When people think of birth control as "protection" - reframing the paradigm

[holyrood]

Out of curiosity and my bad memory, does the bible say anything about pregnancy prevention, or just the Church? obviously understanding they didn’t have the same methods as we do now.

The Bible was given to us by the Catholic church. We certainly believe in the Bible, but we have never taken our teachings ONLY from the Bible, since it didn’t even exist for the first 300 years or so of the Catholic faith.

 

[gardenswithkids]

When we were getting the answers to our questions about birth control and all of the reasons why its so “evil” many people and priests said just what you said. It was about having more faith in God and trusting him with our fertility. Which led to the question “what if we need to postpone future children?” Thats when NFP was introduced. Before trying NFP people shouted at us “NFP IS JUST AS EFFECTIVE AS BIRTH CONTROL IF NOT MORE!!!” I’m sorry but if we were to give our fertility COMPLETELY and UNRESERVEDLY to God, we would just have sex whenever we pleased regardless of what phase the woman is in during her cycle.

Since my wife is a physician we found NFP to be very effective for a few years and we used it to perfectly plan our second child. The only difference between that and the birth control we were using before was the convenience levels between the two. She found it tedious with all the charts, but basically once she was done with her personal challenge of getting NFP to work for her we switched back to birth control we really don’t see the church’s view about its so called immorality. There are lots of things that are manmade and unnatural, why the big focus on what people use in the bedroom?

A lot of people don’t know exactly how to explain physics either, but that doesn’t mean the laws of physics aren’t true.

This is something I suggest you to take to prayer. Don’t expect other people to know exactly how to explain it to you.

But I’ll try by sharing a little of my story. I’m a former contraceptive user who found this teaching most difficult upon my return to the Catholic Church. Instead of relying on other peoples’ attempts to explain these teachings, I looked them up in the Catechism. Since I was returning to the Church after years of going to a Protestant Church, I checked out all the Catechism’s Biblical references surrounding these teachings (with the idea that while I wasn’t sure that the Catechism was right, I did trust the Bible.) What I found was the Bible repeatedly refers to children as blessings, over and over and over. Finally I got it. God sees children and fertility as blessings. That’s the biblical view of fertility and children.

I found that NFP confused the matter for me. Eventually I stumbled onto the paragraph in the Catechism, 2368. I’ll leave you to look up on your own, but it doesn’t give carte blanche use of NFP for pregnancy prevention. That was the kicker that helped push me over the edge in accepting the Church teachings.

Why the focus on what people do in the bedroom, you ask? Because that’s how God creates people. God entrusts us with our fertility and sexuality, giving us the power to create (in co-operation with Him) the next generation. God sees fertility and children as blessings, and so… the Church teaches us that children and fertility are blessings.

 

[7armyrugrats]

It is not popular to say here or in most NFP circles, but you can abuse NFP and make it no different than if you were using contraception. I have met many couples that do this. They will tell you that children are a blessing, but we don’t want to many blessings. They will say that each and every child must be planned and if one comes at a time other than when they were planning, they become heartbroken and bitter. We need to be honest enough to see that often times NFP is used as catholic birth control. When viewed like that I don’t see how it is any different than using any other form of birth control. That is where the confusion comes for many.

I gave up charting years ago. It is much better for my family to leave it completely in God’s hands. It used to be that it was just assumed that God would or wouldn’t send children, and it all was perfectly fine either way. It wasn’t a catholic thing, or even a Christian thing. It was an across the board married thing. And do you know what’s funny? Most couples didn’t have a boat load of kids! 4 or maybe 6 and that was all. That’s why the large families were so honored. God blessed them abundantly. My grandmother had 12 and was viewed as a blessed woman by my other grandmother who only had 4. My husband’s parents only had 2 kids and it was not from lack of trying for many many many more! One of my mom’s sisters had 8 kids in 7 years–all single births. She spend the next 15 years trying to have another baby that never came. I have 8, but I have two five year gaps between kids and not from trying to avoid. We tried for three years after #7 before we gave up. Two years after giving up our sweetie surprised us. Most ladies do not get pregnant easily. And many men are not able to produce enough viable sperm to produce multiple children. Some people conceive easily and quickly at first, but then never are able to again. I’ve met many people like this, not just my aunt. Several only have one or two kids, and often these couple desire many more.

