When or is the death penalty alright?

[Portrait]

Strange; but unless I’m missing something I see no biblical mandates at all with the exception of lay people claiming to be scholars and theologians taking scripture passages out of context and asserting absolutes.

Dear Centurionguard,

If Genesis 9: 6 is not a divine sanction for capital punishement, then quite frankly I do not no whatt is - even the Catholic Church recognises this in the Catechism (see para. 2260 and please note that it states after citing the text that this teaching remains necessary for all time).

Would you be so kind as to inform me which scripture passages you feel I am taking out of context?

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

 

[CWBetts]

Dear CWBetts,

If God mandated capital punishment, which no one would seriously deny, then it is surely manifestly reasonble to draw the inference that the death penalty cannot be inimical or contrary to any notions of mercy or compassion that we may happen to subjectively embrace . To assert that it is so contrary to mercy or compassion is tantamount to stating that God Himself is not merciful or compassionate - perish the thought. That surely is not “faulty logic” but, on the contrary, a very compelling and cogent argument in favour of capital punishment.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Compelling? Hardly. If you want to use Old testament law to defend the death penalty, then it must be expanded to many more offenses than murder and treason

 

[diggerdomer]

What are the conditions in which bloodless means are available? I can possibly think of many ways the authority could use bloodless means in order to imprison offenders in the past.

Exactly

 

[fish90]

I think you may have mistaken this post. I am referring to the use of capital punishment during previous history. There were “prisons” and other methods of imprisonment that could have been used but the death penalty was never questioned as much as it is today. For instance, a murderer could have been sentenced to hard work, being chained, and etc.

I wish this makes sense to anybody.

 

[diggerdomer]

Yes, as a matter of fact He did. In every healing miracle that Jesus performed, the person was not healed until they had professed their belief in Him, with the one exception being the casting out of demons. Go ahead and look them up. It’s true every time. Have fun verifying that.

Don’t ask a question if you don’t want to hear the answer.

I never ask a question without wanting to hear an answer.

One example to refute your claim: the woman with the hemorrhage who touched Jesus’ cloak and was healed. See Luke chapter 8. She didn’t profess any belief, in fact, as Luke relates it, Jesus asked who touched his cloak.

Comments?

Or do you need more examples?

 

[Portrait]

Dear CWBetts,

The death penalty is mandated by the Almighty Himself in Sacred Scripture:

Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed; for God made man in his own image. (Genesis 9: 6).

As regards the perpetuity of this divine institution, no consideration is more pertinent than this: the reason given for exacting such a penalty (or, if one will, the reason for the propriety of execution on the part of man) is one that has permanent relevance and validity. Since there has been no suspension of the fact that man was made in the image of God, capital punishment is as true today as it was in the days of Noah.

Moreover, to this must be added the observation that, in respect of our relations to our fellow men, no crime is as extreme and, as concerning the person who is the victim, none is as irremediable, as the crime of taking life itself. Furthermore, in no other instance of biblical jurisprudence is the reason for the infliction of a penalty stated to be that man is made in the image of God. That consideration is reserved soley for this particular crime and for the sanction by which it is penalized. Thus the institution of capital punishment for murder is in an entirely different category from tose other provisions of the Pentateuch in which putting to death was enjoined for many other offences. Not only do the time and circumstances of the institution differ; the reasons which underlie the sanction in this case are radically different. We have good reason, therefore, for maintaining that the institution is of permanent obligation. So Sacred Scripture and God Himself actually encourages, indeed demands, the death penalty for murder.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Dear CWBetts,

In my previous posting to you (see above) I have already treated the issue as to why the death penalty has permenant validity in contradistinction to the other offences in the O.T. in which it was also stipulated as a punishment. In no other instance is capital punishment mandated on the grounds that man is made in the image of God and herein lies the uniqueness of the death penalty for murder and why there is no biblical evidence to intimate that it has been rescinded. Moreover, it is also one of the reasons why our Church continues to permit its use (see C.C.C. para. 2260, and please note that after citing Genesis 9: 6 it states This teaching remains necessary for all time).

