When the mass becomes a circus

[agapewolf]

Agapewolf,

Perhaps a third party can cool down what seems to be a heated interaction which dates to previous experiences.

I will say that I have also heard of things like people assembling around the altar at LifeTeen Masses. There may be spin to some degree, as I am sure there is, but in regards to this and other similar specific allegations, are they or are they not accurate?

LT used to have teens around the altar as if they were part of the ministers at mass (like servers in a way). When the GIRM changed, LT approached Arinze to ask what he would like LT to do. Arinze offered an indult for the practice, but LT decided that it would be prudent to stop. It is no longer allowed.

LT has officially instructed all programs to stop the practice. Unfortunately, there are a few that continue. What should be understood here is that many do not claim to be doing LT programs technically, and they continue to do the practice. (although they may still subscribe to the resources, therefore are listed on the website). This is a problem with quality control that can’t quite get a hold on.

 

[Lazerlike42]

LT used to have teens around the altar as if they were part of the ministers at mass (like servers in a way). When the GIRM changed, LT approached Arinze to ask what he would like LT to do. Arinze offered an indult for the practice, but LT decided that it would be prudent to stop. It is no longer allowed.

LT has officially instructed all programs to stop the practice. Unfortunately, there are a few that continue. What should be understood here is that many do not claim to be doing LT programs technically, and they continue to do the practice. (although they may still subscribe to the resources, therefore are listed on the website). This is a problem with quality control that can’t quite get a hold on.

Thanks.

I have to say, I can understand why Benedictgal would question your information when you say that Cardinal Arinze offered an indult to stand around the Altar. It is a very problematic concept, and Cardinal Arinze is not the type to do that sort of thing. It would be very beneficial if you could document this. It would help Benedictgal, I am sure, and in Christian Charity one ought to do what they can to help others accept the truth regardless of any factors or circumstances.

I’ll do my own checking to see if I can find anything. At best, I help out a few folks. At worst, I satisfy my curiosity and expand my knowledge.

 

[agapewolf]

It was part of the discussion with the changes of the GIRM. OF course there wouldnt’ be documentation. No need to document, because it wasn’t the end result.

But that doesn’t mean I’m a liar. It doesn’t mean it didn’t happen.

WHy must one need documentation of something that has no consequence? I am simply refuting the terrible and name slugging accusations here…there is no documentation of some of the things said “against” lifeteen, but no one seems to be called upon to provide that. In fact, I have PROVEN them false, yet they seem to recur over and over. It’s tiring.

How do I know it happened? This information, and the conversations were relayed to many many folks at the different LT conferences/conventions in the explanations of the program itself and how it has evolved. And they weren’t lying either.

 

[Cat]

Our bishop (Thomas Doran) is known as one of the most conservative and orthodox bishops in the U.S.

(It seems that all of the bishops in our diocese over the years have this same reputation.)

We have had TLM in our diocese (and in our city) since the mid 1980s.

But our bishop also enthusiastically endorses Lifeteen Mass.

I don’t mean to sound nasty or anything. But I think it is wiser for me to trust my knowledgeable and virtuous bishop who has proved in real life for many decades that he is worthy of that trust, then to listen to someone on an Internet forum that I’ve never met and have no idea (other than from their comments) how they live in real life.

And from their comments, sad to say, I receive the impression that some of the posters here spend a great deal of time tearing down rather than building up. How can anyone have so much time to prove that so many others are doing Mass wrong?!

I can’t quote it exactly, but apparently one of the things that Pope Benedict XVI told the bishops during his visit to the U.S. was that they should be open enough to embrace the new things in the Church, but not so open that the embrace the bad things, too. The quote was in Bishop Doran’s weekly article in our diocescan newspaper.

So it sounds to me like our Holy Father is not getting ready to forbid LifeTeen Mass at all. Until he does, it’s here to stay, and I think people ought to stop ragging about something that the Church has declared “good.” Certainly work to correct real abuses, but don’t throw out the whole LifeTeen Mass just because you don’t like the music. In our parish, LifeTeen Mass is absolutely packed, standing room only, including hundreds of teenagers along with many people over 50. Obviously someone likes the music!

I know that some teenagers don’t like LifeTeen and that’s OK. But don’t try to use your personal dislike to prove that LifeTeen isn’t popular among teens. You are not all teens. A lot of teens in our parish seem to love it. And yes, we are seeing a surplus of vocations from our diocese, including from our parish, so LifeTeen is obviously not destroying Catholicism, but building it up.

 

[Jean_Anthony]

Please don’t make personal accusations, people. Stick to the topic and be civil. No matter how strongly any of you feel about a topic, do discuss it charitably. Thank you, everyone.

 

[benedictgal]

The central issue here is that it revolves around “applause”, and this just happened to occur at a LifeTeen Mass. The context under which the applause occured was not suitable, at all, for the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, whether this was under the auspices of LifeTeen, the Neocats, or any other group.