I know there are many legitimate reasons to avoid pregnancy. NFP is there for those families. As a Church, we need to talk more about reasons that warrant NFP to avoid instead of allowing it’s use for whatever reason a couple feels is important. That will cut down on the catholic birth control mentality and probably make the differences between NFP and contraception easier to spot.

 

[HoneyBea]

It is not popular to say here or in most NFP circles, but you can abuse NFP and make it no different than if you were using contraception. I have met many couples that do this. They will tell you that children are a blessing, but we don’t want to many blessings. They will say that each and every child must be planned and if one comes at a time other than when they were planning, they become heartbroken and bitter. We need to be honest enough to see that often times NFP is used as catholic birth control. When viewed like that I don’t see how it is any different than using any other form of birth control. That is where the confusion comes for many.

I gave up charting years ago. It is much better for my family to leave it completely in God’s hands. It used to be that it was just assumed that God would or wouldn’t send children, and it all was perfectly fine either way. It wasn’t a catholic thing, or even a Christian thing. It was an across the board married thing. And do you know what’s funny? Most couples didn’t have a boat load of kids! 4 or maybe 6 and that was all. That’s why the large families were so honored. God blessed them abundantly. My grandmother had 12 and was viewed as a blessed woman by my other grandmother who only had 4. My husband’s parents only had 2 kids and it was not from lack of trying for many many many more! One of my mom’s sisters had 8 kids in 7 years–all single births. She spend the next 15 years trying to have another baby that never came. I have 8, but I have two five year gaps between kids and not from trying to avoid. We tried for three years after #7 before we gave up. Two years after giving up our sweetie surprised us. Most ladies do not get pregnant easily. And many men are not able to produce enough viable sperm to produce multiple children. Some people conceive easily and quickly at first, but then never are able to again. I’ve met many people like this, not just my aunt. Several only have one or two kids, and often these couple desire many more.

I know there are many legitimate reasons to avoid pregnancy. NFP is there for those families. As a Church, we need to talk more about reasons that warrant NFP to avoid instead of allowing it’s use for whatever reason a couple feels is important. That will cut down on the catholic birth control mentality and probably make the differences between NFP and contraception easier to spot.

What she said.

:clapping:

 

[OurLadyPray4US]

Because wanting to be intimate with the woman I love, and chose to be with for the rest of my life is a perverted, blasphemous, and fake thing to do if we decide to skip making a baby? Again I’m really not seeing the difference in “withholding one’s self” when we intentionally avoid a woman’s fertile times and contraception. What’s being withheld? Obviously the woman’s fertility.

David, sorry for having offended you, I did not intend my post as some mean-spirited put-down of you or anyone else.

I really meant my post as a concise summary of what I managed to learn about this issue over the years.

One important point is that marriage itself is a sacred thing, it’s a sacrament. And although the marital act is a specific sort of physical action, the marital act is also a sacred action, it is an act that points to a spiritual reality, a spiritual mystery beyond the physical world. As such, the “how-to” of the marital act has been precisely prescribed by God, just like the “how-to” of other sacraments (e.g., baptism, unction of the sick, Eucharist) has been precisely prescribed.

One must use water for baptism, we are not free to baptize with milk or orange juice. Baptism washes away our sins, and we must use water to convey this message. Using the physical element of water, which washes and purifies, we are pointing to the spiritual reality taking place in the non-material world, i.e. the cleansing of the spiritual, non-material soul. Using milk, orange juice, etc is forbidden, because it would not serve the message of pointing to the spiritual effect of baptism. When we want to cleanse our body, we use water. We do not use milk, or orange juice.

With the unction of the sick, we use oil. The unction of the sick is a healing sacrament, it heals the soul, and it often cures sickness. Oil in the physical world is used to bandage and heal wounds. We can’t use something else instead of oil.

