F
FireFromHeaven
Guest
Why would God create a being he knew would become evil and who would lead many people into eternal misery? Why if he is omnibenevolent?
- Status
A
AlanFromWichita
Guest
I think God likes to play hide-and-seek. Look at the day/night cycles. Things come alive in spring and drop dead in fall.
Like playing “he loves me, he loves me not” if it’s going to have any meaning there has to be a chance he doesn’t love me. So that’s like hide-and-seek. He had to give us free will because He wanted to see what happens if a human is given a choice to love back or not.
The Word is full or stories about separations, and returns. Lost, and found. Asleep and now awake, dead and now alive. There can’t be a welcome home reunion without first a separation. Nor is there a need for healing and forgiveness, if there is no hurting and sin. What would saints do without any broken people to minister to?
For all this reason, frankly my ego is happy that Adam chose the way he did. Because now where there is evil all over the world and a loving Savior teachings us how to work on fixing it, it gives me a reason to exist. It gives me a reason to love God, over and above all the things of the earth that I loved before I finally became confirmed in my own experience of unity with the Lord.
The problem God had, and it made it a boring day in the life of bliss in the garden IMO, is too much celebrity. Like a famous person in the world, people will naturally flock to. Many of them will be looking for favors, because famous people in the world have power. Well, God has a lot of power too, so if somebody comes up to Him and says, “I love you,” how does the poor creature even know what love is, if that love hasn’t been tested? The rich and famous have a hard time judging whether anyone they meet really cares about them, or is influenced by the person’s power. Like I remember Rich Mullins talking about that as one of the reasons he preferred to hang around his old friends who knew him before he got famous. How does he know if the people he met later have any concern for him as a person, at all? That’s why it is so comical that God chose to introduce Love Incarnate in the package of a lowly, humble baby in a manger. Who’d have thought that would be how God chose to enter into this world, after letting Satan mix it up for a few years?
Honestly I think the Lord allowed Satan to test all of us, so that our love may be purified and strengthened. Love that is tested and found true. Not just following God like so many lemmings. Problem with Adam’s mess, was that the lemmings lost their orientation toward God so they didn’t have anybody to follow until the second Adam, aka Jesus. Jesus said He came to divide, well the lemmings were following any worldly promise that caught their eye, so when Jesus started calling them, the ones who heard His voice were “divided” out of the pack of the rest and went with Him. The ones who heard His voice were the meek ones whose own (worldly) wills were quiet enough their heart could hear that calling. So basically He is “distilling” the population by calling those who wish a pure heart to go His direction. So sin, like yeast, got mixed through the dough. Now we are baking the loaves of bread in the oven of humility, purgation, and other activities that kill the yeast, the yeast having first been instrumental in shaping and giving character to the bread. Meanwhile the rest of the population continues to run wild and multiply (that’s one thing Adam knew how to obey) and every now and then one is called out to go into the furnace of love.
Saint John of the Cross describes such a soul going through purification, according to the Stanzas of the Soul:
So after Adam’s sin spread throughout creation and thoroughly put the world to death, Jesus came and showed us all how we can be harvesters, harvesting pieces of the mysterious puzzles of the kingdom and putting them into place. Then he declared the harvest is ready. So the games are on, and we are all players, if we so choose – we walk with Jesus and bring our dough into the crucible. So Jesus called us all out of the pack, and then showed us how to become united again. So basically Adam shattered the knowledge of God and divided it dualistically (diabolically) into tiny pieces. Jesus showed us how to call to the pieces so that the ones who hear His voice through our actions and prayers will motivate toward His Father.
Honestly I can’t imagine a world without human drama. What would we do, just sit around and look pretty like roses?
Alan
Like playing “he loves me, he loves me not” if it’s going to have any meaning there has to be a chance he doesn’t love me. So that’s like hide-and-seek. He had to give us free will because He wanted to see what happens if a human is given a choice to love back or not.
The Word is full or stories about separations, and returns. Lost, and found. Asleep and now awake, dead and now alive. There can’t be a welcome home reunion without first a separation. Nor is there a need for healing and forgiveness, if there is no hurting and sin. What would saints do without any broken people to minister to?
For all this reason, frankly my ego is happy that Adam chose the way he did. Because now where there is evil all over the world and a loving Savior teachings us how to work on fixing it, it gives me a reason to exist. It gives me a reason to love God, over and above all the things of the earth that I loved before I finally became confirmed in my own experience of unity with the Lord.
