When the Church is accused of liberal leanings

[spunjalebi]

Because the Church espouses viewpoints regarding economic and social justice?

I read on a conservative blog about how a commentator was reading CARITAS IN VERITATE and found much of what the Pope had to say was in line with Obama’s political views, other than abortion. Then we had Glen Beck telling people to leave their churches if our priests talked about economic justice.

Isn’t there a difference between addressing the root causes of economic and social injustice by finding the roots which are often tied with selfishness, mistreating other people, and supporting immoral social structures, versus supporting liberal political and social views?

Or, would it be more wise for the Church to remove itself from economic and social issues and focus simply on charities? How can we as the Church, avoid the association with such organizations which water down teachings in order to further their causes? How do we as a church, avoid liberal leanings or views while promoting justice?

Couldn’t it be argued that the idea of “justice” is liberal?

 

[portarica]

Because the Church espouses viewpoints regarding economic and social justice?

I read on a conservative blog about how a commentator was reading CARITAS IN VERITATE and found much of what the Pope had to say was in line with Obama’s political views, other than abortion. Then we had Glen Beck telling people to leave their churches if our priests talked about economic justice.

Isn’t there a difference between addressing the root causes of economic and social injustice by finding the roots which are often tied with selfishness, mistreating other people, and supporting immoral social structures, versus supporting liberal political and social views?

Or, would it be more wise for the Church to remove itself from economic and social issues and focus simply on charities? How can we as the Church, avoid the association with such organizations which water down teachings in order to further their causes? How do we as a church, avoid liberal leanings or views while promoting justice?

Couldn’t it be argued that the idea of “justice” is liberal?

Instead of relying on labels like liberal or conservative, perhaps we should be supporting groups and political agendas that are selfless and sharing as opposed to selfish and greedy. That would put us more in line with what Jesus taught by example and word.

The other thing being more pragmatic in our support would do, is strip away the cover that labels provide. We all know groups that use deceiving labels to prop up their own support or use negative labels to disparage other groups without resorting to facts .

Peace

 

[estesbob]

Because the Church espouses viewpoints regarding economic and social justice?

I read on a conservative blog about how a commentator was reading CARITAS IN VERITATE and found much of what the Pope had to say was in line with Obama’s political views, other than abortion.?

He must have missed the parts about Subsidiarity

 

[tomarin]

Couldn’t it be argued that the idea of “justice” is liberal?

This is a really good question. I wish Bob would expand on what role subsidiarity plays in all of this.

I think that there are two schools of conservative thinking, the libertarian, Murray Rothbard type and the social conservative, Russell Kirk type. I suspect the conservative blogger you read falls into the former category, that is, he favors laissez-faire economic policies. Libertarianism is contrary to church teaching for the same reason that much liberal thinking is contrary to church teaching, namely it imagines a utopian world where everyone is virtuous – in other words, a world in which man’s nature is not fallen.

I don’t really know the answer to your question, but I’m looking forward to the ongoing discussion!

 

[estesbob]

This is a really good question. I wish Bob would expand on what role subsidiarity plays in all of this.

I
I don’t really know the answer to your question, but I’m looking forward to the ongoing discussion!

*Subsidiarity is an organizing principle that matters ought to be handled by the smallest, lowest or least centralized competent authority. The Oxford English Dictionary defines subsidiarity as the idea that a central authority should have a subsidiary function, performing only those tasks which cannot be performed effectively at a more immediate or local level. *

The liberal approach to social issues almost always violates this doctrine

 

[tomarin]

The liberal approach to social issues almost always violates this doctrine

I’m familiar with the concept of subsidiarity but I don’t know what role it plays in the encyclical or the Pope’s thinking about these issues. In other words, when confronted with a person who’s critical of the encyclical because they believe it mandates European-style social-democratic policies (like for example free universities or cradle-to-grave welfare) I’m not sure what to say. I could say “subsidiarity” but without developing it further I’m not sure this would convince them of anything.

(I think it’s because this hypothetical person is already ideologically committed to laissez-faire policies no matter what so for philosophical reasons they’re unlikely to ever question the pure freedom of the free market; but if so the problem is their libertarianism which is a defective philosophy and incompatible with Christianity, not with Caritas in Veritae. But that’s just my speculation.)

 

[St_Francis]

I think that the Church teaches Church teachings, and they are *completely unrelated *to our politics, which are based on materialitic, anti-Catholic, “Enlightenment” thinking. It is not that the Church leans left or right–the Church is instead vertical and has nothing to do with the horizontal.

As it happens, each side of our political spectrum offers a range of political ideas, some of which coincidentally match up with what the Church teaches, but only coincidentally, not because anyone out there has done a serious study of Church teaching and based a proposal on that teaching.

Any linkages we see now are after the fact, as far as I have seen. People push an agenda, and then when the Catholics speak up, since they are a big voting group, a “Catholic veneer” is put over it, sometimes as clumsily as Pelosi’s supposed justification for her stance on abortion, other times in a more nuanced way.

 

[Rascalking]

My opinion, for what it’s worth, is that most people who believe left leaning economic fallacies haven’t seen the outcome they produce. Yes, that means some church leaders as well.

Some people need to read the works of F.A Hayek, Milton Friedman, and Thomas Sowell!

 

[tomarin]

It is not that the Church leans left or right–the Church is instead vertical and has nothing to do with the horizontal/

I’ve heard this before and in some sense it’s true but I also think it’s overstated sometimes. You don’t think the church is a fundamentally conservative institution? That is, it’s pledged to defend the “enduring moral order” of society?

 

[tomarin]

My opinion, for what it’s worth, is that most people who believe left leaning economic fallacies haven’t seen the outcome they produce. Yes, that means some church leaders as well.