You see, when it comes to sacraments and sacred actions, we must follow God’s “how-to” guides. Trying to perform a baptism with orange juice would pervert the action, and blaspheme the sacrament. The definition of blasphemy, per the Catholic Encyclopedia, is: “Blasphemy (Greek blaptein, “to injure”, and pheme, “reputation”) signifies etymologically gross irreverence towards any person or thing worthy of exalted esteem.” Also, trying to use battery acid for the unction of the sick, instead of oil, would pervert the sacrament and be an act of blasphemy.

My understanding is that God willed the marital act to be open to creating a new human being, and we are not free to change the parameters of the marital act. The physical act of copulation between husband and wife is fruitful (the fruit is the child, the new human being), and it signifies spiritual realities such as the fruitful love between Christ and his Church, and the fruitful love between the Heavenly Father and the Son.

Just as we are not free to perform baptism with orange juice, or the unction of the sick with battery acid (sulfuric acid), we are not free to invent “variants” of the marital act.

Forbidden “variants” of the marital act would include:

-copulation between husband and wife, while putting a barrier (condom, IUD, contraceptive pill) to the conception of children
-copulation between boyfriend and girlfriend, who are not married to each other
-copulation between two men (gay couple) or two women (lesbian couple)

These “variants” would qualify as a perversion of the sacred activity which is the marital act, and they could be regarded as blaspheming the marital act - see again the definition: “Blasphemy (Greek blaptein, “to injure”, and pheme, “reputation”) signifies etymologically gross irreverence towards any person or thing worthy of exalted esteem.”

One could rightfully argue that the secular society’s widespread acceptance of contraceptive sex, pre-marital sex, and gay/lesbian sexual activity did injure the reputation of the real thing (the sacred marital act), and it is an act of gross irreverence towards the sacred marital act, which is worthy of exalted esteem.

I do not mean to whack you, or anyone else, over the head with the heavy accusations of perverting and blaspheming sacred things. People may have little personal culpability due to ignorance. But at the same time, contraceptive sex, premarital sex, and gay/lesbian sex are objectively perverted variants of the real thing (the sacred marital act), and they have objectively contributed to injuring the reputation of marriage and the sacred marital act. Young people have lost their moral compasses precisely because they grew up in a society that injured the reputation of sacramental marriage and the sacred marital act, through the widespread acceptance and practice of sexual immorality (shacking up, premarital sex, extramarital sex, contraception, gay/lesbian sex).

According to my understanding, one will do well to perform the sacred marital act exactly as God intended it, or not to perform it at all. It is not a sin (in fact, it is a meritorious activity) to engage in the sacred marital act. It is also not a sin to practice abstinence, with the mutual agreement of the spouses. Those are the two morally permissible alternatives. Contraceptive sex, on the other hand, is objectively sinful. If it’s done with full understanding and full intent to disobey God, contraceptive sex does qualify as a mortal sin, as a perverted and blasphemous activity.

 

[holyrood]

It is not popular to say here or in most NFP circles, but you can abuse NFP and make it no different than if you were using contraception. I have met many couples that do this. They will tell you that children are a blessing, but we don’t want to many blessings. They will say that each and every child must be planned and if one comes at a time other than when they were planning, they become heartbroken and bitter. We need to be honest enough to see that often times NFP is used as catholic birth control. When viewed like that I don’t see how it is any different than using any other form of birth control. That is where the confusion comes for many.

I gave up charting years ago. It is much better for my family to leave it completely in God’s hands. It used to be that it was just assumed that God would or wouldn’t send children, and it all was perfectly fine either way. It wasn’t a catholic thing, or even a Christian thing. It was an across the board married thing. And do you know what’s funny? Most couples didn’t have a boat load of kids! 4 or maybe 6 and that was all. That’s why the large families were so honored. God blessed them abundantly. My grandmother had 12 and was viewed as a blessed woman by my other grandmother who only had 4. My husband’s parents only had 2 kids and it was not from lack of trying for many many many more! One of my mom’s sisters had 8 kids in 7 years–all single births. She spend the next 15 years trying to have another baby that never came. I have 8, but I have two five year gaps between kids and not from trying to avoid. We tried for three years after #7 before we gave up. Two years after giving up our sweetie surprised us. Most ladies do not get pregnant easily. And many men are not able to produce enough viable sperm to produce multiple children. Some people conceive easily and quickly at first, but then never are able to again. I’ve met many people like this, not just my aunt. Several only have one or two kids, and often these couple desire many more.

