When Muslims break laws in the "House of War"

[Gottle_of_Geer]

I hope the name of the thread does not sound unfair to Muslims. I have a question, arising from an interview with Anjam Chaudhuri, the founder of Al-Muhajiroun, who was answering questions on behalf of Omar Bakri Mohammed, who had by then left the UK for Lebanon.​

My question is this: Anjam Chaudhuri stated that Muslims do not and cannot tell non-Muslims of infractions of the law, by other Muslims, in non-Muslim countries. Especially when the non-Muslim country is making war on a Muslim country.

• After all, the Muslims in the country attacked are also brothers of
• the Muslim breaking the law in the attacking, non-Muslim, country;
• and of the Muslims who refuse to report the law-breaking Muslims to the authorities of the non-Muslim country.

Chaudhuri did not say that the war in Iraq was the reason why Muslims did not report other Muslims; the reason he gave was, in effect, that Muslims can’t “break ranks” and tell non-Muslims of the activities of Muslims. The war, was a supporting reason for not doing so - and no more than a supporting reason.

This, as it stands, is perfectly intelligible - Muslims should not act against their Muslim brothers to the advantage of non-Muslims.

The problems this raises are also perfectly intelligible:

1. What is the position of those Muslims who regard such a withholding of information as itself a criminal act - or at least, as an ungrateful one (seeing that Muslims are often present in non-Muslim countries because they have fled from oppression elsewhere) ?
2. How are the non-Muslim authorities and people in the non-Muslim country meant to react when they hear Chaudhury speak like this ?

The, or a, problem, is this: if a religion (not just Islam, but certainly including it) requires its followers to have attitudes which prevent them reporting criminal activities engaged in by their fellow-believers: does this not expose the whole of that religion to the reproach of being anti-social at best, and dangerous to a country’s stability at worst ? If it is not against Islam for Muslims to conceal illegal activities by other Muslims - how can we non-Muslims, knowing this, take seriously the words of Muslims who say that Islam is a religion of peace, or other such comforting things ? Why should we believe such words ? Why should we not look upon Muslims as - to be blunt - enemies, who are all the more dangerous to us for being enemies, not openly, but in a concealed manner ?

1. It may be that the West in general, or the UK in particular, is degenerate or corrupt: but would it not be corrupt, or rather, grossly negligent, of Western authorities - however secular or opposed to Islam they might be, or be thought to be - to take no action against Muslims whose acts threaten the security of those countries ? Are they supposed to sit back and do nothing to stop Muslims blowing up non-Muslims - or other Muslims, for that matter ?

This all raises another question: and I want an honest & truthful & straightfoward answer, such as is fitting from homest and truthful men who claim to fear God:

Do we non-Muslims have any right at all to be dealt with honestly - or does Islam, or any part of it, require, allow, practice or encourage the notion that: non-Muslims can be deceived, or should or must be deceived, in the interests of Islam or of Allah ? And *if *the answer is, that we can or should or may be deceived - why ? ##

 

[meedo]

I am a muslim from Egypt

First : Let me just explain . This house of war thing was anm opinion of one muslim scholar long ago and it isnt a wide propagated term . however, if you insist on using it ,Any where that muslims can live and practice and talkk about their religion freely is considered a home land.

Second : There isa difference between bieng patriotic and bieng truthful.

Lets talk about the Iraq war. Was it legal? No . Does the iraquis have techniocally the right to defend themselves against briotain and attack it ? yes . Simply through following International laws.

Third: Would any Iraqui be allowed to attack britain if it didnt attack iraq ? No

Muslims arent indebted to the west . When Britain went to teh war it was widley knwon that its a war .

War means two people fighting , so when you hit with a bomb expectto be hit back .

I am an Egyptian . If my country invades sudan i support sudan to attack Egypt. This is simple justice .I wouldnt be an attacker but it isnt really my business that some fools in my country dfecided to attack an innocent nation . it isnt my responsibility either to turn into a spy on the sudaneese in EGYPT.

