the sense of “making comments without knowledge,”

I would never, for instance, categorize a Catholic who begins every morning by attending Mass as going for 'quantity over quality," even if by doing so the Mass is probably memorized to the point that he could sleep through it and still recite it. The quality is in the eye of the person attending, not the observer.

As to the last…we don’t actually have a ‘black list.’ I am so sorry to disappoint you on that one.

I think youtook my statement as something other then intended considering I was talking about attendance at Catholic churches.

My intended meaning since its clear you misunderstood is, that its the quality of the people who go to the mass that is the faithfulness and sincerity of those attendees rather then the quantity of attendants that matters. In other words better to have only 10 truly pious faithful attendees at a mass then 1000 people who are not faithful, not sincere about their faith and feel forced or obliged for whatever reason to be there.

Although of course it would be better for those ten to enlighten the 1000 to the reality of the Catholic faith

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As to the black list comment I believe the JW’s have such a list. I incorrectly assumed the LDS would have something similar for their missionary program. I apologise if you took offense to that incorrect assumption.

 

[Jehoshua]

Actually, it’s both…Matthew 12:30 and Luke 11:23.

It’s all about the context.

Thankyou That one slipped me by.

you are indeed correct. context is everything. Although I stand by my argument against a relativistic position.

 

[zaffiroborant]

You say that as if polygamy is inherently wrong. It’s not inherently wrong. The OT saints were polygamous and God never chastized them for it. Actually I can’t recall anyone in the OT being criticized by anyone else for the fact of having multiple wives. And I cannot think of any moral system under which the mere act of having multiple wives is wrong.

You list Byzantine Catholic, if by that you mean those churches that are in full communion with Rome you might want to look further into this.

 

[dianaiad]

I think youtook my statement as something other then intended considering I was talking about attendance at Catholic churches.

My intended meaning since its clear you misunderstood is, that its the quality of the people who go to the mass that is the faithfulness and sincerity of those attendees rather then the quantity of attendants that matters. In other words better to have only 10 truly pious faithful attendees at a mass then 1000 people who are not faithful, not sincere about their faith and feel forced or obliged for whatever reason to be there.

Although of course it would be better for those ten to enlighten the 1000 to the reality of the Catholic faith

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As to the black list comment I believe the JW’s have such a list. I incorrectly assumed the LDS would have something similar for their missionary program. I apologise if you took offense to that incorrect assumption.

As to the 'black list"…no, I didn’t take offense. I was simply correcting an assumption.

As to the other…well, that’s ONE way to explain why fewer Catholics attend church than do Mormons, but I don’t quite get how you can assume that because more Mormons go to church…as a percentage…than do Catholics pretty much anywhere that this automatically means that Mormons are not serious about what they do there. Again, I would call a three hour block of church instruction every Sunday, plus various activities during the week, pretty serious.



As it happens, Catholic church attendence tends to be fairly low, percentage wise. In Italy, for instance, it’s about 30%. Whereas in Utah church attendance (according to a recent Gallup poll) is 79%. I would never presume to tell you that the lower Catholic attendance means that those who DO attend are less serious.

I think it is probably not a good idea to assume that all those people, who attend that three hour block on Sundays plus, aren’t actually serious about it. It might be nice to comfort your self with this idea, but there is no evidence at all to support such a statement. As well, given the standard criticism of the CoJCoLDS that we are ‘too busy,’ or too involved, or ‘cultish’ and mind numbed robots, the idea that our church attendance is pro forma is a little odd.