When only one can live

[Radiowave]

So I’ll ask you the same question I asked earlier. Would you ever consider putting a gun to the mother’s head, against her will, and blowing her brains out in order to save the baby?

I wouldnt, but it seems the catholic church has no problem doing so metaphoriccally, when it comes down to it.

 

[Radiowave]

I think what you may not be able to grasp is this. In this exceedingly rare occasion its not choosing the life of something growing in the mother over the mother. Its choosing the life of the child of that mother.

I understand perfectly. But the fact of the matter is I would never have let the life growing in my womb - and yes I believe it’s a life and yes I am anti-abortion in general - deny me my other children who need me. And it is an act of unbelievable cruelty for the church to make me feel like I am a criminal, and condemned to hell, for putting the lives of my living children before the live of an as yet unborn child, in a medical emergency.
I am only talking about medical emergencies here, not a situation where being pregnant has suddenly become a bit of an inconvenience.

 

[josephdaniel29]

I wouldnt, but it seems the catholic church has no problem doing so metaphoriccally, when it comes down to it.

So it’s not okay to blow the mother’s brains out to save the baby, but it is okay to dismember and suck the child’s brains out to save the mother. What is your basis for that belief?

The Catholic Church (notice the capitalization) believes both the mother and the child are unique individuals created in the image of God and that both lives have the same intrinsic value. If you hold firmly to that belief there is no way to make it morally permissible to kill one to save the other.

In Christ
Joe

 

[Radiowave]

So it’s not okay to blow the mother’s brains out to save the baby, but it is okay to dismember and suck the child’s brains out to save the mother. What is your basis for that belief?

The Catholic Church (notice the capitalization) believes both the mother and the child are unique individuals created in the image of God and that both lives have the same intrinsic value. If you hold firmly to that belief there is no way to make it morally permissible to kill one to save the other.

In Christ
Joe

I hold the view my child in my womb as the right to life and I will do all in my power to ensure she or he is born but in the even of it becoming a choice between the unborn baby and leaving my 6 other children without a mother I will not do that to them.
And how dare anyone from any church tell me I am a wicked and evil person for having to make that choice. I resent it all the more when it comes from a male dominated theological framework made up of individual who can never find themselves in that position.

 

[limabeanerson]

I understand perfectly. But the fact of the matter is I would never have let the life growing in my womb - and yes I believe it’s a life and yes I am anti-abortion in general - deny me my other children who need me. And it is an act of unbelievable cruelty for the church to make me feel like I am a criminal, and condemned to hell, for putting the lives of my living children before the live of an as yet unborn child, in a medical emergency.
I am only talking about medical emergencies here, not a situation where being pregnant has suddenly become a bit of an inconvenience.

Interesting. Would you, if put in this very rare situation, sacrifice your life for one of your children which has already left your womb?

 

[Radiowave]

both lives have the same intrinsic value. Joe

Doctors make this choice all the time - medical emergency - 2 people both of whose lives are equally valuable - one doctor - who does she chose???
Does anyone cendemn her for not saving both???
Of course not - that would be rediculous!!!
She has to make a choice.
Just like me.
And I chose my life for the sake of my children.
But apparently Im wicked evil and condemned to hell.
Well, I say THAT system is wicked and evil.

 

[limabeanerson]

I hold the view my child in my womb as the right to life and I will do all in my power to ensure she or he is born but in the even of it becoming a choice between the unborn baby and leaving my 6 other children without a mother I will not do that to them.
And how dare anyone from any church tell me I am a wicked and evil person for having to make that choice. I resent it all the more when it comes from a male dominated theological framework made up of individual who can never find themselves in that position.

I’d ask you the same question as I asked the other person. Would you sacrifice your life for one of your other children which has already left your womb?

Also, I’m pretty sure the Catholic Church does not say you are a wicked and evil person if you do kill your child in this way. They would say that particular action was wicked and evil but would love you none the less and pray for you and encourage you to go to confession so you could restore your state of grace!

 

[Radiowave]

Interesting. Would you, if put in this very rare situation, sacrifice your life for one of your children which has already left your womb?

No I wouldnt and leave 5 other children all under the age of 12 with no father either and no relatives able to keep them together as a family.
No.
I wouldnt.
These moral blackmail attempts are dispicable.
I would do everything to save my child but I would not sacrifice my life - I have 6 people to consider, not 1.