This is somthing that people in the east hates about the west , Your lives are more precious than ours . You can invade and bomb and be heros even if thousands and thousands of civilians die . Doesnt matter does it . But if one westerner civilian die , every body else are murderous terrorists .

The people that fell down in the london bombs arte innocent civilians . \The attack was wrong . I feel for them and their famiolies. They didnt have any say into this and this war , they even demonstarated against it .
complete my post later
Peace

 

[Joe_Monahan]

**This has the potential to become a hot discussion, so I want to establish some ground-rules up-front.

A cautionary note. From the way that I understand Meedo’s post, he set out to explain the “House of War” thought process/justification, regarding which Gottle queried, as opposed to expressing his personal opinion.

In fact, if I understand him correctly, he does not adhere to the concepts described as House of War and disagrees with the precepts therein. So, I would ask that any non-Muslim intending to reply to his post do so with that perspective in mind (ideally, I’d like to see Meedo finish his post prior to responses being directed at it). If, when he does return to post, it is clarified that these are also his subscribed beliefs, that changes the picture.

In short, if he is merely trying to answer the question, as opposed to defending this line of thought, I expect that replies to him will be in the nature of dialogue and inquiry, reflecting the role that he has taken on, and will be neither confrontational nor argumentative.**

Thank you.

Joe

 

[Writer]

The earlier post reminds me of a question I have been wanting to ask for some time, but I have never had an opportunity. I would be interested in a Muslim’s perspective.

Here in the United States, our space shuttle’s return highlights the place of technology in our culture. We have wonderful medicines and treatments for illnesses, and we take steps to protect our most vulnerable through various aid progrms. Everywhere you turn in the US, there is technology and relative peace, and our rich blessing as citizens is obvious to anyone who has traveled beyond our borders.

When one looks at a country where the Islamic faith predominates, we frequently see hardship and pain. The technology level of these countries, for the most part, doesn’t come close to that of the United States. Those countries which are somewhat developed, like India for example, simply use the technology to produce better weapons aimed at their (Muslim) neighbors–e.g. Pakistan.

If the Islamic faith is the true faith to you, how do you explain the lack of technological advancement in these countries? What is the contibution of the Middle East to the world’s state of affairs? What are you doing to improve living conditions in these poor countries and to encourage freedom of religion within those Islamic countries by non-Muslims? Each week I read examples of Christians who are killed in these countries for speaking their faith. To an outsider, it seems that the Islamic faith is only a road to grief and death.

 

[r.gonzales]

firstly, i’d like to say that i understand the concerns mentioned in the first post and i believe that they are justified and warranted given the situation we find ourselves in today with extremists running around and blowing stuff up and killing innocent people in the name of whatever they claim believe in and follow.
Gottle of Geer:

… Anjam Chaudhuri, the founder of Al-Muhajiroun … Omar Bakri Mohammed…

i’d like to mention here that the al-muhaajiroon group and its leaders, as well as the group it originated from, hizb at-tahreer, are upon deviant and heretic ideologies that are alien to islam and prophet muhammad’s teachings and are not to be considered authorities in islam. there have been many articles written about them and their deviant beliefs, so if you want, i can PM you links to them as they aren’t really related to the topic of this thread (or if others don’t mind and would prefer that i post them here, i can do that too).
Gottle of Geer:

• After all, the Muslims in the country attacked are also brothers of
• the Muslim breaking the law in the attacking, non-Muslim, country;
• and of the Muslims who refuse to report the law-breaking Muslims to the authorities of the non-Muslim country.

there are a few different of issues that come into play here…

firstly the issue of daar al-harb (the house of war). to my knowledge, the only ones who have labelled any of the western countries as being daar al-harb are those upon the methodology and ideologies of the deviant and heretic sect known as the khawaarij (eng. the rebels). i do not know of any of the legitimate scholars of islam who have declared any of the western countries to be “daar al-harb”.

