When the love is gone in a woman, you're dead to her

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Now after reading the words to the Carrie Underwood song, the words to Carole King’s “It’s Too Late” and Gloria Gaynor’s “I Will Survive” keep running through my head.
 
A lot of hidden bitterness on this thread I think.
As God’s gift to women I would like to defend men. I have never let romance leave my marriage of twenty years. I look for it everywhere, pubs, clubs, etc. I never ignore the little woman, often ringing her to make sure the meal is ready when I get home.
I always compliment her on her cooking and how she cleans the car; gardening, washing and all her little interests around the house. She really makes it a home.
Only kidding Clear water!
Men do not, in reality, notice a deteriorating situation; often being simplistically selfish. Some women enable this behaviour for too long. However, a loving relationship takes two to endure and this requires patience and perseverance with a great sense of humility required.
Thankfully, I recognised the jewel I married all those years ago and treat her as my special princess in a lot of little ways. She has stood by me through thick and thin and I would defend her with my life, as is my duty as a husband. It is also a matter of responsibility as a husband that some men do not recognise. I have an almost Neanderthal concept of ownership of my wife which no feminist would agree with. But it is not ownership of a thing, but a responsibility for a loved one and only person. I must protect feed clothe and house her for all my life and ensure her financial protection after I die. No one can replace her and, whilst I know there is no marriage in heaven, I hope we can live together in heaven in a nice little house near a brook with room for a pig.
Many relationships are all about me and not us. When you lose that partnership it is hard to come back to that level of trust.
 
ClearWater said:
Well, a lot of times, men say that they came home, and she was gone, no notice whatsoever. However, if they would be honest with themselves, I think in the majority of cases, there were signs there was trouble, but this got ignored, sometimes months or years.

Yes.

Some women say, repeatedly, what the problem is, ask for help, but the man will often say it’s not his problem. Sometimes, she will ask, even beg him to go to counseling. Again, that often doesn’t happen, either. Often, they hear things like, “It’s YOU! YOUR problem!” Okay, so she goes alone.

Yes.

She may distance herself progressively more in almost predictable stages, if one knows what to look for.

She usually goes through the SAME stages of a breakup as the man, in many cases, just before he does. When she is warning him there’s trouble, and he’s going on, ignoring her, that’s when her love is starting to die.

Yes.

She may not be able to confide in him, talk to him, feels uncared about, unloved, unappreciated, disrepected, in many cases.

She often will not get the emotional support she’s looking for, be at least tempted to look outside the relationship for what she would like to get within the relationship.

If men would only listen. I don’t know what it is about men. Women basically shout, and it often takes a wakeup call, like leaving him before he’ll realize there’s a problem. He will act like it’s a surprise.

**Yes.

I have a friend who is struggling at home with very difficult circumstances (husband who works long hours, some health problems of her own, a toddler, and a disabled 1st grader that her husband insists that she homeschool, even though after some experience doing it, she doesn’t want to any more). No matter how many times she tells her husband that she’s struggling, he somehow can’t hear her. No matter what she says, he believes that she’s doing just fine and it really can’t be that hard.

If she ever leaves him, he’ll be surprised, but I won’t be.

He’s not a bad guy, it’s just that he somehow can’t hear her.

Oh, and unsurprisingly, he takes pretty strong traditional gender roles. She should be homeschooling happily because she’s the woman and it’s somehow wicked of her to want to send their child to school for 7 hours a day. He, on the other hand, has never cared for his own children for 7 hours by himself.
**

In some cases, there will be no talking, intimacy. There will be fighting, disagreements, or intimacy only for sex’s sake, no love. Sometimes, the man is the only one getting pleasure there, a very one-sided, selfish act of “love”, not noticing his partner is often never satisfied, just going through the motions for him.

There can be a feeling that there will be this fighting, or not speaking, and then the man will come together, just want sex, or maybe not even that.

Yeah.

If the woman gives him sex, she can feel that he will interpret this to mean “All’s well”. So, some women try to give a stronger message, move into a separate bedroom. Sometimes, even this isn’t enough, and it takes moving out of the house.

It can practically take hitting the man over the head before he will admit something’s wrong, often blame the woman 100% for what wrong, not realizing that in the majority of cases, he often played at least a part.