The reason why there is reaction to this happening during a LifeTeen Mass is because, like it or not, this particular liturgy has had its share of problems to the extent that Rome had to intervene. Adding applause to the mix just compounds the situation.

Now, I don’t think anyone here has ever had any qualms about the doctinal issues concerning LifeTeen. Certainly Rome has never made any statements to that effect. However, the problems lie where the celebration of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is concerned. While LifeTeen was told that it could not have the kids around the altar, why are many people in the various threads reporting that this is still being done? If the music was deemed as a shadow by the Synod Fathers in 2005, why has nothing been done about it?

The Neocatechumenal Movement’s teachings are not at odds with the Church. Like LifeTeen, they are a movement within the Church. However, like LifeTeen, their liturgical practices have been called into question, most recently by Pope Benedict XVI in 2005. Having been to both types of Masses, I can certainly see why there is concern.

The teachings of these movements are not challenged. I certainly don’t have any issues with them. You need to separate these two factors. The big bone of contention centers around their handling of the Mass.

Applauding during the LifeTeen Mass just adds more salt to an already festering problem.

 

[ethelzguy]

Applauding during the LifeTeen Mass just adds more salt to an already festering problem.

On this, we agree. I wholeheartedly endorse Life Teen, as I’ve seen what it’s done within our parish. And, I was unaware of any other issues with Life Teen until I came to this forum.

Applause is common in many parishes, and has nothing to do with Life Teen. I can assure you, that at our parish, there will be applause-a-plenty this coming Sunday at all Masses, as the pastor will give his usual Mothers’ Day blessing.

 

[Cat]

Applause is just a way for large groups to corporately say “thank you, we love you and appreciate you.”

There is nothing wrong with that, even during the Sacrifice of Our Lord. I think that such displays of love towards our brothers and sisters help to ease His suffering.

He Himself praised the leper for returning to say thank you. He said that others will know Him because of the love of Christians for one another.

If the priest is OK with it, it is not our place to criticize.

 

[pray4peace]

Our pastor makes announcements after the Mass(not teen) and blessings, and then we applause, if need be, but no standing.

I would ask the priest if he would consider moving announcements to after the Mass.

Blessings

 

[benedictgal]

Applause is just a way for large groups to corporately say “thank you, we love you and appreciate you.”

There is nothing wrong with that, even during the Sacrifice of Our Lord. I think that such displays of love towards our brothers and sisters help to ease His suffering.

He Himself praised the leper for returning to say thank you. He said that others will know Him because of the love of Christians for one another.

If the priest is OK with it, it is not our place to criticize.

However, such activity is best done outside of the confines of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Clapping for someone’s achievements places too much emphasis on the horizontal. The Mass is not about us; it is about adoring God. Furthermore, the example given in the above quoted statement did not even occur during a liturgical acitivity. Yes, Jesus was certainly pleased with what the Samaritan who was cured did; however, this did not occur within a liturgical context.

Yes, others will know the Christian identity by the love shown for one another; however, remember that the greatest of all of the Commandments is to love God, first and foremost. Loving means offering him the tribute, adoration and worship that is due to Him. You mess that up and you’ve completely lost the picture.

Perhaps Francis Cardinal Arinze said it best during a 2003 address before a liturgical conference when he noted that:

The primary direction of liturgical worship is vertical. We want to adore God, praise Him and thank Him. We want to celebrate the mysteries of Christ our Savior. ***All participants in the liturgy should watch out for, and avoid temptations to draw attention to oneself. ***The priest who preaches, the choir that leads the singing and the reader who proclaims a lesson, should not attract attention to themselves.

***We come to Mass and other liturgical celebrations to adore God, not to entertain one another. All forms of horizontalization, making a show, or amusing the congregation should be avoided. ***For the same reason, it is not easy to produce a dance which will respect the vertical dimension of liturgical worship. The parish hall is available after Mass for mutual entertainment.

The problem is that when we introduce such elements into the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, we have pretty much replaced God as the focus and have made ourselves the center of attention, especially when we are doing something that is best left to an activity that should happen at the parish hall.

 

[ethelzguy]

Again, we have the use of the OPINION or musings of a given Priest, Bishop, or Cardinal…being presented as Official Church Teaching, which it is not.

Because Cardinal Arinze shares his opinion at a conference does not make his musings Church Dogma, Doctorine, or Discipline, nor are parish priests obligated to follow said opinions.

 

[Bovillus]

Clapping is the VERY LEAST of the problems in the Church today. I, for one, am more upset over the approximately 70% of “Catholics” who do not believe in the Real Presence.

We hear such figures tossed around, I would like to see where this is cited from.

 

[benedictgal]

Again, we have the use of the OPINION or musings of a given Priest, Bishop, or Cardinal…being presented as Official Church Teaching, which it is not.

Because Cardinal Arinze shares his opinion at a conference does not make his musings Church Dogma, Doctorine, or Discipline, nor are parish priests obligated to follow said opinions.

I would say, though, that this just isn’t any Cardinal that has issued an opinion. He is the Prefect for the Congregaton for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments. In other words, ethelzguy, he is the Holy See’s point man on the liturgy.