second issue is that muslims living in non-muslim countries legally (i.e., meaning they’re either there as immigrants, refugees or as temporary residents due to work, school, etc.) are considered to have a covenant/treaty with that country. this is by the fact that they have either applied for a visa/residency/etc. to be in that country, and thus agree to abide by that country’s laws and regulatations. breaking the laws of that land, in essence, is breaking that covenant. such thing is extremely frowned upon in islam. then there is the issue of killing citizens of that land while a treaty or covenant exists between them and the severe threat of punishment for any muslim who does that - i can’t recall the wording of the hadeeth at the moment, but if i find it i’ll post it up.
Gottle of Geer:

This, as it stands, is perfectly intelligible - Muslims should not act against their Muslim brothers to the advantage of non-Muslims.

this is a general rule and does not apply 100% of the time. each situation must be judged according to the harms and benefits that exist. in the case of these terrorist attacks like 9/11 and the london bombings, not informing the authorities of such plans and having these plans come to fruition causes more harm to the general masses (and this includes harm to islam and the muslims) than good. a couple years ago, we asked one of the scholars from egypt whether or not we were allowed to inform the authorities of the non-muslim lands we live in if we knew of any plans for such terrorist attacks and he said that we should inform them to prevent the harm and chaos that would result from their actions.
Gottle of Geer:

Do we non-Muslims have any right at all to be dealt with honestly - or does Islam, or any part of it, require, allow, practice or encourage the notion that: non-Muslims can be deceived, or should or must be deceived, in the interests of Islam or of Allah ? And *if *the answer is, that we can or should or may be deceived - why ? ##

what is considered to be a sin in islam is a sin regardless if it’s done to a muslim or a non-muslim. so killing a life without right is forbidden - that is whether the life being killed is muslim or not. lying to another person is forbidden - that is whether the person being lied to is muslim or not. treating others justly and fairly is also an obligation for every muslim - whether the treatment be directed to other muslims or to non-muslims. if this was not the case, i don’t think it would be right for muslims to expect their calls and invitations to the religion to be taken seriously, let alone accepted.

islam is a religion of truth, justice and moderation. everything that is ordained and legislated in it is done so for the well being of mankind - whether it be the well being of an individual or the well being of the society as a whole. oppression is one of the worst sins a person can commit - regardless of whether that oppression was directed at himself or towards others.

 

[manualman]

As christians, we’d do well to turn some questions on their heads.

In the Middle Ages, the Islamic world dominated culture, philosophy and technology. Did that make Islam TRUE at that time? No. Neither is our technological superiority evidence of the truth of our faith. Jesus came back from the DEAD. Mohammed didn’t. Who needs the space shuttle as some kind of lame evidence for a superior faith?

Similar unpleasant questions could be asked about the behavior of nominal catholics during the years of the slave trade, conquistadors, etc. Are we upset when some imply that the actions of some poor examples of christianity are held up as the norm? You bet we are.

The majority of muslims do not make the evening news because they have NOT done anything horrifying.

That said, I am concerned about the lengthening reach of Islamism. What’s a westerner to do? Just how much CAN we trust our muslim neighbors? I dunno…

 

[meedo]

i am preparing a lengthy respense so please give me some time . Thanks Joe for yr kindness and unerstanding . I am nearly writing an artice to respond in details on thi ssubject . inshallah i will be answering all questions on the thread.

 

[Writer]

manualman:

As christians, we’d do well to turn some questions on their heads.

In the Middle Ages, the Islamic world dominated culture, philosophy and technology. Did that make Islam TRUE at that time? No. Neither is our technological superiority evidence of the truth of our faith. Jesus came back from the DEAD. Mohammed didn’t. Who needs the space shuttle as some kind of lame evidence for a superior faith?

Similar unpleasant questions could be asked about the behavior of nominal catholics during the years of the slave trade, conquistadors, etc. Are we upset when some imply that the actions of some poor examples of christianity are held up as the norm? You bet we are.

The majority of muslims do not make the evening news because they have NOT done anything horrifying.