**Yes. **

To say the woman is 100% responsible for the breakup, and he is 0% responsible usually isn’t accurate. In most cases, it’s both. Sometimes, it is also the man that makes the woman’s life difficult for a bunch of reasons, but he may not want to see, or admit that.

It’s just often easier to blame the woman.

I think many, if not most, women would love to be in a loving relationship and marriage. However, after the marriage, it can be quite disappointing, becoming routine, drudgery, boring. The chase is often gone, zero romance. If there’s sex, that’s it, but no romance.

For a woman, romance can feel tantamount to love. It can help women get through all kinds of things, I suspect, from childbirth right on down.

Sometimes, women put up with such thankless, tedious, ugly, disgusting work, changing poopy, smelly diapers. They can be viewed as someone who doesn’t “work”, because it isn’t outside the home. Women can feel so unappreciated, put down.

It can be less than intellectually stimulating.

Sometimes, housework, cleaning toilets, kids fighting, not getting enough sleep and rest can be quite exhausting.

I think most women wish there would be a remnant of courtship after marriage, but generally, the “dating” all but stops not long after the rings are exchanged.

A lot of women more or less NEED romance to function, sexually. Otherwise, sex becomes just another bodily function. Sex for women, for example, is largely emotional and mental.

Men often miss the point, think women need bigger, but maybe she’d just like a man who touches her because he cares, not because he wants something from her, is trying to get somewhere.

If men could ever “get” this, they could probably actually have the women in their lives eating out of their hands instead of wanting to divorce them.

When you date, there are all these expressions of love…gifts, flowers, going out. It’s just disappointing when it ends is all, and it’s hard. There’s a longing for that stage when there was passion, romance, beauty, and love.
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Yes. I think that was very insightful.
 
ClearWater said:
There are all kinds in this world. Some women don’t make good marriage partners. If one got one of those, that’s awful.

Yeah, some turn really vindictive, and in those cases, that’s tragic.

I don’t know you or your situation, can’t say what’s going on.

I’m just saying how it can sometimes feel like from a woman’s slant, but even so, it’s different.

There are women who can be cruel. Although, I sometimes wonder if there are signs of that before marriage, as well, not sure.
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Yeah. There are lots of girls and women who are TERRIBLE friends and always having huge drama-filled things with their female friends and I wonder how many guys don’t notice that rather obvious fact. Hint: You’re not going to get better treatment than her friends.
 
If ever a set of posts deserved to be stickied at the top of this forum, ClearWater’s posts certainly merit this. Her posts should be required reading of every man considering marriage and a part of Retrouvaille and other marriage retreats.
 
Groo said:
If ever a set of posts deserved to be stickied at the top of this forum, ClearWater’s posts certainly merit this. Her posts should be required reading of every man considering marriage and a part of Retrouvaille and other marriage retreats.
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Yes!
 
Here are some more thoughts:
  1. There’s a now-traditional rule of thumb that it requires 5 positive interactions to extinguish the effect of 1 negative interaction.
marriedmansexlife.com/2014/09/five-date-nights-one-fight-night/

There’s a video there with John Gottman (the guy who came up with the idea) explaining it.

(I’d clarify that whatever your significant other feels to be a negative is a negative. And if it isn’t a negative for them, it doesn’t matter how other people feel about the same thing.)
  1. I have a personal rule that if your spouse mentions a particular concern 3X within a short period of time, that means it’s a big deal and you’d better figure out what you’re going to do about it. If it’s mentioned three times, it’s dumb to think that the issue is going to go away if you ignore it. This is a big one, but if your spouse keeps saying “I’m struggling!” or “I can’t cope!” this means (brace yourselves) that your spouse is struggling and can’t cope and you need to do something about it. Your spouse may be in such a bad way, so overwhelmed that they are incapable of doing normal problem solving. Help may be very simple to get (especially with your engagement and your help), but impossible for the person to obtain by themselves. Also, when there’s an obvious solution (like public school for my friend’s disabled kid) don’t you be the person pulling the life preserver away from your spouse.
  2. Don’t think that the fact that your spouse used to complain a lot and has suddenly stopped complaining is a good sign and that everything is suddenly hunky dory due to your masterful strategy of ignoring your spouse’s needs. It’s actually a terrible sign. It may mean a number of different things: 1) your spouse has given up on you as a source of help or improvement in their life 2) your spouse has taken things into their own hands without talking to you, because talking to you is useless and 3) your spouse has given up on life in general. It’s very, very unlikely that after complaining vociferously about something, that your spouse is suddenly contented with the situation.
 
