When Satanic criminals desecrate hosts

[RomanCrusader]

When Satanic criminals desecrate consecrated Hosts, does Christ feel pain? If the satanist lights the Host ablaze, does Christ feel fire? When the Satanist whips the host, does Christ feel lashes in Heaven?

I understand the concept of the real presence. I also understand Jesus sits at the right Hand of the Father.

So whenever a host is damaged, is Christ being tortured in Heaven?

 

[LilyM]

I’ve never heard of Satanists whipping the host :bigyikes:

I think he feels it as he feels any sin - and it pains him in some way. I think he feels the weakness and loss in his body that it causes - something like he felt the power going out of him when the woman who touched his robe was healed.

 

[cheese_sdc]

When Satanic criminals desecrate consecrated Hosts, does Christ feel pain? If the satanist lights the Host ablaze, does Christ feel fire? When the Satanist whips the host, does Christ feel lashes in Heaven?

I understand the concept of the real presence. I also understand Jesus sits at the right Hand of the Father.

So whenever a host is damaged, is Christ being tortured in Heaven?

I don’t think so, otherwise what would chewing do?

 

[palmas85]

When Satanic criminals desecrate consecrated Hosts, does Christ feel pain? If the satanist lights the Host ablaze, does Christ feel fire? When the Satanist whips the host, does Christ feel lashes in Heaven?

I understand the concept of the real presence. I also understand Jesus sits at the right Hand of the Father.

So whenever a host is damaged, is Christ being tortured in Heaven?

Jesus as far as I know suffers pain for every sin that is committed, by Satanists, and by me and you. Every sin that mankind commits is an affront and insult and an injury to Go, to Jesus and to the Holy Spirit.

It is not just the Satanists who hurt and insult the Lord. So do you, and so do I.

Especially me:bigyikes: . We are all sinners and sin is an affront to God.

 

[cheese_sdc]

Can someone post a Church document which states that Jesus continues suffering in His (currently) glorified state.

He did not appear to be suffering physically (or in any other way) in the Gospel accounts after the ressurrection.

Jesus did suffer on the Cross for the sin of the world (and our particular sin), but I would wonder about saying that He continues to suffer.

 

[prodigal-sun]

In the Garden of Gethsemane “Our Lord” took upon his shoulder every sin - past, present & future. So as God is not in time and space the sin we commit at any given time is given over to our lord through his suffering. Just as his original sacrifice is present at every Catholic mass so to is his suffering everytime we sin!

Oh my Lord, forgive us our sins, save us from the fires of hell and lead all souls to heaven, especially those in most need of thy mercy!

Peace!

 

[palmas85]

Can someone post a Church document which states that Jesus continues suffering in His (currently) glorified state.

He did not appear to be suffering physically (or in any other way) in the Gospel accounts after the ressurrection.

Jesus did suffer on the Cross for the sin of the world (and our particular sin), but I would wonder about saying that He continues to suffer.

I assume that you are addressing this discussion from a Protestant style Sola Scriptura viewpoint. If not I’m sorry. You cannot find everything that has happened , is happening or will happen in Catholicism in Scripture, neatly written out and easy to understand. Gospel accounts about Christ vary considerably from one book to another in many instances. So looking for an absolute, this is the way it was, in them is really kind of a lost cause.

Likewise, there will not be a Church document that expressly addresses and explains everything to the satisfaction of one and all.

As far as the pain that Christ feels when we sin, I can only imagine that it is a kind of spiritual pain more than a physical pain. The pain of our accumulated sins being constantly thrown at him, enveloping him as it were and our normally utter indifference to them and the damage that they cause. In fact I would imagine that it is our indifference and our continued sinning is what causes the greatest pain of all, probably more than the sins themselves.

 

[LilyM]

Can someone post a Church document which states that Jesus continues suffering in His (currently) glorified state.

He did not appear to be suffering physically (or in any other way) in the Gospel accounts after the ressurrection.

Jesus did suffer on the Cross for the sin of the world (and our particular sin), but I would wonder about saying that He continues to suffer.

Don’t have a church document for you but I do have a Bible reference: Revelation 5:6, where John describes a vision of heaven

“I saw in the midst of the elders, ***a Lamb standing, as if slain, ***”

Even in heaven Christ is still the sacrificial Lamb, still being slain for us, and presumably still suffering as such. Calvary doesn’t exist in time. It’s a timeless event.

And remember that Christ DID still bear the wounds of his crucifixion in his hands, feet and side after his Resurrection - he showed them to Thomas. So one could say he was still suffering if he still bore the wounds.

 

[CRW]

Can someone post a Church document which states that Jesus continues suffering in His (currently) glorified state.

He did not appear to be suffering physically (or in any other way) in the Gospel accounts after the ressurrection.

Jesus did suffer on the Cross for the sin of the world (and our particular sin), but I would wonder about saying that He continues to suffer.