That said, I am concerned about the lengthening reach of Islamism. What’s a westerner to do? Just how much CAN we trust our muslim neighbors? I dunno…

I think you misunderstand or over-simplify my question. It would be silly to look at this achievement or that one, and say “doesn’t this mean God is on our side?” On the other hand, when you look at Islamic countries as a whole and western nations as a whole, the comparison is pretty stark; there are so many differences in quality of life issues alone, that I think it is something worthy of further discussion. Why has their technology failed to advance with the rest of the modern world? Why are western nations giving more in aid for certain Islamic nations than Moslems themselves? Why does it appear to westerners that they are more focued on the past than on the future? Also, the question of violence against Christians appears to be another symptom of a culture in fear of outsiders. It seems to be this fear which is keeping them from improving living conditions, but I suspect there is also more to it than that. On the other hand, these observations don’t necessarily fit on this thread, and I don’t want to be responsible for a major digression!

 

[Ghosty]

I’d like to point out that the West is not predominantly Christian anymore, so I’m not sure what Writer’s point is.

 

[UnworthySoul]

While that is true, the history of the West is one of deep Christian influence. So regardless of a specific nation’s religious make-up now as opposed to 100 years ago, they are (believer or not) still influenced by Christian thought, wether they recognize it as such or not. That may be more of what was being alluded to. That’s an influence with deep roots and regardless of the amount of people embracing secularism (the believers in some sort of deity still vastly outnumber the unbelievers) and is not likely to change quickly. It will be more of a slow regression. That said, there is always the possibility of a resurgence of faith.

More likely still is the concept Pope Benedict XVI has suggested. Smaller numbers but with more foundationally solid faith. Quality over quantity. That IMO, is better than large numbers of adherents who are indifferent to it all.

 

[Ghosty]

My point is that I would hesitate to credit the “development” of the West with Christianity, espescially since most of its “development” has occured as it’s become secularized.

I would even question much of the value of the West’s “development”. I think talking about things like the space shuttle have absolutely no relevance to faith, and confuse the issue entirely. These things don’t relate to eachother at all, at least not in any corrolary way. As has been said, there was a time when the Islamic world was FAR more advanced than the Christian world, by an even larger degree than the West is compared to the East today. It means nothing.

 

[Writer]

Ghosty:

My point is that I would hesitate to credit the “development” of the West with Christianity, espescially since most of its “development” has occured as it’s become secularized.

I would even question much of the value of the West’s “development”. I think talking about things like the space shuttle have absolutely no relevance to faith, and confuse the issue entirely. These things don’t relate to eachother at all, at least not in any corrolary way. As has been said, there was a time when the Islamic world was FAR more advanced than the Christian world, by an even larger degree than the West is compared to the East today. It means nothing.

Okay…enough with the poor space shuttle! I was trying to illustrate a general technologically-friendly environment with an example, but it seems to be very distracting to folks.

I agree that I did not perhaps pose the question in the clearest possible manner, but I think the underlying issue of the post is clear. Yes, we all are familiar with the fact that hundreds of years ago, those of the Islamic faith perhaps had a more definable set of cultural or societal achievements to stand behind, but that’s not where we are today, is it?

The western nations which, as pointed out earlier, are still greatly influenced by Judeo-Christian thought have been continuing to advance in terms of technology, commerce, standard of living, medical care, etc, but I am not familiar with many scientific advancements (post Middle Ages) having come from Islamic nations.

I am not declaring this as some kind of “Karl’s Law”; I’m asking. I am not trying to offend, but trying to get a better understanding of how the Muslims see themselves in this regard. How is it that after the tsunami disaster earlier in the year, it was western nations who came to the aid of Islamic nations more so than their brothers in faith? Why isn’t the wealth of Saudi Arabia, for example, being used for humanitarian purposes as opposed to compensating suicide bombers in Israel, as I recall reading. I am just trying to understand.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

manualman:

As christians, we’d do well to turn some questions on their heads.

In the Middle Ages, the Islamic world dominated culture, philosophy and technology. Did that make Islam TRUE at that time? No. Neither is our technological superiority evidence of the truth of our faith. Jesus came back from the DEAD. Mohammed didn’t. Who needs the space shuttle as some kind of lame evidence for a superior faith?

Similar unpleasant questions could be asked about the behavior of nominal catholics during the years of the slave trade, conquistadors, etc. Are we upset when some imply that the actions of some poor examples of christianity are held up as the norm? You bet we are.