Groo said:
If ever a set of posts deserved to be stickied at the top of this forum, ClearWater’s posts certainly merit this. Her posts should be required reading of every man considering marriage and a part of Retrouvaille and other marriage retreats.
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lol!

Ah! :rotfl:
 
Estevao said:
…This is why I like to listen to country music like EasterJoy because I think it makes people into romantics.
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Oh, yeah, country music will make you all starry-eyed about male-female relations, LOL! 😃

(I would say that over its history country music has painted a more complete view of the ups and downs of romance and marriage–it lets itself have more of a sense of humor about the topic, too.)
 
Groo said:
If ever a set of posts deserved to be stickied at the top of this forum, ClearWater’s posts certainly merit this. Her posts should be required reading of every man considering marriage and a part of Retrouvaille and other marriage retreats.
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Xantippe said:
Yes!
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:tiphat: Thanks!

Well, I have dated quite a bit, have made a lot of mistakes in judgment. I’ve done a lot of things, international, and out-of-state dating. I was married, twice, divorced, twice…annuled both times.

Also, I spend time on the forum. I don’t even have children, myself, but listen to others on the forum and elsewhere. I interpreted in mental health, hospitals. I’ve heard a lot of other people’s stories, seen people divorcing, and a lot of it actually begins to sound the same.

I tried marriage counseling in my first marriage, and I have heard that about saying 5 positives to every negative. We often get a kind of “tunnel vision”, often can only see, and talk about, what’s wrong.

Often, we can do 100 things right, but when a relationship is “on the rocks”, for some reason, we can only see the one bad things, not be able to see the good.

One time, I even tried astrology, and though I no longer am involved in that, the counselor recommended I do a couple of exercises. One was to list, on a sheet of paper, daily, 100 things I am grateful for. In the beginning, I had trouble coming up with hundred! Now, I could probably come up with 1,000!

Then, he also had me do an exercise which he referred to as “the list” exercise. It was about boundaries. In relationships, many times when we are experiencing problems, it can be also about boundaries…one or the other.

For example, if I am name calling, I am crossing a boundary of that person. If they are calling me names, they’re crossing my boundary.

Oh yeah, and I also have a bachelor’s degree in social work and almost a master’s.
I studied a little bit of psychology and one class in psychiatry.

I’m also 50 years old, have lived 10 years in a foreign country. I’ve been through disasters and lots of circumstances. Once, I threatened to write a book about my life, and one of my students told me to do that, saying that if I ever were to write the story of my life, she’d read it!

I have a disability, which started 40 years ago. I have had cancer.

I worked 3 years as a temp, worked in bunches of settings, schools, all over the place.

I taught school, 3 schools in Mexico…now, 5th one, really, now, working with the blind and visually handicapped.

I know fluent Spanish, learned braille in Spanish and am trying to, in English.

I don’t have any qualifications almost in what a good marriage is like. I’ve had good friendships, though.

I can tell you what NOT to do. 😉

However, one day, I would like to get into a relationship where I can hold up as a model to others.

I’m not a perfect person. I used to try to tell myself that my ex-husbands were 100% at fault in this, but no. One person once told me, there are no “angels”. (Well, there are, but he meant that it’s extremely rare when we are totally and completely blameless).

I have had depression, codependency. Now, I have a disability, have had cancer. I’m not thin. I have a lot of flaws. Now, I’ve learned to admit them at least to myself. Not just any man could handle me! I have lived alone for a very very long time, don’t like adapting to others. I like the freedom of the single life.

So, I’ve re-examined my relationships, trying harder to really see where I went wrong. I went wrong in not knowing my partners well enough. Secondly, there were red flags, which I chose to ignore. I got into marriage, very rushed, didn’t properly prepare.

I just exercised poor judgement all around. Had I to do it all over, I’d know my partner really really well, go more slowly, go through the entire precana, and commit in a Church, with God’s blessing.