A wise priests once told me that Christ has no time; time is a restriction of man. Do we not participate in the sacrifice of the Mass, the representation of Christ suffering and his resurrection each Mass? Have you read St. Faustina’s Diary? If yes, I know this is privation revelation, but she has many visions of Christ in his suffering of the cross.

 

[mdgspencer]

You spoke of only a small part of what happens to hosts. Many Catholics in a state of mortal sin go to communion. What sort of reaction does Christ have when a person in such a state takes communion. He could hardly fail to be displeased at such a thing, I would think. I finally decided after thinking this over several times that Christ is not dismayed at this. As God, he has impertubable goodness. He can be angry or he can be loving, but not suffer for such a thing.

 

[LilyM]

You spoke of only a small part of what happens to hosts. Many Catholics in a state of mortal sin go to communion. What sort of reaction does Christ have when a person in such a state takes communion. He could hardly fail to be displeased at such a thing, I would think. I finally decided after thinking this over several times that Christ is not dismayed at this. As God, he has impertubable goodness. He can be angry or he can be loving, but not suffer for such a thing.

Suffering isn’t evil. Suffering, and being ‘dismayed’ and ‘perturbed’ are perfectly compatible with being good. God was certainly dismayed and perturbed when he threw Lucifer out of heaven, when he sent Adam and Eve out of the Garden of Eden, when he destroyed virtually the entire population of the world in Noah’s flood, and then the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah, all out of righteous anger at their sins. Anger and suffering, I think, must go together. Is there any way you can be comfortably angry if your anger is genuine?

So yes, sin ‘dismays’ and ‘perturbs’ him - more than you could possibly understand.
And I don’t think ‘displeased’ quite covers it. It takes a bit more than that to make almighty God destroy whole populations. Why do you think goodness is incompatible with suffering? Aren’t the best people often the ones who suffer the most? And aren’t they made in God’s image?

 

[batteddy]

Jesus did suffer on the Cross for the sin of the world (and our particular sin), but I would wonder about saying that He continues to suffer.

That’s what I was going to say. Jesus SUFFERED for every sin committed all through time. But he no longer does in his glorified state. Once was enough to transcend all time.

No. Damage to the accidents of the host do nothing; obviously, we can chew it.

 

[cheese_sdc]

Don’t have a church document for you but I do have a Bible reference: Revelation 5:6, where John describes a vision of heaven

“I saw in the midst of the elders, ***a Lamb standing, as if slain, ***”

Even in heaven Christ is still the sacrificial Lamb, still being slain for us, and presumably still suffering as such. Calvary doesn’t exist in time. It’s a timeless event.

And remember that Christ DID still bear the wounds of his crucifixion in his hands, feet and side after his Resurrection - he showed them to Thomas. So one could say he was still suffering if he still bore the wounds.

I would respond by saying that our understanding of the Mass is that the Eucharist is a “re-presentation” of Calvary. As the wise Catholic apologists say, “We do not re-crucify Christ at every Mass.” By that same reasoning, I think that Christ does not suffer in his glorified state.

 

[LilyM]

I would respond by saying that our understanding of the Mass is that the Eucharist is a “re-presentation” of Calvary. As the wise Catholic apologists say, “We do not re-crucify Christ at every Mass.” By that same reasoning, I think that Christ does not suffer in his glorified state.

Yes, but you misunderstand a little. The reason we CAN re-present the sacrifice and suffering of Calvary is because it IS eternally present - suffering and all.

Our mass of today is not separated in time or space from Calvary, which is why we say we don’t re-crucify Christ. Doesn’t mean the sacrifice and the suffering don’t still exist outside of time.

 

[cheese_sdc]

Hello, you have raised many points that I think I need to address in turn.

I assume that you are addressing this discussion from a Protestant style Sola Scriptura viewpoint. If not I’m sorry. You cannot find everything that has happened , is happening or will happen in Catholicism in Scripture, neatly written out and easy to understand.

That is very, very true. But I’m not talking about scripture alone, and I wonder why you think that. We and the Church can only speak of what we see in scripture and Tradition and scripture does not speak of Christ suffering after the resurrection. My original question asked if the anyone knew of a Church document (i.e. Tradition, that spoke of it).

Gospel accounts about Christ vary considerably from one book to another in many instances. So looking for an absolute, this is the way it was, in them is really kind of a lost cause.

I don’t follow here. Are you saying that we shouldn’t look to scripture at all? I would disagree.

Likewise, there will not be a Church document that expressly addresses and explains everything to the satisfaction of one and all.

Some do and some don’t.

As far as the pain that Christ feels when we sin, I can only imagine that it is a kind of spiritual pain more than a physical pain. The pain of our accumulated sins being constantly thrown at him, enveloping him as it were and our normally utter indifference to them and the damage that they cause. In fact I would imagine that it is our indifference and our continued sinning is what causes the greatest pain of all, probably more than the sins themselves.

That is the question, we don’t know what Christ feels.