The majority of muslims do not make the evening news because they have NOT done anything horrifying.

That said, I am concerned about the lengthening reach of Islamism. What’s a westerner to do? Just how much CAN we trust our muslim neighbors? I dunno…

TY v. much for the post - it would not be difficult to point to the material culture of Cordova in 1150, for an example of a highly sophisticated culture which Christians were quite happy to learn a great deal from.​

Or to Catholic behaviour not unlike that of the Ayatollah Khomeini.

The notion that a faith is valid because of material culture & technology is tempting - but it’s much more OT than NT: and it doesn’t represent even all of the OT. ##

 

[Writer]

## TY v. much for the post - it would not be difficult to point to the material culture of Cordova in 1150, for an example of a highly sophisticated culture which Christians were quite happy to learn a great deal from.

Or to Catholic behaviour not unlike that of the Ayatollah Khomeini.

The notion that a faith is valid because of material culture & technology is tempting - but it’s much more OT than NT: and it doesn’t represent even all of the OT. ##

I will repeat yet again that no one’s saying that a particular faith is valid beacuse of those things, but when one examines the current state of affairs, the western nations enjoy a relatively high standard of living, freedom of speech, etc, but the Islamic nations, by and large, still seem to be living in 1150. There does appear to be an issue here worth further consideration. Do certain religions promote societal development and others promote stagnation and cultural decay? Since no one apparently has the desire to explore the issue on this thread, being too busy debating the language of the original post and dropping their anti-Catholic cliches, I will move on. If anyone has the semblence of a rational reply or answer (preferably from one of the Islamic faith), I’d be very interested in your thoughts.

Since 1150, what have the Islamic nations contributed in the way of scientific or cultural achievements? Why is the poverty of their nations so widespread and rampant? Why aren’t those nations taking steps to aid their brothers in regards to humanitarian needs? Is it because the present life to them is of so little consequence that they don’t care about these things the same way?

 

[meedo]

Hello again and Peace

–Are muslims bound by the law of the country they reside in?

Yep , there no need to argue about that . A muslim is in sort of contractual rfelationship with this country and should adher to the terms of teh contract.

–If i am a muslim in the united states find my neighbour muslim making a bomb an dtrying to kill someone should i report him ?

Yes without hesitation .

– Does a waqr against muslims make other muslims angry ?

Yes

– Do the 1500 million muslims hear what the right winged minds are saying about them ?

yes its a small world now with countless internet cables .

–If i am a muslim in sweden finding my nrighbour muslim making a bomb and trying to kill someone should i report him ?
Yes without hestitation.

– Do muslims feel very attached to other muslims around teh Globe ?

Yes very much so

– Is the muslim loyalties to Islam is more great than their loyalties to their countries ?

Yes .

– Even so what is said to be islamic countries ?!

Yep.

– Does this mean that one should betray his country if it attacks muslims?

No , one should work as much as he can in peaceful ways to prevent injustic from happening

– Does that mean i go make fooolish decisions about war against Islamic countries and inflame one quarter of planet earth ?

I dont think this is a good idea. Muslims will always be self restraint . but we arent police cops who go around spying on each other . It isnt our Job and it isnt us who initiated the trouble.

– Does the level of acceptance in the non muslim societies to muslims affect their passion for their new countries ?

This question doesnt really need an answer. Whatever you plant is what you will harvest .

Plant racism you get isolation
Plant hatred you get violence
Plant non acceptance you get Ghettos
Plant Jobless you get crime
Plant wars you get terrorism
Throw a bomb and wait to get bomb
Plant US you get THEM
Calkl them backwards and be called a snob .
Call them names and be called a bigot .
Call them terrorists they call you imperialist

–Do muslims percieve themselves fully entitled to all the rights just loike any other human on earth , even if western white countries ?

Yes

All rights?

yes

–Does that mean that they see the world should act to Israel occupying teretories in teh same manner that Hitler occupied france ?

Yes

—what if i wont do that ?

well then you make double standard.