Some people need to read the works of F.A Hayek, Milton Friedman, and Thomas Sowell!

A ha! I’m glad you came to join the discussion.

 

[Barbkw]

Obama supports bigger government and socialized government.

Pope Benedict writes about subsidiarity - where problems are handled not by bigger government, but at the lowest level.

“Subsidiarity is an organizing principle that matters ought to be handled by the smallest, lowest or least centralized competent authority.”

To lower health care costs, a majority of Republicans wanted health insurance to be sold across state lines. That wasn’t done.

And now, due to Obama’s forced regulations, all of us who can still afford private health care are having our premiums increase by about $1,200 extra a year.

 

[Rascalking]

A ha! I’m glad you came to join the discussion.

Um, thanks. ::takes a bow::

 

[tomarin]

Um, thanks. ::takes a bow::

Because you’re telling the Pope he needs to read the works of Freedman, Hayek and so on. What do Freedman and Hayek make of subsidiarity? Is it even on their radar?

 

[Joe_5859]

I don’t think Pope Benedict wrote Caritas in Veritate with the political polarities of the U.S. at the forefront of his mind. I think he was speaking the truth about Catholic teaching. If this or that political talking head decides to misconstrue things and label it according to their own preconceptions, then that’s more a commentary on them and their views than on the Holy Father and Catholic teaching.

 

[Rascalking]

Because you’re telling the Pope he needs to read the works of Freedman, Hayek and so on. What do Freedman and Hayek make of subsidiarity? Is it even on their radar?

Friedman. Your spelling the name wrong.

Well, like I said in my OP, I think, for the most part, people who believe left leaning money ideas are ignorant of there outcome and effect on people. A free market helps many, many people.

 

[tomarin]

Friedman. Your spelling the name wrong.

Sorry.

Well, like I said in my OP, I think, for the most part, people who believe left leaning money ideas are ignorant of there outcome and effect on people. A free market helps many, many people.

I don’t want to make knee-jerk arguments against the free market, because I agree with you. On balance it helps more than it hurts – it’s a source of incredible dynamism in our world and we wouldn’t want to tame it unduly. Look at the workers in Chinese factories. Since China became the world’s workshop, those jobs have given them a stable income on which to plan for the future. I’m sure they would rather have those jobs even if they don’t come with all the workplace assurances that workers in First World countries have, than be unemployed.

Still, sometimes entire industries fail and the government props them up. This is not what Milton Friedman would recommend. But I think sometimes it’s the right thing to do if you believe that economic policies should be crafted with some concern for the flesh-and-blood people whose lives they affect. The market should work to benefit our lives, not the other way around. I think this is probably the gist of what Caritas in Veritae is saying, and I think it’s a basic Christian message.

 

[srferdave]

I can’t help but jump into this discussion.

I think when it comes to the negative publicity about social teachings in the Church, some people have had the feeling that they are left leaning. This is far from the truth. The point of social teaching that recent Popes have made quite clear is that we should care for the poor etc. One of the problems is that some of our Church leaders think they know the best way to obtain some of the premises stated in social teaching.

Some left leaning Catholics think that we should steal from the rich and give to the poor. Although they won’t say it that way, that is what happens when we adopt a socialistic government.

Pope Benedict XVI has made it very clear that he is against socialism. He has condemned it in many occasions.

It has been proven in history that the free market works best. Who does not want their freedom!?!?!

 

[portarica]

I can’t help but jump into this discussion.

I think when it comes to the negative publicity about social teachings in the Church, some people have had the feeling that they are left leaning. This is far from the truth. The point of social teaching that recent Popes have made quite clear is that we should care for the poor etc. One of the problems is that some of our Church leaders think they know the best way to obtain some of the premises stated in social teaching.

Some left leaning Catholics think that we should steal from the rich and give to the poor. Although they won’t say it that way, that is what happens when we adopt a socialistic government.

Pope Benedict XVI has made it very clear that he is against socialism. He has condemned it in many occasions.

It has been proven in history that the free market works best. Who does not want their freedom!?!?!

One of the problems with your conclusion about free markets is that they are not free. There are not only economic burdens to entry in many markets, there are also many codified and uncodified restrictions and traditions that take away the freedom to participate freely in the markets.

And stealing from the rich in the form of taxes was acknowledged by Jesus as a reasonable action of governments.

In the US it is ironic that many of those who have the most resistance to taxation for social justice live in the states that enjoy the highest rates of transfer of federal taxes from other states. taxfoundation.org/files/fedspend_per_taxesbystate-20071009.swf

Peace

Peace

 

[spunjalebi]

Er, could we refrain from getting into an in-depth discussion of economics?

 

[Rascalking]

Sorry.

I don’t want to make knee-jerk arguments against the free market, because I agree with you. On balance it helps more than it hurts – it’s a source of incredible dynamism in our world and we wouldn’t want to tame it unduly. Look at the workers in Chinese factories. Since China became the world’s workshop, those jobs have given them a stable income on which to plan for the future. I’m sure they would rather have those jobs even if they don’t come with all the workplace assurances that workers in First World countries have, than be unemployed.

Still, sometimes entire industries fail and the government props them up. This is not what Milton Friedman would recommend. But I think sometimes it’s the right thing to do if you believe that economic policies should be crafted with some concern for the flesh-and-blood people whose lives they affect. The market should work to benefit our lives, not the other way around. I think this is probably the gist of what Caritas in Veritae is saying, and I think it’s a basic Christian message.

I used to think the way you did. That the welfare of the poor was too important to leave to the free market.

However, Let’s look at it this way-in what countries do the the poorest people have the most? It’s the free market countries.