When the Pope dresses like a King...

[Windmill]

Maybe, but the US has a budget deficit, whereas the Holy See does not.

It hasn’t always been that way. The Vatican’s budget deficit was around $58 Million in 1988. Only until recently have they gotten this under control.

 

[Lepanto]

It hasn’t always been that way. The Vatican’s budget deficit was around $58 Million in 1988. Only until recently have they gotten this under control.

So much of the Church’s material goods were donated it probably wouldn’t matter.

Besides, vestments, etc. are a “cost of doing business” just like the Church buildings.

 

[benedictgal]

Digitionomy, I deserve that and I double that . Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa. Blame it on the dachshund at my feet who inisisted that I rub her belly. I meant his predecessors!!!

Sorry:blush: !

 

[hasikelee]

Someone wrote to our newspaper today and I do not know the proper rebuttal. Here is what he wrote:

*His clothing is made from the finest materials, emblazed with gold thread worth thousands of dollars. His one-of-a-kind gold ring, the size of a small egg, is worth tens of thousands. A golden shepherd’s crook, inlaid with many precious gems, handcrafted by the world’s finest jewelers, is worth millions. Being told by his Holiness Pope Benedict XVI, the Vicar of Christ, to avoid materialism in one of his recent encyclicals: priceless. *

What would be your defense for the Pope?

I only have my personal experience to relate:

An anti-Catholic coworker asked me one day why our churches are so adorned and why we spend so much money on them. She made a comment about Catholics not helping the poor.

I asked her, “How much did you pay for your 07 Honda?”
She said, “I paid 24K.”
So I asked, “Why didn’t you just donate 24K to poor people?”

I got silence, but also a thoughtful look.

 

[Tim_Kirchoff]

I only have my personal experience to relate:

An anti-Catholic coworker asked me one day why our churches are so adorned and why we spend so much money on them. She made a comment about Catholics not helping the poor.

I asked her, “How much did you pay for your 07 Honda?”
She said, “I paid 24K.”
So I asked, “Why didn’t you just donate 24K to poor people?”

I got silence, but also a thoughtful look.

 

[peregrinus_sg]

When the woman anointed Jesus with pure nard, and Judas complained that the money could have been better spent for the poor, didn’t Jesus say: you will always have the poor, but you will not always have me?

The finery offered to God in Religious Art, Church Architecture, Liturgical Vessels and Books, Vestments etc also inspires us to raise our thoughts to the One who is all Holy, Truth and Beauty. thus enriching our human poverty of the vision of God’s glory.

 

[johnnykins]

Someone wrote to our newspaper today and I do not know the proper rebuttal. Here is what he wrote:

*His clothing is made from the finest materials, emblazed with gold thread worth thousands of dollars.*I doubt that the clothes he owns are - though the Church’s vestments are.

His one-of-a-kind gold ring, the size of a small egg, is worth tens of thousands.

 

[RandA]

I believe that the “wealth” of the Vatican is not personal to the Pope. The property belongs to the Church, and not the Pope. The property that belongs to the Church is not squandered or spent on “material” goods, in the modern sense of the word. Rather, it is used to bring the Word of God to people around the world and to carry out earthly charity around the world. Also very important - the “wealth” of the Vatican is not of benefit only to Catholics… I would ask this person if they’ve ever seen or heard of the Vatican Museum or the Vatican Library … the Vatican is the keeper and protector of a great deal of the cultural and social patrimony (art, literature, maps, sculptures, music, etc.) of Europe. An important task.

 

[pprimeau1976]

It hasn’t always been that way. The Vatican’s budget deficit was around $58 Million in 1988. Only until recently have they gotten this under control.

Under the direction of Detroit’s Cardinal Czoka, I might add.

What the person described by the OP forgets is that God does not shun regality when it exists for His glory. Any reading of Exodus 28 will show you this:

"From among the Israelites have your brother Aaron, together with his sons Nadab, Abihu, Eleazar and Ithamar, brought to you, that they may be my priests.

For the glorious adornment of your brother Aaron you shall have sacred vestments made.

Therefore, to the various expert workmen whom I have endowed with skill, you shall give instructions to make such vestments for Aaron as will set him apart for his sacred service as my priest.

These are the vestments they shall make: a breastpiece, an ephod, a robe, a brocaded tunic, a miter and a sash. In making these sacred vestments which your brother Aaron and his sons are to wear in serving as my priests,

they shall use gold, violet, purple and scarlet yarn and fine linen.

"The ephod they shall make of gold thread and of violet, purple and scarlet yarn, embroidered on cloth of fine linen twined.

It shall have a pair of shoulder straps joined to its two upper ends.

The embroidered belt of the ephod shall extend out from it and, like it, be made of gold thread, of violet, purple and scarlet yarn, and of fine linen twined.