—Whats the problem with israel bieng in the middle east and taking palestine?

same as the problem if Muslims occupied the netherland or any place in the heart of europe and became powerful than all the neighboring countries and turned it into an islamic state. See how europe will bhe annoyed and threatened all the time.They are already annoyed by 20 millions muslims among 500 million europeans . Imagine 250 million muslims immigrated to Europe in 20 years luike teh Zionist did in palestine in the same percentages .

—But muslims are barbaric and Israelis arent ?!

Thats yr own point of view sir . You state a fact for your self not for me . Come and visit me and i will show you how hospitable we are .That doesnt justify occupation.

—Why do you hate israel?

We dont hate it really . Its any normal person reaction when having in the middle of his region a totally different culture and religion suddenly forms a state on the ruins of one of his old poor neighbors. Imagine that happen to you and you will knwo the feeling .

—You must hate jews !!

Not a single bit . Thats a comfort statement for you sir . Jews have closer creed to Muslims than christians and Eat Kosher. Muslims saved jews from The inquisition and took them gladly into morroco . My grandma best friend was a jew . We love anti zionist jews and dont see any difference with them at all . Our problem is political and it doesnt ahve to do with race or creed . Its about occupied land and all who says otherwise doesnt knwo anything about the history of the conflict . May be lately things have been messed up and the newer generations mix Jews with israel which are two different things . There are even Non jewish Zionists.

to be continued in the next post

 

[meedo]

—What is yr problem with everything teh west does?!!

Well , After so much colonialism and support for dictators and double standard foreign policies , there is little trust and many fears fgrom any thing teh west does. We take it with a ton of salt .

—Oh man you seem hard headed there is no way we can reason with you !! Hopeless!

Completely wrong sir, if you come to my country and just mingle and dont make feel people you are above them or better than them then they will love you like one of them . Millions if toursists come to my country for tourism every year . I have an american in My firm that i just met yesterday . He is a white protestant from Chicago. He tells me about hwo people are friendly here to strangers. I was amazed it isnt the case every wherre in teh world but it seems it is . His family asked him to come back after the Bombings In Sjarm El Sheikh resort . The guy refused and actually extended his stay . He is having the fun of his life .

----So you wann atell me that you dont ave any problems with wetserners as your brothers in Humanity ?

why should i ?! In the Quran God tells us that he has created us in different races and peoples to get to know each other . Not to fight .

—So what is muslims problem ?

Suport for dictatorship , Double face foreign policy .

----Do we non muslims have any right to be dealt with in all honesty ? Is there anything in teh Quran that tells you to lie to non muslims?

You have every right to knwo the truth if you wanna hear it for teh sake of knowing it . if you wanna hear it to mock me and dismiss me as someone who isnt honest about everything i tell you then i will dismiss you as someone whom i dont need to pour my heart out to again and again and again begging him to believe me . The re is nowhere in my religion tat tells me to lie .

—why muslims doesnt condemn terrorism ? For the same reason Britain lies a little bit north of canada.

—Are you mocking me ? No i am just tired and burnt out from condemning into deaf ears taht doesnt wanna listen .

—You muslims are a bucn of bad people!

Ok now you made enemies with alot of people . Thank you for adding to the world peace with yr constructive black Vs white statement .

– Do muslims hate the west ?

Not a single bit

– Do muslims hate what the west sometiems do ?

Yep very much so

who are you to lecture me like this ? I am a 28 year old middle eastern arab muslim from the most populous arab middle eastern country Egypt. I am a conservative muslim and in the same time i dont see the world in balck and white cause that is just false and counterproductive. I have a uni degree and speak three language and been to the US and Sweden and Holland before . I go swimming and i attend lectures at the Mosque . I am an auditor for an international audit firm . I love western Comedies like naked Gun and the pink panther ( yes i knwo they are old but i love them lol) My usual attire is jeans and a tshirt when iam not working . a Nice article i read lately is this one

zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=22&ItemID=8118

I am your link between you and them lol to. So you have aGold mine lol Enjoy .

If you were in teh west would you approve to be racially profiled for searches ?