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

 

[centurionguard]

** Originally Posted by Portrait View Post
Dear CWBetts,

The death penalty is mandated by the Almighty Himself in Sacred Scripture:

Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed; for God made man in his own image. (Genesis 9: 6).

As regards the perpetuity of this divine institution, no consideration is more pertinent than this: the reason given for exacting such a penalty (or, if one will, the reason for the propriety of execution on the part of man) is one that has permanent relevance and validity. Since there has been no suspension of the fact that man was made in the image of God, capital punishment is as true today as it was in the days of Noah.

Moreover, to this must be added the observation that, in respect of our relations to our fellow men, no crime is as extreme and, as concerning the person who is the victim, none is as irremediable, as the crime of taking life itself. Furthermore, in no other instance of biblical jurisprudence is the reason for the infliction of a penalty stated to be that man is made in the image of God. That consideration is reserved solely for this particular crime and for the sanction by which it is penalized. Thus the institution of capital punishment for murder is in an entirely different category from tose other provisions of the Pentateuch in which putting to death was enjoined for many other offences. Not only do the time and circumstances of the institution differ; the reasons which underlie the sanction in this case are radically different. We have good reason, therefore, for maintaining that the institution is of permanent obligation. So Sacred Scripture and God Himself actually encourages, indeed demands, the death penalty for murder.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait**

Given your supportive statement above, I have to ask in what conscionable regards from an interior spiritual plane do those who are modern executioners today carry in their thoughts when procuring the actual death of the guilty prisoner himself-herself? Is it one of disgust, hate, indifference, ridicule, even if such thoughts enter their minds. Certainly little if any compassion enters a executioners mind who carries out the actual death sentence. And what of the executioners dreams, memories, flashbacks, etc knowing that it was he or she who actual put a human being to death?

To put this in more prospective I wonder how any of us here on this site would feel inside if we were forced by the law of the land to take our duty of giving a lethal injection, throwing the switch for the gas chamber, or putting the noose around the prisoners neck and moving the lever for the trap door.

Isn’t it interesting how we are all correct and devoted in are moral certitudes?

 

[Ender]

Strange; but unless I’m missing something I see no biblical mandates at all with the exception of lay people claiming to be scholars and theologians taking scripture passages out of context and asserting absolutes.

The passage (Gen 9:6) has not been taken out of context; that is precisely the interpretation the Church gives to it. I make no claim to scholarship beyond being able to understand what the Church has written and the section on capital punishment in the Catechism of Trent is (compared to 2267) long, detailed, and clear. These are her explanations, not ours.

- Another kind of lawful slaying belongs to the civil authorities, to whom is entrusted power of life and death

• • The just use of this power, far from involving the crime of murder, is** an act of paramount obedience** to this Commandment which prohibits murder. *
• • So much does God abominate homicide that He declares in Holy Writ that of the very beast of the field He will exact vengeance for the life of man, commanding the beast that injures man to be put to death. (Gen 9:5)
    - Nay, as it is forbidden in Genesis to take human life, because God created man to his own image and likeness*** … (Gen 9:6)

CWBetts:

Compelling? Hardly. If you want to use Old testament law to defend the death penalty, then it must be expanded to many more offenses than murder and treason

It is the Church, not us, who cites the Old Testament; she cited it in the past (Trent) and cites it today (2260). As to whether it must be expanded to include other offenses, that is for the Church to determine. She has not claimed it is mandated for anything other than murder.

Ender

 

[ahollars]

I never ask a question without wanting to hear an answer.

One example to refute your claim: the woman with the hemorrhage who touched Jesus’ cloak and was healed. See Luke chapter 8. She didn’t profess any belief, in fact, as Luke relates it, Jesus asked who touched his cloak.

Comments?

Or do you need more examples?

You are blatantly ignoring the comment she made before she touched his cloak.

Go back and read it again.

 

[diggerdomer]

You are blatantly ignoring the comment she made before she touched his cloak.

Go back and read it again.

I am not ignoring (blatantly or otherwise) anything. If I make a mistake I am happy to be corrected.

