When or is the death penalty alright?

[iluvburpees]

YES. To do what the Holy Father has forbidden you is to fail to show deference to legitimate authority, and as such, is a violation of the 4th commandment. If you disagree the Holy Father, you discuss, and if he still decides against you, you obey. To be disobedient to the Holy Father puts you in the same class as Luther, Calvin, and Zwingli

Tell that to St. Paul who sternly rebuked St. Peter…

 

[CWBetts]

Tell that to St. Paul who sternly rebuked St. Peter…

But did not disobey. Which LeFebvre had the option to do, but he took it upon himself to openly disobey, rather than discuss. You have failed in justifying your illicit allegiance. I am Catholic first, where you are a Lefrebrevist (sp?) first. This is clear from how you identify yourself.

 

[d97c]

Excellent site on the death penalty

www.prodeathpenalty.com

 

[iluvburpees]

But did not disobey. Which LeFebvre had the option to do, but he took it upon himself to openly disobey, rather than discuss. You have failed in justifying your illicit allegiance. I am Catholic first, where you are a Lefrebrevist (sp?) first. This is clear from how you identify yourself.

By terming me a “lefebvrist,” you seem to hesitate to call me a Catholic. I’m not Catholic because I hold to the teachings of the Church? Show me one Catholic doctrine which the SSPX denies.

 

[fish90]

By terming me a “lefebvrist,” you seem to hesitate to call me a Catholic. I’m not Catholic because I hold to the teachings of the Church? Show me one Catholic doctrine which the SSPX denies.

Respectfully, is not the doctrine of “no Salvation Outside the Church” one that the SSPX denies along with many of the new provisions from Vatican II and do they not find Popes Benedict XVI and Pope John Paul the Great to be valid?

I mean to write this in the most respectful way.

MERRY CHRISTMAS!!!

 

[iluvburpees]

Respectfully, is not the doctrine of “no Salvation Outside the Church” one that the SSPX denies?

MERRY CHRISTMAS!!!

No, the SSPX does not deny this, and that is why they pray very often for unfortunate Novus Ordo Catholics.

 

[CWBetts]

By terming me a “lefebvrist,” you seem to hesitate to call me a Catholic. I’m not Catholic because I hold to the teachings of the Church? Show me one Catholic doctrine which the SSPX denies.

You mean besides submission to the Holy Father and refusal to accept the legitimacy of the Ordinary Form?

 

[iluvburpees]

You mean besides submission to the Holy Father and refusal to accept the legitimacy of the Ordinary Form?

Just a refusal to deny God and obey man when he is wrong.

At your judgment, God won’t listen to excuses. I will be very happy to say that I rejected error when few would.

 

[CWBetts]

Just a refusal to deny God and obey man when he is wrong.

At your judgment, God won’t listen to excuses. I will be very happy to say that I rejected error when few would.

You choose to follow a man who rejected the leadership of the man God put over him. Tell yourself whatever lies you want if it helps you sleep at night.

 

[iluvburpees]

You choose to follow a man who rejected the leadership of the man God put over him. Tell yourself whatever lies you want if it helps you sleep at night.

People who attack Archbishop Lefebvre should be ashamed of their actions.

“He disobeyed the pope! He’s a schismatic!”

Gimme a break. He was just doing his job. Doing his job when no one else was morally courageous enough to do it.

WHEN Archbishop Lefebvre is eventually canonized, it won’t be just because of his opposition to liberalism or because he saved the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. It will be because he simply did his job.

 

[CWBetts]

People who attack Archbishop Lefebvre should be ashamed of their actions.

“He disobeyed the pope! He’s a schismatic!”

Gimme a break. He was just doing his job. Doing his job when no one else was morally courageous enough to do it.

WHEN Archbishop Lefebvre is eventually canonized, it won’t be just because of his opposition to liberalism or because he saved the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. It will be because he simply did his job.

You mean IF and that is a big IF. I’ll look for him to be canonized about the same time as Luther.

 

[iluvburpees]

I’ll look for him to be canonized about the same time as Luther.

More hatred for the holy Archbishop and the Mass he saved. It disturbs me that people can think this way.

He was just doing his job when no one else would. Without him, I, and many other Catholics faithful to Tradition, would not have our Catholic Faith.