Sure , got nothing to hide. I just demand a respectful decent treatement .

Brothers and sisters

I have poured my heart out to you . There is really nothing mroe i can say .

I said the truth and Allah be my witness. If one do wish to dismiss what i said then he is free to do so. But all i said ironcially isnt new. It has been said and bieng said all over again and again and again .

It seems tat people who wanna hear teh truth , wanna hear the truth that they only want to hear , the truth that pleases their ears .

Muslims have been saying teh truth years and years and tens of years ago . No one hears them . becaise past mistakes is hard and embarassing . No body wants to delve into them . Some people also wanna get reelected and some others wanna have the Messiah decend on palestine so they wanna cramp as much as jews there as they can .

THIS IS THE TRUTH!!! THERE IS NOTHING MORE!!!

I wasnt yelling btw lol i am just writing in caps to draw attention.

Peace be to you and love

Meedo

 

[manualman]

Meedo, I REALLY appreciate your answers and perspective. It is a breath of fresh air to hear such reasoned discussion of these matters.

But I do have a question. What SHOULD all those Jews have done after WWII? Just keeled over and died? Nobody wanted them, nobody would take them, nobody offered them anything. They were released from the death camps, but were expected to just disappear. Can you really blame them for deciding that if they were going to face oblivion anyways, they might as well return to the homeland and all go down together?

Have you ever read about Haj Amin al-Husseini and his ties to Hitler? Do you ever wonder how things might be different if the jewish immigrants had been allowed to move in peacefully, buy land legitimately from willing sellers? (I recently sold my own house to a Mexican immigrant family) Move into places considered worthless by the residents at the time (kibbutzes)? Wouldn’t there have been enough room in Palestine for everybody if not for the hatred and killing? Zionism was a fringe opinion among Jews until reality eliminated all other options for survival.

Your posts about the impression people in your part of the world have are valuable to me, thank you. I CAN see how you must feel that Israeli is an artificial intrusion in that part of the world. But I would like you to try to place yourself in the place of a major jewish leader in 1945. What would you have done?

 

[meedo]

Manuelman

Thank you brother for your understanding. It’s a breath of fresh air for me to be here in this respectful forum. I feel very welcome and I thank you again for your hospitality.

You said

“But I do have a question. What SHOULD all those Jews have done after WWII? Just keeled over and died? Nobody wanted them”

Why brother? Why nobody wanted the Jews? I tell you confidently right now that I don’t have any problem of any Jew coming and living right next door to me. I don’t have any problem if million Jew come and live in my country and Allah is my witness.

“”, nobody would take them, nobody offered them anything. They were released from the death camps, but were expected to just disappear. Can you really blame them for deciding that if they were going to face oblivion anyways, they might as well return to the homeland and all go down together?""

Brother
Their Home land 3000 years ago for 100 years? Sadly brother there was nothing called a Jewish home land. Yes there was a promised land. But if we take that logic then there is going to be so many problems in the world. Imagine if the Native Americans came to kick you out of two thirds of America. Imagine if all the Americans came and occupied Britain because it was the Homeland of their ancestors. Imagine if the Sikhs (which are much more numbers of the Jews) decided to make their own independence. Imagine… imagine. …imagine.

Brother, the Muslims treated the Jews much better than some bad Christians did. Look at the Inquisition. Look at who done the Holocaust.

Of course they don’t represent the true teaching of Jesus and they don’t represent the mainstream Christianity in no way, but it’s a fact that Jews had the problem or burden of being labeled Christ killers in Islamic countries.

Do you know that there is 200 Jews in Egypt right now who are properly Egyptian and they are living peacefully and never had ONE intimidation whatsoever? Even though with all what happening in Israel?

“”"Have you ever read about Haj Amin al-Husseini and his ties to Hitler? “”

I have heard of this subject and yes he might have had ties to Hitler. But can you blame him?? His country is occupied by the British and they are bringing foreign people to His land without his people’s permission and kicking his people out of their homes and making gangs to terrify them?