Inasmuch as this you state this is his opinion, it is something that is also held by the Holy See. He presented these remarks during an address at a liturgical conference in 2003 where he was invited to speak in his capacity as Prefect.

Furthermore, the issue of over-horizontalism is a very big concern in the Church. Even Pope Benedict has brought that up several times.

Clapping for reasons such as that listed in the OP (or, as Cardinal Arinze, for the choir) is actually an off-shoot of our disregard for anything solemn as far as the Mass is concerned. We are focusing more on ourselves than on Christ. It is in fact a sad confirmation that perhaps we don’t take the Real Presence very seriously at all.

 

[ethelzguy]

I would say, though, that this just isn’t any Cardinal that has issued an opinion. He is the Prefect for the Congregaton for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments. In other words, ethelzguy, he is the Holy See’s point man on the liturgy.

Inasmuch as this you state this is his opinion, it is something that is also held by the Holy See. He presented these remarks during an address at a liturgical conference in 2003 where he was invited to speak in his capacity as Prefect.

Furthermore, the issue of over-horizontalism is a very big concern in the Church. Even Pope Benedict has brought that up several times.

Clapping for reasons such as that listed in the OP (or, as Cardinal Arinze, for the choir) is actually an off-shoot of our disregard for anything solemn as far as the Mass is concerned. We are focusing more on ourselves than on Christ. It is in fact a sad confirmation that perhaps we don’t take the Real Presence very seriously at all.

This is where it gets interesting. Some like to pick and choose using these “opinions” when it suits their argument. Yet the same people hit the ceiling when Bishops and Priests implemented their opinions, post Vatican II, hooting and hollaring “abuse, abuse”.

You can’t have it both ways…either opinions are binding on the faithful as Church Law, or they aren’t. If Cardinal Arinze’ opinions are binding on the faithful, then so is are the opinions of the Bishops who allowed/ordered the removal of Communion rails.

Which is it?

 

[benedictgal]

This is where it gets interesting. Some like to pick and choose using these “opinions” when it suits their argument. Yet the same people hit the ceiling when Bishops and Priests implemented their opinions, post Vatican II, hooting and hollaring “abuse, abuse”.

You can’t have it both ways…either opinions are binding on the faithful as Church Law, or they aren’t. If Cardinal Arinze’ opinions are binding on the faithful, then so is are the opinions of the Bishops who allowed/ordered the removal of Communion rails.

Which is it?

Actually, Cardinal Arinze has been very consistent with Church liturgical norms and guidelines. He speaks with a great deal of authority because his congregation governs the Universal Church. No one is picking and choosing here.

Furthermore, because the local Ordinary and/or the Metropolitan serves as the Chief Liturgical Steward of his diocese, he is responsible for ensuring that the faithful have the right to have the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass celebrated according to the norms and rubrics of the Church. Clapping for the reason listed in the OP (and in the example given by Cardinal Arinze) is not a rubric. The only time that the faithful clap during the Mass is to give their ascent to a candidate presented for ordination (diaconate, presbyterial or episcopal) or when they are giving their ascent to have their own diocese erected.

The bishops and cardinalls to which you refer speak to their own diocese and not to the universl Church. However, there have been instances when their statements and directives have been overruled by Rome.

 

[ethelzguy]

Actually, Cardinal Arinze has been very consistent with Church liturgical norms and guidelines. He speaks with a great deal of authority because his congregation governs the Universal Church. No one is picking and choosing here.

Furthermore, because the local Ordinary and/or the Metropolitan serves as the Chief Liturgical Steward of his diocese, he is responsible for ensuring that the faithful have the right to have the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass celebrated according to the norms and rubrics of the Church. Clapping for the reason listed in the OP (and in the example given by Cardinal Arinze) is not a rubric. The only time that the faithful clap during the Mass is to give their ascent to a candidate presented for ordination (diaconate, presbyterial or episcopal) or when they are giving their ascent to have their own diocese erected.

The bishops and cardinalls to which you refer speak to their own diocese and not to the universl Church. However, there have been instances when their statements and directives have been overruled by Rome.

Do the rubrics PROHIBIT such?

 

[benedictgal]

Do the rubrics PROHIBIT such?

While the rubrics don’t explicitly mention this, it has always been understood that this isn’t supposed to happen. Why would the Prefect of the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments (and, the Secretary of that same Congregation) and the Holy Father make statements indicating that this shouldn’t be done?

The rubrics were not meant to cover every single thing. A lot of it has to do with a strong theological understanding of what happens at the Mass. Certainly there weren’t any rubrics regarding clapping in the Traditional Latin Mass. Common sense told you that you just don’t do that sort of thing.

The problem is that people think that they can insert whatever they please towards the end of Mass when it is better suited for an activity apart form the Liturgy. I trust the judgments of Cardinal Arinze and Pope Benedict XVI on this (and other liturgical matters). Even though some may discount them as opinions, they come from the two highest authorities in the Church’s liturgy.