The problem God had, and it made it a boring day in the life of bliss in the garden IMO, is too much celebrity. Like a famous person in the world, people will naturally flock to. Many of them will be looking for favors, because famous people in the world have power. Well, God has a lot of power too, so if somebody comes up to Him and says, “I love you,” how does the poor creature even know what love is, if that love hasn’t been tested? The rich and famous have a hard time judging whether anyone they meet really cares about them, or is influenced by the person’s power. Like I remember Rich Mullins talking about that as one of the reasons he preferred to hang around his old friends who knew him before he got famous. How does he know if the people he met later have any concern for him as a person, at all? That’s why it is so comical that God chose to introduce Love Incarnate in the package of a lowly, humble baby in a manger. Who’d have thought that would be how God chose to enter into this world, after letting Satan mix it up for a few years?
Honestly I think the Lord allowed Satan to test all of us, so that our love may be purified and strengthened. Love that is tested and found true. Not just following God like so many lemmings. Problem with Adam’s mess, was that the lemmings lost their orientation toward God so they didn’t have anybody to follow until the second Adam, aka Jesus. Jesus said He came to divide, well the lemmings were following any worldly promise that caught their eye, so when Jesus started calling them, the ones who heard His voice were “divided” out of the pack of the rest and went with Him. The ones who heard His voice were the meek ones whose own (worldly) wills were quiet enough their heart could hear that calling. So basically He is “distilling” the population by calling those who wish a pure heart to go His direction. So sin, like yeast, got mixed through the dough. Now we are baking the loaves of bread in the oven of humility, purgation, and other activities that kill the yeast, the yeast having first been instrumental in shaping and giving character to the bread. Meanwhile the rest of the population continues to run wild and multiply (that’s one thing Adam knew how to obey) and every now and then one is called out to go into the furnace of love.
Saint John of the Cross describes such a soul going through purification, according to the Stanzas of the Soul:
Code:
1. One dark night,
fired with love's urgent longings
-- ah, the sheer grace! --
I went out unseen,
my house being now all stilled.
2. In darkness, and secure,
by the secret ladder, disguised,
-- ah, the sheer grace! --
in darkness and concealment,
my house being now all stilled.
3. On that glad night,
in secret, for no one saw me,
nor did I look at anything,
with no other light or guide
than the one that burned in my heart.
4. This guided me
more surely than the light of noon
to where he was awaiting me
-- him I knew so well --
there in a place where no one appeared.
5. O guiding night!
O night more lovely than the dawn!
O night that has united
the Lover with his beloved,
transforming the beloved in her Lover.
6. Upon my flowering breast
which I kept wholly for him alone,
there he lay sleeping,
and I caressing him
there in a breeze from the fanning cedars.
7. When the breeze blew from the turret,
as I parted his hair,
it wounded my neck
with its gentle hand,
suspending all my senses.
8. I abandoned and forgot myself,
laying my face on my Beloved;
all things ceased; I went out from myself,
leaving my cares
forgotten among the lilies.Honestly I can’t imagine a world without human drama. What would we do, just sit around and look pretty like roses?
Alan
N
Nimzovik
Guest
Interesting Post. Thankyou.
F
fred_conty
Guest
We do know that God is without limit exept for one thing…what we think he can’t do.
So you are right, he could have.
He didn’t because he thought not to. And that sounds awful but it isn’t.
We need to look at the whole picture.
We must look to Jesus as he hung and suffered on the cross. It isn’t that they are going to hell because he didn’t care. “No greater love does a man have then that he lay down his life for his friends.” So we know that he has given everyone the greatest hope of reaching heaven and we know from his lips “this day you will be with me in paradise.”
We also know that the grace of God is given to each so that they will not perish but be happy with him.
So the question is answered by another mystery, namely, why dosen’s each person accept and use the love that Jesus gave them? They have to answer that one. For nothing is impossible to them if they call upon him.
Just some thoughts.
R
R_C
Guest
Don’t try to reason things backwards…things like God’s omniscence and predestination are very complex theological topics that should, as a rule of thumb, not be used in order to understand the thoughts of God - not that any of us could ever do this, of course, but that makes it even harder.
The point is that God made every creature free to choose. The Archangel Lucifer was a pure spirit with a major intellect. He and the other angels were tested (remember that at the beginning the angels were not yet in heaven before the Beatific Vision), and out of sheer free will he decided to rebel against the Lord. He was free to choose, like the Archangel Michael (who fought him back). I recall that a third of all the angels followed Lucifer - they were also free to choose their way.