 

[limabeanerson]

No I wouldnt and leave 5 other children all under the age of 12 with no father either and no relatives able to keep them together as a family.
No.
I wouldnt.
These moral blackmail attempts are dispicable.
I would do everything to save my child but I would not sacrifice my life - I have 6 people to consider, not 1.

Its hardly a moral black male, simply showing that I see the lives of all my children as equal, including those that are unborn.

You are one of very few people that answers the way that you did saying you would allow one of your children to die in your place. I can at least respect you for treating all your children equally (born and unborn) even if I disagree with your choice.

 

[josephdaniel29]

I hold the view my child in my womb as the right to life and I will do all in my power to ensure she or he is born but in the even of it becoming a choice between the unborn baby and leaving my 6 other children without a mother I will not do that to them.
And how dare anyone from any church tell me I am a wicked and evil person for having to make that choice. I resent it all the more when it comes from a male dominated theological framework made up of individual who can never find themselves in that position.

Wow, it only took you five post to fall back on the old “you have a penis so you’re not allowed to have an opinion about abortion” canard. Since you’re not Catholic perhaps you shouldn’t be allowed to have an opinion on Catholicism?

Are you not capable of having a rational, logical discussion? I ask this because it’s been my experience that people who use these tactics, much like people who use the race card, are incapable of winning an argument based on logic and reason. So instead of trying to refute the argument you simply attempt to discredit your opponent.

Where do you think we would be now if there had been no whites standing up for the rights of African slaves, or men standing up for women’s suffrage? Either way, the unborn have no voice of their own. I can assure you, God expects us to stand up for their rights regardless of the equipment between our legs.

In Christ
Joe

 

[Radiowave]

Wow, it only took you five post to fall back on the old “you have a penis so you’re not allowed to have an opinion about abortion” canard.

I said I resent then telling me Im evil and wicked when they can never find themselves in that position or know what a woman goes through mentally at that point, not that theyre not entitled to have an opinion.

Are you not capable of having a rational, logical discussion?

So, because you dont like what Im saying, its irrational or Im just an hysterical woman is it?

So instead of trying to refute the argument you simply attempt to discredit your opponent.

Im not discrediting anyone, Im rejecting the judgement the catholic church, and as I said maybe others, I dont know, would inflict on me for finding myself not by choice in that situation, and chosing to preserve my life of that of the unborn baby, not for my sake, but the sake of my 6 children. I am not prepared to leave them orphans, regardless of what the pope or church says. And how dare they judge me for it.

God expects us to stand up for their rights regardless of the equipment between our legs.

This is why I reject all this now. No god, if such a thing existed, would make me the way Im made, then inflict a medical condition, then send me to hell for chosing to take an action that means I continue to live and look after my family, rather than leavee them all orphans! What an utterly callous notion.

 

[Corki]

Okay, so basically the woman isn’t allowed to have sex, then?

That would be one choice but it isn’t a matter or what she is “allowed”. There are many ways to make sure that having sex with her husband has a very low chance of resulting in pregnancy - some of those are even more reliable that contraceptive use.

So is a woman allowed or not allowed to get a hysterectomy?

There is nothing in Church teaching against hysterectomies. For any diseased organ, it is permissable to treat the disease, even to the point of removing the organ.

Now if a woman wanted a hysterectomy as a way to prevent pregnancy, that would be wrong. The Church’s teaching does not allow for the removal of a non-diseased organ for the purpose of thrwarting one of the ends of marriage. I would question the judgement of any doctor willing to do a hysterectomy on a woman with a healthy uterous anyway.

 

[Loboto-Me]

No I wouldnt and leave 5 other children all under the age of 12 with no father either and no relatives able to keep them together as a family.
No.
I wouldnt.
These moral blackmail attempts are dispicable.
I would do everything to save my child but I would not sacrifice my life - I have 6 people to consider, not 1.

I don’t know what “anti theist” means… would that be atheist or against religion in general?

The difference between most of us and you, the choice we would make is probably because we have a deep trust in God. Trusting God, we would risk our lives for one of our children, knowing that there’s a chance that our life would be lost and the other children left behind. We trust that God would provide for those kids in the very end should something happen to us.