In the translation I looked at, from the USCCB web site, here’s what’s recounted:

And a woman afflicted with hemorrhages for twelve years, who (had spent her whole livelihood on doctors and) was unable to be cured by anyone, came up behind him and touched the tassel on his cloak. Immediately her bleeding stopped. Jesus then asked, “Who touched me?”

I don’t read there that she made any comment. Do you have a different translation, or can you clarify? Thanks.

 

[CWBetts]

Dear CWBetts,

If God mandated capital punishment, which no one would seriously deny, then it is surely manifestly reasonble to draw the inference that the death penalty cannot be inimical or contrary to any notions of mercy or compassion that we may happen to subjectively embrace . To assert that it is so contrary to mercy or compassion is tantamount to stating that God Himself is not merciful or compassionate - perish the thought. That surely is not “faulty logic” but, on the contrary, a very compelling and cogent argument in favour of capital punishment.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

God also mandated capital punishment for adultery. Should that be enforced? Do you only pay attention the the Scriptures that support your claims (or seem to)? Do you fail to understand Scripture is a unified whole, and needs to be read as such. Taking a single verse, and not investigating how it fits in with the whole of Salvation History is a very quick way to come up with false teachings, such as “the Death Penalty is to be encouraged”

 

[ahollars]

I am not ignoring (blatantly or otherwise) anything. If I make a mistake I am happy to be corrected.

In the translation I looked at, from the USCCB web site, here’s what’s recounted:

I don’t read there that she made any comment. Do you have a different translation, or can you clarify? Thanks.

Okay, I haven’t read it word for word in awhile, but here goes:

When the woman realized that she had not escaped notice, she came forward trembling. Falling down before him, she explained in the presence of all the people why she had touched him and how she had been healed immediately. He said to her, “Daughter, your faith has saved you; go in peace.”

~Luke 8:47-48~

Obviously, Jesus didn’t heal everyone in the crowd who touched Him as He walked through it. Only this woman who touched Him on purpose for the right reason was healed.

 

[Portrait]

God also mandated capital punishment for adultery. Should that be enforced? Do you only pay attention the the Scriptures that support your claims (or seem to)? Do you fail to understand Scripture is a unified whole, and needs to be read as such. Taking a single verse, and not investigating how it fits in with the whole of Salvation History is a very quick way to come up with false teachings, such as “the Death Penalty is to be encouraged”

Dear CWBetts,

Nowhere in Sacred Scripture do we read that God instituted capital punishment for adultery because man was made in the image of God, however we do so read it in the case of murder and, as I have already stated, herein lies its uniquiness and why it has perpetual validity. Moreover our Church in its Catechism acknowledges this also but, like Scripture, not for any other offences.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

 

[CWBetts]

Dear CWBetts,

Nowhere in Sacred Scripture do we read that God instituted capital punishment for adultery because man was made in the image of God, however we do so read it in the case of murder and, as I have already stated, herein lies its uniquiness and why it has perpetual validity. Moreover our Church in its Catechism acknowledges this also but, like Scripture, not for any other offences.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

So you deny that the penalty for adultery was ever death?

 

[diggerdomer]

Okay, I haven’t read it word for word in awhile, but here goes:

When the woman realized that she had not escaped notice, she came forward trembling. Falling down before him, she explained in the presence of all the people why she had touched him and how she had been healed immediately. He said to her, “Daughter, your faith has saved you; go in peace.”

~Luke 8:47-48~

Obviously, Jesus didn’t heal everyone in the crowd who touched Him as He walked through it. Only this woman who touched Him on purpose for the right reason was healed.

So you agree with me then, contrary to your prior post, that she was healed prior to any request or confession to Jesus?

Glad you finally read it for yourself.

 

[Portrait]

So you deny that the penalty for adultery was ever death?

Dear CWBetts,

Forgive my obtuseness, but I do not understand your line of resoning. No of course I do not deny that the penalty for adultery was death (my apologies if I led you to believe that I did), however I most emphatically do deny that, in the case of adultery, the reason given for its institution was because man was made in the image of God. In the case of the death penalty for murder, and in that case only, it is specifically stated as the reason given for its sanction (see Gen. 9: 6). As I have said in a previous posting, the fact of man being made in the image of God is the entire rationale for the death penalty for murder.