I know there are many legitimate reasons to avoid pregnancy. NFP is there for those families. As a Church, we need to talk more about reasons that warrant NFP to avoid instead of allowing it’s use for whatever reason a couple feels is important. That will cut down on the catholic birth control mentality and probably make the differences between NFP and contraception easier to spot.

Agreed on all points. Beautifully said. And you’re exactly right, it makes no sense to say we believe children are blessings…but darn, please don’t bless me!

 

[Rico_S]

As a Church, we need to talk more about reasons that warrant NFP to avoid instead of allowing it’s use for whatever reason a couple feels is important. That will cut down on the catholic birth control mentality and probably make the differences between NFP and contraception easier to spot.

The Church has been wise not to do so. Every couple is different with different resources, talents, limits and goals. Trying to dictate family size would be a disaster for the church. I have 4 kids–wife is 42. We are ok financially, but send our kids to catholics schools. It would be a strain on us (not impossible) to put a 5th through catholic education and plan for retirement and still be able to live a comfortable, but relatively modest lifestyle–not to mention we are just really tired at this point. So we are trying to avoid now. So are we sinning? Should the Church stand up and tell us that we have the resources and shouldn’t be so selfish?

They will tell you that children are a blessing, but we don’t want to many blessings.

Really? So b/c someone decides that they shouldn’t have more children they necessarily don’t see them as blessings?

 

[HoneyBea]

Rico,

It’s almost as if you didn’t read her entire posts and are only reading what you want to see. That happens. Be blessed.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

NFP is never equivalent to contraceptive usage.

Contraceptive use corrupts the marital act by closing that specific act from being open to conception.

When a couple uses NFP each individual act is open and not corrupt.

 

[Rico_S]

Rico,

It’s almost as if you didn’t read her entire posts and are only reading what you want to see. That happens. Be blessed.

I read the post, I just commented on what stuck out to me. Sometimes the trend/tone of these threads just seems off to me…and this thread seems to have turned that way. Being more definitive in its guidelines on when it is suitable to use NFP is not going to turn the tide toward the embracing of large families again.

I don’t disagree that our society could use a healthy dose of large families for a variety of reasons…but you aren’t going to get there by listing out more rules.

 

[Rico_S]

I really meant my post as a concise summary of what I managed to learn about this issue over the years.

One important point is that marriage itself is a sacred thing, it’s a sacrament. And although the marital act is a specific sort of physical action, the marital act is also a sacred action, it is an act that points to a spiritual reality, a spiritual mystery beyond the physical world. As such, the “how-to” of the marital act has been precisely prescribed by God, just like the “how-to” of other sacraments (e.g., baptism, unction of the sick, Eucharist) has been precisely prescribed.

One must use water for baptism, we are not free to baptize with milk or orange juice. Baptism washes away our sins, and we must use water to convey this message. Using the physical element of water, which washes and purifies, we are pointing to the spiritual reality taking place in the non-material world, i.e. the cleansing of the spiritual, non-material soul. Using milk, orange juice, etc is forbidden, because it would not serve the message of pointing to the spiritual effect of baptism. When we want to cleanse our body, we use water. We do not use milk, or orange juice.

With the unction of the sick, we use oil. The unction of the sick is a healing sacrament, it heals the soul, and it often cures sickness. Oil in the physical world is used to bandage and heal wounds. We can’t use something else instead of oil.

You see, when it comes to sacraments and sacred actions, we must follow God’s “how-to” guides. Trying to perform a baptism with orange juice would pervert the action, and blaspheme the sacrament. The definition of blasphemy, per the Catholic Encyclopedia, is: “Blasphemy (Greek blaptein, “to injure”, and pheme, “reputation”) signifies etymologically gross irreverence towards any person or thing worthy of exalted esteem.” Also, trying to use battery acid for the unction of the sick, instead of oil, would pervert the sacrament and be an act of blasphemy.