PS: I would love to know how safe and secure your children would feel if they knew that you would not save one of them if he/she were at the window of a burning building just because their siblings are safe and you might be killed. I suggest you never utter this to one of them.

 

[Radiowave]

I don’t know what “anti theist” means… would that be atheist or against religion in general?

I am against the idea idea that if there is a god, that god tells certain people stuff that then allows them to have power over other peoples lives. Where these people have the audacity to tell me Im going to hell if I have sex when Im not married, if I abort a fetus to preserve my life for the sake of my other children because I refuse to leave them orphans, where I have to go to a man to ask forgiveness for something I had absolutely no control over in the first place!

The difference between most of us and you, the choice we would make is probably because we have a deep trust in God. Trusting God, we would risk our lives for one of our children, knowing that there’s a chance that our life would be lost and the other children left behind. We trust that God would provide for those kids in the very end should something happen to us.

This makes not sense what so ever. God doesnt provide for those kids, other people do. If there was a god, he wouldnt take the mother or father in the first place.
But I know how the arguement goes - youre supposed to trust in god yet accept he decided to let your father die of a horrific disease - and if you dont succeed or do well, well then you havent trusted in god enough! What a load of old… !!!
No loving god would leave me widowed. No loving god would make me chose between me or my unborn child. No loving god would take my job away at the exact moment in time I need as much money as I can just to stay alive and look after my family. No loving god would have taken my own father away when we were all little children. No loving god would leave my daughters friends bereft when their firend dropped dead in a dress rehersal of a heart attack at 14.
Nope, the only way to make sense of it is to take god out of it. Then, it’s just life, and life is tough. But at least the focus can be where it needs to be - in improving and digging deep to find the resources needed to stay alive - not looking to the sky for something that isnt there then blaming them when things go wrong.
But the priest class would have me believe Im evil and wicked and all tis is somehow MY fault because I dont trust enough.
These guys can never lose if you buy their fairytale and fairy dust. Because if something good happens, it’s god, if somethng bad happens, its gods punishment or your didnt trust or believe or pray enough!!!

 

[Radiowave]

PS: I would love to know how safe and secure your children would feel if they knew that you would not save one of them if he/she were at the window of a burning building just because their siblings are safe and you might be killed. I suggest you never utter this to one of them.

How utterly dispicable of you to try and use such vile hypotheticals.
I would do everything in my power to save one of my children. But I will NOT die needlessly in childbirth and leave my other children orphans.
You can disagree with that position. But dont you DARE question my motherhood when you dont have to first clue of who I am or what I have been through!
How dare you.

 

[Loboto-Me]

Ah but you are angry at God for seeing what would have been had things not happened the way they did in your life and the life of those around you. So what’s happened is that God doesn’t exist because He allowed things to happen?

The only thing I did was to quote where you said you wouldn’t risk your life for one of your already born children because you need to be there for them, and show you that what you’re saying is “despicable” as well.

Would you even dare to tell them that one of them is not as important than the rest of them? That the risk to your life is not worth the life of one of them in case the others should be left behind? Do you even see that because of your non-belief, this brings your children’s lives not to be equal in dignity, born or unborn?

 

[Radiowave]

Im happy your mother survived. Im happy you survived. She made a different choice to me, so she doesnt need to worry about incuring the ire of the church.

 

[Radiowave]

Ah but you are angry at God for seeing what would have been had things not happened the way they did in your life and the life of those around you. So what’s happened is that God doesn’t exist because He allowed things to happen?

No I was highlighting the stupidity of the arugements used by some. I cant be angry at something that isnt there - it just took me to a certain event to realise that.

The only thing I did was to quote where you said you wouldn’t risk your life for one of your already born children because you need to be there for them, and show you that what you’re saying is “despicable” as well.

Who gave you the right to judge me? That’s the trouble with religious types of all faiths - they feel they can.

Do you even see that because of your non-belief, this brings your children’s lives not to be equal in dignity, born or unborn?

Are you suggesting I need to believe in a god for my children to have any dignity? What nonsense.

 

[Radiowave]

I already said I am against abortion in almost all cases. The exception is when the mothers life is at risk.
That is hell enough. I then stupidly allowed the church to put me through another type of hell.
Until I woke up!

 

[Radiowave]

Thank you for the first part. I reject the second part only in so far as it specifical relates to a medical emergency.