Can you answer me honestly? If I occupy America and bring in 150 million Muslim in a matter of 20 years and kick you out of your homes and the Soviet union would offer to rid you of me and these people who come and settle in your land while you are occupied .The soviet union tells you they have no interest but defeating these bad Muslims who occupied yr land and making you free again. Would you accept his help or not?

to be completed

 

[meedo]

Brother, why didn’t the Huge United states give them a small state? In which they all can go there in unity and be with their European counterparts that have the same mindset?

""Do you ever wonder how things might be different if the Jewish immigrants had been allowed to move in peacefully, “”

Brother do u know how many Arab Jews existed peacefully already in Palestine before the Zionist came? Does u know how many Jews existed and exist peacefully in Morocco? Does u know how many Christians existed peacefully in Palestine? Do u know how many Jews and Christians existed peacefully in the whole Arab world?

“”“Zionism was a fringe opinion among Jews until reality eliminated all other options for survival.”"

Brother, if you try to take some peoples land then you will face hard reality, and justified reality. You can come be my neighbor. Just don’t take my country. I think that’s fair. The Jews had all the chances for survival. But not a single western country wanted them all to come to it!!!

Brother, nobody should give tips from other people’s pockets. The Jews have the right to come and reside. Not to take lands and claim a state that wasn’t theirs.

““But I would like you to try to place yourself in the place of a major Jewish leader in 1945. What would you have done?””

I wouldn’t have made the Palestinians pay the price for what the Germans did to me that’s for sure. Muslims saved the Jews when it was the inquisition. Now we really really feel betrayed by the Zionists.

But I am optimistic and I am sure that most Jews are fair people with good hearts and God willingly will give the Palestinians their land back and all will live in peace

I make a plead to my christian brothers to put themselves into other peoples shoes . The jews had the right to buy the land and they already bought land but i am sure that if you would know that your mexican brother would add this piece of land to the Mexican government and claim it to be Mexico then i am sure you would have a different opinion . this isnt the same case sadly .

Please please brothers and sister apply the terms you want the muslims or arabs to live by to yourselves and be honest to know if you like them or not .

Brother manuel man i hope i didnt upset you . You are a good man and i have read many of your posts and they are nice posts. Its just so hard on one self when he feels he is dont injustice to and the people who arent in his shoes are asking him somthing that might not be somthing they want for themselves if they werte put into it .

Love you all

Peace be upon you .

 

[manualman]

No offense taken! Just the kind of discussion and sharing of viewpoints that might someday end nightmares like this.

Meedo, you outlined a legitimate grievance against the nations of Europe and America circa 1945, not the Jewish leaders at the time. Had those nations had the guts to investigate and compensate imprisoned Jews for their lost property, given them land areas to settle and credible guarantees of safety, there would have been no mass migration to Palestine.

But that didn’t happen. Right or wrong, the Jewish survivors of the Nazi camps perceived that they had no hope of survival in Europe. They did what probably everybody here would do if the whole world decided shooting catholics was good sport. We’d pack up and get ourselves to the one place we’d heard that there was an organized plan to survive as a people: ROME! In their case, it was the Jewish Agency in Palestine.

Palestine of 1945 wasn’t crowded! And these refugees weren’t Attila the Hun! They were emaciated former shopkeepers and bankers and such. The Jewish Agency were geniuses at buying land everyone thought was worthless and kibbutzing it into something productive. Failure meant death. Until Haj Amin started stirring up shameful fears among Palestinians, these immigrants were almost all peaceful, harmless folk who just wanted a chance to live. At that time, they regarded thug Zionists like the Irgun the same as you see Al-Queda today.

If it weren’t for jealousy and hatred and the fear mongering sown by Haj Amin and his allies, everyone could have prospered and no-one forced from their homes. Deir Yassen and all the other vengeance inspired horrors need never have happened. In the mid 1940’s, all the injustice you perceive in the Palestinian plight was reversed; all the power, all the might, all the weapons were held by the Palestinians. Radio broadcasts every day proclaimed that as soon as the British departed, the Jews would be ‘driven into the sea.’ Israeli policy to this day assumes that if they stop being strong and vigilant for 30 seconds, those days will return.