My understanding is that God willed the marital act to be open to creating a new human being, and we are not free to change the parameters of the marital act. The physical act of copulation between husband and wife is fruitful (the fruit is the child, the new human being), and it signifies spiritual realities such as the fruitful love between Christ and his Church, and the fruitful love between the Heavenly Father and the Son.

Just as we are not free to perform baptism with orange juice, or the unction of the sick with battery acid (sulfuric acid), we are not free to invent “variants” of the marital act.

Forbidden “variants” of the marital act would include:

-copulation between husband and wife, while putting a barrier (condom, IUD, contraceptive pill) to the conception of children
-copulation between boyfriend and girlfriend, who are not married to each other
-copulation between two men (gay couple) or two women (lesbian couple)

These “variants” would qualify as a perversion of the sacred activity which is the marital act, and they could be regarded as blaspheming the marital act - see again the definition: “Blasphemy (Greek blaptein, “to injure”, and pheme, “reputation”) signifies etymologically gross irreverence towards any person or thing worthy of exalted esteem.”

One could rightfully argue that the secular society’s widespread acceptance of contraceptive sex, pre-marital sex, and gay/lesbian sexual activity did injure the reputation of the real thing (the sacred marital act), and it is an act of gross irreverence towards the sacred marital act, which is worthy of exalted esteem.

I do not mean to whack you, or anyone else, over the head with the heavy accusations of perverting and blaspheming sacred things. People may have little personal culpability due to ignorance. But at the same time, contraceptive sex, premarital sex, and gay/lesbian sex are objectively perverted variants of the real thing (the sacred marital act), and they have objectively contributed to injuring the reputation of marriage and the sacred marital act. Young people have lost their moral compasses precisely because they grew up in a society that injured the reputation of sacramental marriage and the sacred marital act, through the widespread acceptance and practice of sexual immorality (shacking up, premarital sex, extramarital sex, contraception, gay/lesbian sex).

According to my understanding, one will do well to perform the sacred marital act exactly as God intended it, or not to perform it at all. It is not a sin (in fact, it is a meritorious activity) to engage in the sacred marital act. It is also not a sin to practice abstinence, with the mutual agreement of the spouses. Those are the two morally permissible alternatives. Contraceptive sex, on the other hand, is objectively sinful. If it’s done with full understanding and full intent to disobey God, contraceptive sex does qualify as a mortal sin, as a perverted and blasphemous activity.

I think this is a pretty good post, OLP4us! You have a good understanding of how things fit together and you explain things well.

I understand how the physical aspects of the sacrament are meaningful. Water for baptism, oil for unction of the sick.etc. But you go on to say that if we were to use orange juice for baptism it or battery acid for annointing the sick that would be blasphemy. I am clearly not nearly as well versed in this stuff as you, but are we certain that changing the physical components of these sacraments is necessarily evil? I mean inherently so?

Also, I understand that sex is a renewal/reflection of the marriage covenant and a sacred act, but it is not a sacrament like the others you mention. So do we go too far to hold a non sacrament, though sacred, act to the same level as a sacrament? Are there other sacred acts that have similar standards?

Anyway, just some thoughts as I was reading your post. Thanks.

 

[HoneyBea]

I read the post, I just commented on what stuck out to me. Sometimes the trend/tone of these threads just seems off to me…and this thread seems to have turned that way. Being more definitive in its guidelines on when it is suitable to use NFP is not going to turn the tide toward the embracing of large families again.

I don’t disagree that our society could use a healthy dose of large families for a variety of reasons…but you aren’t going to get there by listing out more rules.

True and I understand, but I didn’t interpret her post as suggesting we hand out more rules, but rather better explain the existing “rules”. In the end the church does leave it up to families to discern for themselves In cooperation with God, does it not? That was my understanding, but this is all new to me and I am still learning.