St. Thomas Aquinas, when speaking of these matters, gives the definite proof that no evil comes from God’s will. We cannot (name removed by moderator)ute to God the works of Satan and his wicked legions, nor can we (name removed by moderator)ute to God the sin of Adam and Even, or the betrayal of Judas. It is pointless to wreck our heads on the thought that God, for whom there is no such thing as past, present, or future, knew that they would have done so. They were free to choose, and God did not predestine them to sin or betray Him - they had all the chances and graces needed to remain faithful to God.
As for the angels, they had way more than us: a knowledge beyond comparison. Which is why Christ, when we sinned under temptation, came down in His mercy to redeem us, but the choice of the fallen angels is a definite one - the coming of Christ did not and could not move them to repentance, like it does with us.
Then again: you say Satan leads many people to eternal misery. That is also partially correct: for we know from God’s own words that there is no temptation that cannot be overcome, and that where sin abounds, grace abounds all the more. We even know that in our weakness, the power of Christ is made perfect, and that by faith through charity we can (a) fulfill the law, (b) do the works of Christ “and even greater works”, (c) be perfect as the heavenly Father is perfect. We know these truths as facts, because they come from the lips of the living Word of God. We also know that God does not expect us to be faultless, but, rather, that He underwent much pain in order to merit for us infinite possibilities to repent and be forgiven and justified in sanctifying grace. So there is no excuse: even if I fail, I can always repent and I will find Christ’s hand outstretched and ready to sanctify me and push me forward towards heaven. So nobody who is tempted, be it by the fallen angels, be it by our imperfections, be it by the world of darkness, can be lead into eternal mysery except by themselves, and nobody goes into the state of hell without willfully choosing to do so, that is, fully knowing where they are headed and not doing anything about it.
God’s omnibenevolence shines from the gift of free will, that makes us in his image and likeness. If He acted in any other way - as your question may suppose - then we would not be his children, but his slaves. And no matter how well treated, a slave is always a slave.
It is our freedom, our freedom to understand, to know, to worship without fear, to see God face to face in Christ, to receive immortal life, to partake in the divine nature, to be all joined into a perfect brotherhood with God Himself…these are the fruits of God’s omnibenevolence.
His coming down from heaven, becoming man, obeying like a slave, suffering and dying like a criminal, being insulted like a fool, humbling Himself in the form of bread and wine and giving Himself in body, soul, and divinity to each of us…these are the works of the omnibenevolent God, who took upon Himself all the sufferings that our own free will causes. And nobody will ever be able to say, no matter how much he suffers because of other men, that God is unfair, or not merciful, or - God forbid - not good.
We are not called to understand God’s thoughts - that is beyond pride, beyond vanity. We are called to understand God’s plan for mankind, as taught by Christ and revealed to His Church. We are called to live the faith with charity. This is how Christ - who was true man and true God - lived His life, day by day, with peace and joy amidst tribulations.
F
FireFromHeaven
Guest
Thank you that answered all my questions.I think God likes to play hide-and-seek. Look at the day/night cycles. Things come alive in spring and drop dead in fall.
Like playing “he loves me, he loves me not” if it’s going to have any meaning there has to be a chance he doesn’t love me. So that’s like hide-and-seek. He had to give us free will because He wanted to see what happens if a human is given a choice to love back or not.
The Word is full or stories about separations, and returns. Lost, and found. Asleep and now awake, dead and now alive. There can’t be a welcome home reunion without first a separation. Nor is there a need for healing and forgiveness, if there is no hurting and sin. What would saints do without any broken people to minister to?
For all this reason, frankly my ego is happy that Adam chose the way he did. Because now where there is evil all over the world and a loving Savior teachings us how to work on fixing it, it gives me a reason to exist. It gives me a reason to love God, over and above all the things of the earth that I loved before I finally became confirmed in my own experience of unity with the Lord.
The problem God had, and it made it a boring day in the life of bliss in the garden IMO, is too much celebrity. Like a famous person in the world, people will naturally flock to. Many of them will be looking for favors, because famous people in the world have power. Well, God has a lot of power too, so if somebody comes up to Him and says, “I love you,” how does the poor creature even know what love is, if that love hasn’t been tested? The rich and famous have a hard time judging whether anyone they meet really cares about them, or is influenced by the person’s power. Like I remember Rich Mullins talking about that as one of the reasons he preferred to hang around his old friends who knew him before he got famous. How does he know if the people he met later have any concern for him as a person, at all? That’s why it is so comical that God chose to introduce Love Incarnate in the package of a lowly, humble baby in a manger. Who’d have thought that would be how God chose to enter into this world, after letting Satan mix it up for a few years?