Perhaps you should be reminded of what St. Athanasius said:

“Even if Catholics, faithful to Tradition, are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ.”

And perhaps you and the Novus Ordo should respect the pope, as we do, by taking seriously Vatican Council I’s infallible pronouncement:

“If anyone rejects any written or unwritten Tradition of the Church, let him be anathema.”

Faithful Catholics have been tormented enough by those who think they’re Catholic. Give us a break and work on your own souls.

 

[aspawloski4th]

People who attack Archbishop Lefebvre should be ashamed of their actions.

“He disobeyed the pope! He’s a schismatic!”

He ordained his own bishops which is against Cannon law, thus excommunicating himself. All the stuff he does with the Mass is good and fine and legal, even Fr Gruner does that. But An archbishop can not ordain bishops, that power is reserved for the Pope.

 

[CWBetts]

More hatred for the holy Archbishop and the Mass he saved. It disturbs me that people can think this way.

He was just doing his job when no one else would. Without him, I, and many other Catholics faithful to Tradition, would not have our Catholic Faith.

Perhaps you should be reminded of what St. Athanasius said:

“Even if Catholics, faithful to Tradition, are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ.”

And perhaps you and the Novus Ordo should respect the pope, as we do, by taking seriously Vatican Council I’s infallible pronouncement:

“If anyone rejects any written or unwritten Tradition of the Church, let him be anathema.”

Faithful Catholics have been tormented enough by those who think they’re Catholic. Give us a break and work on your own souls.

Of course! I get it! The SSPX are real Catholics, and everyone else are heretics!!! Such hubris.

 

[fish90]

This is probably time for a new thread.

The issue with the SSPX is that the greatest reformers of the Church have been those that did it from the inside rather than the outside. They are correct to say that the post Vatican II Church is in trouble, however the answer to this problem is not rejecting the Pope.

I still have trouble understanding the philosophy of the SSPX. To find that the Church is in error is against the infallibility given to the Pope. For the Church to ever teach error about faith and morals should not be of any concern to a Catholic. Simply, the Church cannot teach error and to assume the Church did in Vatican II is very dangerous.

If I remember correctly, a quote posted on this website says something to the effect of “if one bishop rejects the Pope, then the entire episcopate threatens to fail.”

I do hope the SSPX comes into full Communion with the Church one day; it is stupid to think otherwise.

At least, I found another person who reaffirmed that the Church has always allowed the state to determine the death penalty.

Respectfully,
fish90

 

[CWBetts]

The nut of the issue is this: The Church has not stated one way or the other definitively on the status of the death penalty. Before he was Pope, Cardinal Ratzinger said that Catholics could have differing opinions on the issue. Truth be told, if His Holiness would issue a statement that the death penalty must be allowed as it is the only just punishment for premeditated murder and acts of terror, then by golly, I would change my position immediately. On the other hand, if the Pope issued a statement and said that the death penalty is contrary to the dignity of the human person, I would suspect the majority of supporters would also change their position. As it stands, the disagreement comes not on the status of human diginity, but rather ion how that dignity is best defended. Any thoughts?

 

[diggerdomer]

From the Catechism (2266):* “the primary scope of the penalty is to redress the disorder caused by the offense.”*

“Redressing the disorder” means retribution … justice.

that’s certainly one way to read “redressing the disorder” – but I think it could also be read in terms of mercy as well as justice. God is both merciful and just. There are many “disorders” involved in sinful offenses, one of which is the sinner who needs reconciliation, and rehabilitation.

I don’t see where the CCC says that redressing the disorder is retribution.

 

[diggerdomer]

Tell that to St. Paul who sternly rebuked St. Peter…

That is irrelevant.

 

[diggerdomer]

“He disobeyed the pope! He’s a schismatic!”

Gimme a break. He was just doing his job. Doing his job when no one else was morally courageous enough to do it.

That’s a good defense for Luther and other reformers/protestants as well. Good point.

 

[Ender]

I don’t see where the CCC says that redressing the disorder is retribution.

That was why I included the quote from Cardinal Dulles who laid out the four objectives of punishment: protection, deterrence, rehabilitation, and … retribution. Nor do I argue that we shouldn’t be merciful when it is appropriate but I would argue that it is not appropriate in every case.

Ender