 

[HoneyBea]

Also, I understand that sex is a renewal/reflection of the marriage covenant and a sacred act, but it is not a sacrament like the others you mention. So do we go too far to hold a non sacrament, though sacred, act to the same level as a sacrament? Are there other sacred acts that have similar standards?

Good question! I don’t have the answer, but I hope somebody does lol, because I too would like to know.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

I think this is a pretty good post, OLP4us! You have a good understanding of how things fit together and you explain things well.

I understand how the physical aspects of the sacrament are meaningful. Water for baptism, oil for unction of the sick.etc. But you go on to say that if we were to use orange juice for baptism it or battery acid for annointing the sick that would be blasphemy. I am clearly not nearly as well versed in this stuff as you, but are we certain that changing the physical components of these sacraments is necessarily evil? I mean inherently so?

Also, I understand that sex is a renewal/reflection of the marriage covenant and a sacred act, but it is not a sacrament like the others you mention. So do we go too far to hold a non sacrament, though sacred, act to the same level as a sacrament? Are there other sacred acts that have similar standards?

Anyway, just some thoughts as I was reading your post. Thanks.

An example that I heard once (do not remember where ) gave the example of a chalice and a paten. Once they are consecrated, they cannot be used to contain any other thing. So one could not use the paten to put candies on, or drink orange juice out of a chalice.

I see it this way, God designed humans to procreate through a specific way. Because we are creatures made in the image and likeness of God, cooperating with God in making a new life is sacred. For this reason the act must never be corrupted (through contraception, through illicit sexual practices etc. etc)

NFP allows for a couple to cooperate with God. Contraception corrupts the act and breaks our cooperation with God.

I’ve seen confusion where people think NFP is a way to have sex without getting pregnant. It’s actually the opposite, for NFP to work to avoid, the couple avoids sex. The contracepting couple, on the other hand have rendered the act sterile.

 

[7armyrugrats]

I read the post, I just commented on what stuck out to me. Sometimes the trend/tone of these threads just seems off to me…and this thread seems to have turned that way. Being more definitive in its guidelines on when it is suitable to use NFP is not going to turn the tide toward the embracing of large families again.

I don’t disagree that our society could use a healthy dose of large families for a variety of reasons…but you aren’t going to get there by listing out more rules.

I don’t think I worded my post well then and I am sorry. I do not think that we need MORE rules, just that we need to embrace what we already believe, or should believe. As Catholics we are failing in showing people that being open to God’s will in our lives is a beautiful and peaceful way to live. It does no one any good to have as many babies as possible if we do not love, care, accept, and provide properly for them. A stressed out mom with six kids is usually not a beautiful witness to the pro life movement, but a happy mom of one kid can be. Its not about big versus small families, but the attitudes of the people involved. Closing our hearts to any of God’s blessings is not a way to live. It seems strange to me that so many people want as much grace as they can get from God…money, fame, job and education opportunities, and more simple things like happiness, clothes, shelter and food…but only a limited amount of His supreme gifts–creation. This isn’t limited to children, but also other things in nature. People are more tied to computers, tv, cars, cell phones, air conditioned buildings and vehicles than they are to the true necessities of life. When we lose power due to storms or other natural disasters, the countdown clock begins to see how long it takes for the lights to come back on and we can go back to our regular indoor lives. Millions of people around the world have never had electricity, and millions more only have it sometimes. But those people are amazingly happy and joyful MOST of the time. In the western world we view creation on the travel channel or google earth, we see pictures and read magazines, go to museums and zoos. But how often do we walk through the world that God created and echoed His words, “It is good,” or thanked Him for the sun to rule the day and the moon to rule the night, or marveled at the beauty of the mountains, or became amazed at the abundance of food available in the ocean and forests? We are so blessed to live in a country that is not war torn, where we have a nearly unlimited amount of food (so much that even the truly poor do not ever know real hunger), and as a people we can do nearly anything we so desire. But how thankful are we? I hear more people complain of depression than shout for joy.