Trust that this has helped clarify my meaning.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

 

[CWBetts]

Dear CWBetts,

Forgive my obtuseness, but I do not understand your line of resoning. No of course I do not deny that the penalty for adultery was death (my apologies if I led you to believe that I did), however I most emphatically do deny that, in the case of adultery, the reason given for its institution was because man was made in the image of God. In the case of the death penalty for murder, and in that case only, it is specifically stated as the reason given for its sanction (see Gen. 9: 6). As I have said in a previous posting, the fact of man being made in the image of God is the entire rationale for the death penalty for murder.

Trust that this has helped clarify my meaning.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Well Genesis 9:6 is a weak defense for the death penalty. If it is a justification for the death penalty, it is also a justification for vigilante justice. My point is, the application of the death penalty is not dogma, but practice, and as such can change.

 

[4elise]

Dear CWBetts,

The fact that our Catechism allows latitude of opinion as regards the death penalty is most unsatisfactory to say the least, especially since human life is invloved. Clarification of this issue by the Magisterium needs to be undertaken as a matter of urgency; the present ambiguity is only leading to confusion among the faithful as the present debate has clearly evinced.

In the final analysis our own subjective opinions as to what is or is not merciful are totally irrelevant to the debate; clearly if God sanctioned capital punishment, as he most certainly did (Gen. 9: 6), then it is patently evident that it cannot be inimical or contrary to any merciful considerations, otherwise we imply that God Himself was unmerciful in instituting the death penalty in the first place.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

In a July 10, 2009 statement welcoming Mexico’s new ambassador to the Vatican, Pope Benedict congratulated the Mexican government for having formally repealed the nation’s death penalty laws in 2005.

“It cannot be overemphasized that the right to life must be recognized in all its fullness,” the pope said. He called upon governments to enact laws and public policies that “take into account the high value that a human being has at every moment of existence,” and added: “In this context, I joyfully welcome the initiative by which Mexico abolished the death penalty in 2005, and the recent measures adopted by some Mexican states to protect human life from its beginnings."

So the clarification of this issue by the Magisterium does not seem to be supporting your position.

 

[4elise]

I just hope Mr Betts will not want to be victorious in argument enough to state falshood or exaggerate when it comes to written works. There is just no doubt, after examining any credible writer, up to about 1980, that the Roman Catholic Church, founded by Christ, approved of the use, and the reasons therefor, of capital punishment. **Then the persons who wanted to change it basically said, “And now, dispite the hundreds of years of stating differently, we just are sorry we said those things, and even though we cant say the d.p. is immoral (because we said it wasnt for centuries), (that’s why the catachism says it is permitted, morally) we just dont like it anymore!” **
and to that we say…“sorry dont get it.”
You know, Mr B never answered my question whether he would have denied the court in the Hague the right to execute Hitler if he had been caught and convicted. …hmmmmmmm…Do you suppose there is a real tiger in there??

So… who is it you are saying are the ‘persons who wanted to change it’ that said this AND had the authority to make that addition?
Pope JPII? Pope Benedict?

 

[Ender]

God also mandated capital punishment for adultery.

Do not confuse the Mosaic Code with God’s covenant with Noah. The Mosaic Code contained laws that were valid for that time but not for all time, otherwise it would not have included provision for divorce, which Christ specifically mentioned and repudiated. The covenant with Noah however, as the Church herself says, is valid for all time.

Do you only pay attention the the Scriptures that support your claims (or seem to)? Do you fail to understand Scripture is a unified whole, and needs to be read as such.

We have done nothing more than simply repeat what the Church teaches. The interpretation of Gen 9:6 is not our opinion, it is set out in 2260. Why is it valid for you to cite 2267 and somehow invalid for us to mention a contradictory section of the same Catechism?

Other than that it appears in the current Catechism there is no support for the position laid out in 2267; that is, the only argument in favor of it is “the pope said so.” There is no historical basis for it. As for 2260, the entire history of the Church lies behind it; everything said about capital punishment at least until 1980 supports 2260. Nothing whatever supports 2267.

Ender