"Get two onyx stones and engrave on them the names of the sons of Israel:

six of their names on one stone, and the other six on the other stone, in the order of their birth.

As a gem-cutter engraves a seal, so shall you have the two stones engraved with the names of the sons of Israel and then mounted in gold filigree work.

Set these two stones on the shoulder straps of the ephod as memorial stones of the sons of Israel. Thus Aaron shall bear their names on his shoulders as a reminder before the LORD.

Make filigree rosettes of gold,

as well as two chains of pure gold, twisted like cords, and fasten the cordlike chains to the filigree rosettes.

"The breastpiece of decision you shall also have made, embroidered like the ephod with gold thread and violet, purple and scarlet yarn on cloth of fine linen twined.

It is to be square when folded double, a span high and a span wide.

On it you shall mount four rows of precious stones: in the first row, a carnelian, a topaz and an emerald;

in the second row, a garnet, a sapphire and a beryl;

in the third row, a jacinth, an agate and an amethyst;

in the fourth row, a chrysolite, an onyx and a jasper. These stones are to be mounted in gold filigree work,

twelve of them to match the names of the sons of Israel, each stone engraved like a seal with the name of one of the twelve tribes.

"When the chains of pure gold, twisted like cords, have been made for the breastpiece,
you shall then make two rings of gold for it and fasten them to the two upper ends of the breastpiece.

The gold cords are then to be fastened to the two rings at the upper ends of the breastpiece,

the other two ends of the cords being fastened in front to the two filigree rosettes which are attached to the shoulder straps of the ephod.

Make two other rings of gold and put them on the two lower ends of the breastpiece, on its edge that faces the ephod.

Then make two more rings of gold and fasten them to the bottom of the shoulder straps next to where they join the ephod in front, just above its embroidered belt.

Violet ribbons shall bind the rings of the breastpiece to the rings of the ephod, so that the breastpiece will stay right above the embroidered belt of the ephod and not swing loose from it.

"Whenever Aaron enters the sanctuary, he will thus bear the names of the sons of Israel on the breastpiece of decision over his heart as a constant reminder before the LORD.

 

[DL82]

So does the President earn the same as the average blue collar worker? No.

Do we begrudge doctors earning a high salary for saving lives? No.

The Pope doesn’t even earn a salary. Everything he has he has as a gift or on loan. The whole Vatican Curia operates on a smaller budget than the average local Borough Council here in the UK.

All value is symbolic. Gold has few practical uses, gold jewellery is only of value for either its’ beauty or what it can be exchanged for. Materialism sees everything as having an exchange value. The Church, by not selling or even putting an estimated value on these goods, shows that it cares about the beauty of these objects and their ability to raise the mind above material things, rather than focussing on their exchange value as a sign of wealth.

 

[Just_1_hr_a_wk]

So does the President earn the same as the average blue collar worker? No.

Do we begrudge doctors earning a high salary for saving lives? No.

The Pope doesn’t even earn a salary. Everything he has he has as a gift or on loan. The whole Vatican Curia operates on a smaller budget than the average local Borough Council here in the UK.

All value is symbolic. Gold has few practical uses, gold jewellery is only of value for either its’ beauty or what it can be exchanged for. Materialism sees everything as having an exchange value. The Church, by not selling or even putting an estimated value on these goods, shows that it cares about the beauty of these objects and their ability to raise the mind above material things, rather than focussing on their exchange value as a sign of wealth.

It is the symbolism that is what gets problematic.

Did Jesus ever say “Sell all you have (well except liturgical gear and get ups) and follow me”?

 

[benedictgal]

It is the symbolism that is what gets problematic.

Did Jesus ever say “Sell all you have (well except liturgical gear and get ups) and follow me”?

However, re-read pripremau’s post. God was very specific as to how liturgical ministers were to be vested. This was a foreshadowing of the perpetual sacrifice that would come later in Jesus Christ.

It is also remiscent of our offering our 'first fruits" to God. There is a strong tradition that dates back to the time of Moses for gold to be used in worship. It is part of the sacrificial element. The problem is that when you remove the sacrificial element from Catholic worship, all you get is a word service with music.

Remember, that as Catholics, our liturgy involves something very out of the ordinary. That’s why you don’t see our priests and bishipos wearing shirts and ties while they celebrate Mass. That is why they use liturgical vestments.

 

[pete_29]

It is the symbolism that is what gets problematic.

Did Jesus ever say “Sell all you have (well except liturgical gear and get ups) and follow me”?

Good Advice. You should take it.

 

[Just_1_hr_a_wk]

However, re-read pripremau’s post. God was very specific as to how liturgical ministers were to be vested. This was a foreshadowing of the perpetual sacrifice that would come later in Jesus Christ.