Honestly I think the Lord allowed Satan to test all of us, so that our love may be purified and strengthened. Love that is tested and found true. Not just following God like so many lemmings. Problem with Adam’s mess, was that the lemmings lost their orientation toward God so they didn’t have anybody to follow until the second Adam, aka Jesus. Jesus said He came to divide, well the lemmings were following any worldly promise that caught their eye, so when Jesus started calling them, the ones who heard His voice were “divided” out of the pack of the rest and went with Him. The ones who heard His voice were the meek ones whose own (worldly) wills were quiet enough their heart could hear that calling. So basically He is “distilling” the population by calling those who wish a pure heart to go His direction. So sin, like yeast, got mixed through the dough. Now we are baking the loaves of bread in the oven of humility, purgation, and other activities that kill the yeast, the yeast having first been instrumental in shaping and giving character to the bread. Meanwhile the rest of the population continues to run wild and multiply (that’s one thing Adam knew how to obey) and every now and then one is called out to go into the furnace of love.
Saint John of the Cross describes such a soul going through purification, according to the Stanzas of the Soul:
So after Adam’s sin spread throughout creation and thoroughly put the world to death, Jesus came and showed us all how we can be harvesters, harvesting pieces of the mysterious puzzles of the kingdom and putting them into place. Then he declared the harvest is ready. So the games are on, and we are all players, if we so choose – we walk with Jesus and bring our dough into the crucible. So Jesus called us all out of the pack, and then showed us how to become united again. So basically Adam shattered the knowledge of God and divided it dualistically (diabolically) into tiny pieces. Jesus showed us how to call to the pieces so that the ones who hear His voice through our actions and prayers will motivate toward His Father.Code:1. One dark night, fired with love's urgent longings -- ah, the sheer grace! -- I went out unseen, my house being now all stilled. 2. In darkness, and secure, by the secret ladder, disguised, -- ah, the sheer grace! -- in darkness and concealment, my house being now all stilled. 3. On that glad night, in secret, for no one saw me, nor did I look at anything, with no other light or guide than the one that burned in my heart. 4. This guided me more surely than the light of noon to where he was awaiting me -- him I knew so well -- there in a place where no one appeared. 5. O guiding night! O night more lovely than the dawn! O night that has united the Lover with his beloved, transforming the beloved in her Lover. 6. Upon my flowering breast which I kept wholly for him alone, there he lay sleeping, and I caressing him there in a breeze from the fanning cedars. 7. When the breeze blew from the turret, as I parted his hair, it wounded my neck with its gentle hand, suspending all my senses. 8. I abandoned and forgot myself, laying my face on my Beloved; all things ceased; I went out from myself, leaving my cares forgotten among the lilies.
Honestly I can’t imagine a world without human drama. What would we do, just sit around and look pretty like roses?
Alan
L
Lady_Love
Guest
That’s what I do…sit and look pretty.:curtsey::kiss4you:Honestly I can’t imagine a world without human drama. What would we do, just sit around and look pretty like roses?
Alan
What’s wrong with that?!:whacky:
R
R_C
Guest
It’s in the summary of orthodox Christian doctrine which we call the Catechism.
The Beatific Vision is described as seeing God face to face. Both the holy souls of the Church Triumphant and the angels that withstood the trial are admitted to the Beatific Vision and are called “saints”.
You can read more about it here, and particularly interesting is the section on the Impeccability of the Blessed (before the Beatific Vision).
With regards to theology, we know a few things with different degrees of certainty:
The specifics of Sacred Tradition can also be found in the Catholic Encyclopedia:
The Beatific Vision is described as seeing God face to face. Both the holy souls of the Church Triumphant and the angels that withstood the trial are admitted to the Beatific Vision and are called “saints”.
You can read more about it here, and particularly interesting is the section on the Impeccability of the Blessed (before the Beatific Vision).
With regards to theology, we know a few things with different degrees of certainty:
- God set a supernatural final end for the angels, the immediate vision of God, and endowed them with sanctifying grace in order that they might achieve this end. (Sententia Certa)
- The angels were subjected to a moral testing. (Sententia Certa as regards the fallen angels, Sententia Communis as regards the good.)
- Sententia certa refers to teachings without final approval but clearly deduced from revelation.
- Sententia communis refers to beliefs which are widely held, and generally accepted by theologians, but not dogmatically asserted.
- Status