 

[Al_Masetti]

When Satanic criminals desecrate consecrated Hosts, does Christ feel pain? If the satanist lights the Host ablaze, does Christ feel fire? When the Satanist whips the host, does Christ feel lashes in Heaven?

I understand the concept of the real presence. I also understand Jesus sits at the right Hand of the Father.

So whenever a host is damaged, is Christ being tortured in Heaven?

Just remember that Jesus is THE JUDGE.

The key is: what is the person’s INTENT.

The offense is: the intention to deliberately offend and insult God in the most personal way possible.

You REALLY don’t want to put yourself in that kind of stress.

I’m sure that such a deliberate unrepentant sacrilege would not go over really well at that person’s Last Judgement. You really don’t want to deliberately “tick off” the JUDGE.

On Earth, an offense of that nature is “contempt of court”.

How would you word something like that when JESUS is the judge??

 

[cheese_sdc]

Yes, but you misunderstand a little. The reason we CAN re-present the sacrifice and suffering of Calvary is because it IS eternally present - suffering and all.

Our mass of today is not separated in time or space from Calvary, which is why we say we don’t re-crucify Christ. Doesn’t mean the sacrifice and the suffering don’t still exist outside of time.

I think we almost agree. The passion of Christ is an event that stands both in time and outside of time. It was a specific moment in history because Jesus was a man, and as a man, limited in time and space. However, during his death and in that moment, he suffered for all sins for all time. That aspect of the crucifixion transcends time and space.

Since the question we are discussing is “does Christ continue to suffer” I think that distinction is crucial.

Anyway, I have to go back to prepping for a presentation for an RCIA class tomorrow. Luckily I don’t have to discuss “does Christ still suffer”.

 

[batteddy]

The reason we CAN re-present the sacrifice and suffering of Calvary is because it IS eternally present - suffering and all.

Our mass of today is not separated in time or space from Calvary, which is why we say we don’t re-crucify Christ. Doesn’t mean the sacrifice and the suffering don’t still exist outside of time.

Actually it is seperated in time and space from Calvary. Time and space are accidents and are not the same at mass as at calvary, nor are they essential.

There was another thread on this a while back. It is the Christ Event that is made present again, but it is dogma that it is in an unbloody manner. Not merely “a bloody manner hidden”…

The “Event” is the same because everything essential is the same and the essentials transcend time and space. The High Priest is the same: Christ offers Himself again through the ministry of the priest. The Victim is the same: Christ is mystically slain upon the altar at the double consecration…but since he is in a glorified state, the body and blood don’t seperate…they formally *tend *to since the bread primarily becomes the body and the wine primarily the blood…but the concomitance of one glorified substance makes them inseperable…still, there is an “official” sacramental seperation. And the sacraficial intent of Christ (and Mary?) is the same: to offer to God Christ’s whole being and self. Christ demonstrated how far he was willing to take this (to death) on Calvary, and this earned the merit of every mass.

But we don’t “go back in time” to a suffering Christ. It is a glorified Christ who offers himself now in an unbloody manner in reference to merit earned in a bloody manner once for all times.

We discussed this earlier on these boards, and the concept is really more abstract and it really confuses people and is wrong when people try to phrase it in “science fiction” terminology instead of metaphysical terminology.

 

[palmas85]

Hello, you have raised many points that I think I need to address in turn.

That is very, very true. But I’m not talking about scripture alone, and I wonder why you think that. We and the Church can only speak of what we see in scripture and Tradition and scripture does not speak of Christ suffering after the resurrection. My original question asked if the anyone knew of a Church document (i.e. Tradition, that spoke of it).

I don’t follow here. Are you saying that we shouldn’t look to scripture at all? I would disagree.

Some do and some don’t.

That is the question, we don’t know what Christ feels.

Often non Catholics tend to attack Catholicism on the grounds that it is not scriptural enough, As I said if you were not coming from that angle. I’m sorry. No offense intended These same type of scenarios and arguments are often brought up by them though, trying desperately to find scriptural justification for everything and in so doing put the Catholic faith down.

No I would never say that we should not look to scripture, but we should not and cannot ever look ONLY to scripture., as many of our separated brethren do. To do so completely negates the role of tradition and development of doctrine and theological thought that the Church has had for the past 2000 years or so and can turn almost into a form of idolatry, Bible worship you might say…

And finally, I will concede that I guess in the abstract, we don’t know precisely what Christ feels. But I was taught as a young man that my sins were like a lash on the back of Christ. I have no reason to believe that has changed and believe that my sins and the sins of others do cause Christ a kind of pain. That should include any type of sin even the desecration of the Eucharist.

 

[jco2004]

Even in heaven Christ is still the sacrificial Lamb, still being slain for us, and presumably still suffering as such. Calvary doesn’t exist in time. It’s a timeless event.

The sacrifice of Christ endures forever, but I don’t think the suffering associated with it does. Ultimately, Christ is glorified, which means that His suffering has been transformed into His glory. Joe