I had a neighbor from Nigeria who was so amazed at the amount of ladies in the US that get post partum depression. She said that ladies in her village never experienced this. She honestly believed that people here have it too easy in life and that triggers our depressions. My husband thinks the same thing. The town he grew up in only recently got electricity (sometimes) and still has no running water or sewer system. This is a tiny village in Veracruz, Mexico, population less than 400 people.The ladies do not use contraception and have no clue about NFP, but still their families are 2-6 kids on average. Well over thirty women are infertile. One mom has 13 kids, three have 9, one has 8, and six have 7. These moms are viewed as supremely blessed and other moms wish they could have been as blessed as they are. My own mother in law only had 2 children but prayed for many more. Maybe God has a bigger hand in procreation than we prefer to believe.

 

[holyrood]

The ladies do not use contraception and have no clue about NFP, but still their families are 2-6 kids on average. Well over thirty women are infertile. One mom has 13 kids, three have 9, one has 8, and six have 7. These moms are viewed as supremely blessed and other moms wish they could have been as blessed as they are. My own mother in law only had 2 children but prayed for many more. Maybe God has a bigger hand in procreation than we prefer to believe.

Your entire post was beautiful and insightful. Several in this thread have mentioned this same theme: that not using birth control does not automatically result in huge families. I attended a very conservative church for a decade, in which I’m guessing most families didn’t use birth control. There were a few of us with more than 6–I think maybe four families off the top of my head, in a fairly large church. There were probably half a dozen families or so with 6 kids. And a whole bunch of families with 4 or fewer. I had several friends who just never got pregnant, and wished they would.

I have always felt blessed with my large family, but reading the posts here are a reminder that it *is * a blessing, not just a random, natural, or guaranteed result of my choices. Thank you for the reminder that God is really a part of all of this.

 

[David011]

On a thread I posted some months ago I dealt with the very thing you point out - forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=777538 Instructors of NFP in Catholic premarital counseling shouldn’t be comparing it to birth control in the same way; it isn’t about controlling fertility as much as about responding to the fertility that’s already there in the way God made us. I can see how it could seem like a fine line but I’m not sure why you are so worked up about it, especially considering the rest of your post . . .

Sorry, didn’t mean to sound worked up! This was just what was always said when people were first trying to “sell” NFP to us which did work.

I suggest that you study and talk to some couples for whom NFP has not only made it easier to work together as a couple around the wife’s fertile cycles, but also in the communication between the spouses, strengthened the marriage. A lot of things in life are convenient but if the Church teaches that something is immoral we must avoid that thing - even if it’s inconvenient, or we don’t totally understand at the moment, or even if we disagree with it.

It’s good that you have had experience using NFP - why not step out in faith and give it another shot?

See that’s the thing right there. We’re not seeing the so called immorality. People say we’re co-creators of new human beings with God and I perfectly agree with that. Which is why I think God is just as involved when an NFP sign is misinterpreted or someone forgets to take their pill. We were born and raised Catholic but wouldn’t really call ourselves that just yet, which is why we currently have no problem not following the “no contraception” rule.

Because the capability of spouses to cooperate with God in the bringing of another soul into the world is a big deal, not the location where that takes place, e.g. bedroom. Yes, many things we do as human beings are “manmade and unnatural” if you want to use that argument. Each case must be decided on its moral points which differ depending on what the action is, where it intersects with Catholic moral teaching, and several other factors.

For instance, your wife is a doctor - well, the argument could be made that medical care is manmade and that it’s unnatural for a doctor to use medicines or procedures to cure human illness if you want to carry it that far. But what’s the context of Church teaching that the question fits into? Answer: Mercy. It’s a corporal work of mercy to assist the sick rather than just doing nothing and allowing them to die.

What does caring for the sick have to do with contraception?

It’s about studying the Church’s moral teachings in context and being willing to let them permeate your mind, heart, and will. And to understand deep down how they apply to any given issue including NFP vs. contraception. That’s something no one else can do for you; only you must decide whether the eternal risk of not obeying the Church is a gamble you’re willing to take - and on a more positive note, whether there might be rewards you can’t fathom until you take that leap of faith.