I’d pray with my spouse, go to church with him. If there were problems, I’d seek marriage counseling. If he refused to go, I’d go by myself. I’d seek support, not try to do it all alone.
 
I would try to do as the counselor suggested, give 5 positives to every negative. Neither of us was doing this.

I’d try to REALLY listen to my spouse and his concerns and complaints, not tune him out.

Also, I had depression and am codependent. I needed to be in treatment for both. I wasn’t taking care of myself. In my first marriage, I had a disability, didn’t even have health insurance!

I’d be more practical and realistic, not even attempt a marriage where I wouldn’t have my basic needs met.

I’d seek out counseling or help early on, not waiting till we’re ready to call divorce lawyers.

As to the OP, if we were to talk to your…wife…ex-girlfriends, and we asked them what your flaws were, do you know what they would answer? We probably should, but generally, despite the fact a relationship may have ended due to that, we may not even remember.

Remember what a spouse says is wrong. REALLY listen…not passively, actively.

If one is actively listening, you should be able to respond as if you were her.

For example, once, I asked a social work professor how to respond empathically to someone using drugs (since I hadn’t used drugs, wasn’t even sure how). You reflect back the feeling. So, one would, as a counselor, say something like, “Drugs can feel really good!”

You put yourself in their shoes, be able to speak as if you were that other person.

At the root, there are only really 5 basic emotions. All the others are variations of this five. We feel, say, love, anger, disappointment, disgust, and I think surprise. That’s about it. Irritation, form of anger.

There is usually SO many things that can be done to save a marriage.

Men seem sort of dense. Often, everyone up and down knows they are having problems, ready to divorce, and for some reason, the man always seems the last to know! He can seem shocked!

I don’t know what it is. I don’t know if they are just so into their work, and if they are having sex, for them, it’s fine. When your partner is having problems, it IS your problem, whether you are feeling it or not.

Take what she says seriously, because in about…is it 75% of the cases, it’s the woman who initiates divorce, not the man.

Keep communication open. Communication, and good communication, is everything.

Oh yeah, there is an EXCELLENT book out now on the “love languages”. It is the coolest thing since sliced bread!

I forget the title and have to run out to class, now. Someone else probably knows the name.
 
One interesting thing about the 5-1 rule for a ratio of positive to negative interactions is that it explains why it’s not good enough just to apologize. If you do one bad thing and then apologize, that at best puts you at a 1-1 ratio. You haven’t broken even until you get to 5 to 1. “But I said I’m sorry!” is just the beginning for making things right. A lot of people don’t understand that–they think one “sorry” fixes everything. It doesn’t.

That may sound unreasonable, but I think that if we look around at our other social relationships, 5-1 is pretty much a minimum. If I have a friend whose interactions with me are 1-1 or 2-1 or even 3-1, our friendship is going to die.

We need to treat our spouses at least as well as we treat our friends.
 
ClearWater said:
I don’t know what it is. I don’t know if they are just so into their work, and if they are having sex, for them, it’s fine. When your partner is having problems, it IS your problem, whether you are feeling it or not.
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Yes.

About the sex thing–I think this explains part of the mystery of why some women just stop having sex with their husbands. It may be literally the only way that they can be heard. Nothing they can say about problems they are having seems to get through. It’s like they are squeaking in tiny little bat voices that their husbands can’t hear.

(Part is just hormonal or life stage or depression, of course.)
 
Xantippe said:
One interesting thing about the 5-1 rule for a ratio of positive to negative interactions is that it explains why it’s not good enough just to apologize. If you do one bad thing and then apologize, that at best puts you at a 1-1 ratio. You haven’t broken even until you get to 5 to 1. “But I said I’m sorry!” is just the beginning for making things right. A lot of people don’t understand that–they think one “sorry” fixes everything. It doesn’t.

That may sound unreasonable, but I think that if we look around at our other social relationships, 5-1 is pretty much a minimum. If I have a friend whose interactions with me are 1-1 or 2-1 or even 3-1, our friendship is going to die.