Thank you very much for your explanations. Right now just looking into Catholicism so there’s no “leap of faith” we’re going to make right away because we’re still trying to understand the reasoning and logic behind all the rules that seem redundant right now. We’re not the type to just blindly follow whatever someone says is the “Truth”. We’re honestly not looking to justify our actions, we’re simply just trying to make sense of these rules before (and if) we decide they’re worth following. And you are very right, this is something no one else can do for us, it’s up to us to decide this for ourselves. Thank you!

 

[shelby_sun]

Good for you. Some people seem to think we all face the same issues in life or that they can understand ever possible situation, which is arrogant if you ask me, especially from a priest.

Let say we are trying to “prevent” severe depression, alcoholism, adultery, divorce; would those be things worth prevent? My mother had me eight years after her “last” child was born. Soon after I was born she starting drinking more and quickly became an alcoholic. She did not get sober until I was seven and I cannot even beginning to tell you the damage that was done to my family in that time frame. My parents divorced and I was always an outcast in my family because everyone associated me with causing that pain. I cannot not tell you how many stories I have heard from her friends in AA that said that following the Church’s teaching on this issue lead to so many more problems and suffering then was need. How it hurt their children.

Having children of my own and being through so much counseling to get through my life, I know women know their limits and what they can handle and NO priest should tell them how to take care of themselves or their family in a healthy, safe way. It is those women that have enough faith in God to do what they need to do for their family and know He will love them and understand. This is where Pope Francis is talking about looking into our own soul and with the help of God doing what is needed.

 

[holyrood]

Let say we are trying to “prevent” severe depression, alcoholism, adultery, divorce; would those be things worth prevent? My mother had me eight years after her “last” child was born. Soon after I was born she starting drinking more and quickly became an alcoholic. She did not get sober until I was seven and I cannot even beginning to tell you the damage that was done to my family in that time frame. My parents divorced and I was always an outcast in my family because everyone associated me with causing that pain. I cannot not tell you how many stories I have heard from her friends in AA that said that following the Church’s teaching on this issue lead to so many more problems and suffering then was need. How it hurt their children.

Are you saying that you feel your birth caused all these problems in your family? That you never should have been born?

 

[3DOCTORS]

Good for you. Some people seem to think we all face the same issues in life or that they can understand ever possible situation, which is arrogant if you ask me, especially from a priest.

Let say we are trying to “prevent” severe depression, alcoholism, adultery, divorce; would those be things worth prevent? My mother had me eight years after her “last” child was born. Soon after I was born she starting drinking more and quickly became an alcoholic. She did not get sober until I was seven and I cannot even beginning to tell you the damage that was done to my family in that time frame. My parents divorced and I was always an outcast in my family because everyone associated me with causing that pain. I cannot not tell you how many stories I have heard from her friends in AA that said that following the Church’s teaching on this issue lead to so many more problems and suffering then was need. How it hurt their children.

Having children of my own and being through so much counseling to get through my life, I know women know their limits and what they can handle and NO priest should tell them how to take care of themselves or their family in a healthy, safe way. It is those women that have enough faith in God to do what they need to do for their family and know He will love them and understand. This is where Pope Francis is talking about looking into our own soul and with the help of God doing what is needed.

I’m very sorry that your and your family’s life has been so full of suffering. And I know that there are lots of people in the world who blame having a large family for causing suffering - but I just can’t help but think there must have been underlying problems that were the real cause of the difficulties. If, for instance, a husband is being demanding of sex with no care for how his wife is feeling and being insensitive and unhelpful if pregnancy results, that is an indicator of a deep rift in the marriage. There is still at times some cultural misogynism baggage in some cases that encourages insensitivity.

Please accept my prayers for your family and all families for whom having an abundance of children has been a challenge and yes, perhaps more bitter than sweet. I know that we can’t gloss over and pretend those situations don’t exist. The objective moral issues surrounding contraception remain what they are, but sometimes a woman is so frightened and stressed that maybe her guilt is lessened, and God would have mercy on her.

We must be careful not to put words in the Pope’s mouth, though - the press does quite well with that, unfortunately. Just a reminder, not trying to be harsh about it. And again I will definitely pray for continued healing for your family in all ways.