We need to treat our spouses at least as well as we treat our friends.
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One of the great rules about apologies I was ever taught was this:
If the apology comes first, then reasons(s) come as the last thing you say, it is actually an excuse.
If the reason are explained first, then the apology is the last thing you say, you may have actually made an apology.
In other words, always make the most important point the summation, but especially in an apology. (This could be why confession lists your sins in kind and number, *without *extenuating background information such as provocations?)

Example:
Excuse: I’m sorry I yelled at you, I shouldn’t have done that, but you were driving me crazy.
Apology: You were driving me crazy, but I shouldn’t have yelled at you. I’m sorry.

Don’t make excuses and then expect to have those counted as apologies. That doesn’t fly.
 
Xantippe said:
Yes.

About the sex thing–I think this explains part of the mystery of why some women just stop having sex with their husbands. It may be literally the only way that they can be heard. Nothing they can say about problems they are having seems to get through. It’s like they are squeaking in tiny little bat voices that their husbands can’t hear.

(Part is just hormonal or life stage or depression, of course.)
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“All happy families are alike; each unhappy family is unhappy in its own way.”
― Leo Tolstoy, Anna Karenina

Sex drive definitely falls under the Anna Karenina Principle, which Jared Diamond used in his book Guns, Germs and Steel to explain why only a select few animal species could be successfully domesticated. A sex drive is a thing that needs a number of things working in its favor in order to work in a healthy way. If one area that needs to be working is out of whack, all of the good working in all of the other areas won’t fix that.

This is why a marriage and a family each take a lot of care. You can’t just make one area work really well and use that to get away with neglecting the rest.
 
EasterJoy said:
This is why a marriage and a family each take a lot of care. You can’t just make one area work really well and use that to get away with neglecting the rest.
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Yes–it’s the really bad things you notice. If it’s a sunny day and you’re enjoying a delicious picnic lunch, but a wasp just stung you, it’s no good thinking about the lovely sunshine.

For men, I suspect one big temptation is (if they’re good at their profession and making a good income) to just lean on that and think that that covers everything. Well, it doesn’t. If it were, the Bible would just say, “Men, be good at your jobs and make a good living.” It doesn’t say that.
 
Xantippe said:
One interesting thing about the 5-1 rule for a ratio of positive to negative interactions is that it explains why it’s not good enough just to apologize. If you do one bad thing and then apologize, that at best puts you at a 1-1 ratio. You haven’t broken even until you get to 5 to 1. “But I said I’m sorry!” is just the beginning for making things right. A lot of people don’t understand that–they think one “sorry” fixes everything. It doesn’t.

That may sound unreasonable, but I think that if we look around at our other social relationships, 5-1 is pretty much a minimum. If I have a friend whose interactions with me are 1-1 or 2-1 or even 3-1, our friendship is going to die.

We need to treat our spouses at least as well as we treat our friends.
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Yeah!

Also, check this out from “The 5 Love Languages”.5lovelanguages.com/

For some people, they are physical people, like physical touch, sexually intimacy, respond to that.

Some, like gifts. Others couldn’t care less about gifts.

Some, like words of encouragement and affirmation.

Acts of service.

Quality time.

With my mother, one of her “love languages” seemed to be acts of service. My father would not tell any of us he loved us, no compliments, but she would insist he loved us. I would ask how she knew that. She said, “Because he will DO for us!”

I didn’t know what she meant really, till I was married. I’m divorced, by my ex-husband would try to tell me, daily, he loved me. I’d ask if he could hold the ladder when I went up it to put in the insulation…no.

I’d ask if he could hold the car door while I changed the door handle…no.

I asked him if he could dig a hole…no.

I got to a point where I didn’t care if he told me he loved me or not, just wanted help with the work!

Also, there is an extension of the love languages which addresses our “language” of apology. For some people, the only way to apologize is to say, “I will pay for that vase I broke”…to offer to make it up to the person.

For some, it’s an expression of remorse they are looking for.

For others, it’s that the person will not repeat the offense again.

I think it listed 5 of these, as well.
5lovelanguages.com/profile/apology/

They recommend knowing our “love language” and our “apology language”.

So, if you are offended, how would you like to be treated?..an apology? (privately? publicly?) offered retribution? expressed remorse? have it never happen again?

A lot of us are combinations of all 5, but usually, we have one “language” that tends to dominate. They say it’s helpful to know that for ourselves and our partner.
 
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