It is also remiscent of our offering our 'first fruits" to God. There is a strong tradition that dates back to the time of Moses for gold to be used in worship. It is part of the sacrificial element. The problem is that when you remove the sacrificial element from Catholic worship, all you get is a word service with music.

Remember, that as Catholics, our liturgy involves something very out of the ordinary. That’s why you don’t see our priests and bishipos wearing shirts and ties while they celebrate Mass. That is why they use liturgical vestments.

Are there resources to show how this was carried on in the early church?

 

[mschrank]

If all the fine art and vestments in the Vatican were to be sold for cash and the money given to the poor for food, every poor person in the world could eat…one meal. Then, they’d still be starving.

Most of the art in the Vatican (and I include the vestments that are “hand-me-downs”) was created by artists who wanted to inspire Christians to contemplate eternal things. They realized that, as corporate beings, our bodies as well as our souls, needed to be prompted during sacred worship. The paintings of biblical scenes, the ornate architecture, the elaborate vestments are not there for the benefit of the celebrant, but of the worshippers. When you see a beautiful chasuble whose beauty (and price) are incalculable, you are reminded of the unquantifiable glory of Almighty God. When you hear beautiful music that the Vatican choir director has been paid an arm and a leg to organize and perform, your thoughts are raised to heavenly things.

We Americans tend to fall into the Calvinistic error of “Total Depravity” whereby all matter and human thought is completely incapable of enriching worship, theology, sanctification, etc… Don’t fall into the trap of feeling embarrassed about regality. Those Catholics who made those vestments, buildings, pieces of art, etc… did it to inspire. They’d be horrified if their works were reduced to a dollar amount and sold off to museums. Then, their purpose would be completely eliminated.

Thank you windmill! Why is the concept of the sublime and sacred so hard for some people to get?

 

[pprimeau1976]

It is the symbolism that is what gets problematic.

Did Jesus ever say “Sell all you have (well except liturgical gear and get ups) and follow me”?

Well, not in those exact words. We do know that he made exceptions. For example, Jesus didn’t seem to mind when he was being anointed with special oils. According to Mark 14, the oil was equal to over 300 days wages. Yet, he never saw it as being wasted on him.

 

[chrisb]

If all the fine art and vestments in the Vatican were to be sold for cash and the money given to the poor for food, every poor person in the world could eat…one meal. Then, they’d still be starving.

Most of the art in the Vatican (and I include the vestments that are “hand-me-downs”) was created by artists who wanted to inspire Christians to contemplate eternal things. They realized that, as corporate beings, our bodies as well as our souls, needed to be prompted during sacred worship. The paintings of biblical scenes, the ornate architecture, the elaborate vestments are not there for the benefit of the celebrant, but of the worshippers. When you see a beautiful chasuble whose beauty (and price) are incalculable, you are reminded of the unquantifiable glory of Almighty God. When you hear beautiful music that the Vatican choir director has been paid an arm and a leg to organize and perform, your thoughts are raised to heavenly things.

We Americans tend to fall into the Calvinistic error of “Total Depravity” whereby all matter and human thought is completely incapable of enriching worship, theology, sanctification, etc… Don’t fall into the trap of feeling embarrassed about regality. Those Catholics who made those vestments, buildings, pieces of art, etc… did it to inspire. They’d be horrified if their works were reduced to a dollar amount and sold off to museums. Then, their purpose would be completely eliminated.

Windmill… you are ‘the man’!

 

[Just_1_hr_a_wk]

Well, not in those exact words. We do know that he made exceptions. For example, Jesus didn’t seem to mind when he was being anointed with special oils. According to Mark 14, the oil was equal to over 300 days wages. Yet, he never saw it as being wasted on him.

The pope is the successor of Peter.

Would Jesus have been ok with Peter being anointed with special oils?

 

[pprimeau1976]

The pope is the successor of Peter.

Would Jesus have been ok with Peter being anointed with special oils?

I think so because Jesus was not being anointed because he was God, he was being anointed because he was preparing for his death. It all depends on its use, really. St. James instructs the early Christians to be anointed with oil when they were sick:

Is any among you sick? Let him call for the elders [presbyters] of the Church and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; and the prayer of faith will save the sick man, and the Lord will raise him up; and if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven.

But back to what I said earlier about the temple priests clothing. What the high priest wore was pretty expensive. Also, the golden menorah (lampstand) and silver trumpets were pretty expensive as well. Yet, Jesus never condemned their use at all. The only person in the bible who complained about things costing too much and saying that the money should be used for the poor was Judas.

 

[Just_1_hr_a_wk]

I think so because Jesus was not being anointed because he was God, he was being anointed because he was preparing for his death. It all depends on its use, really. St. James instructs the early Christians to be anointed with oil when they were sick:
But back to what I said earlier about the temple priests clothing. What the high priest wore was pretty expensive. Also, the golden menorah (lampstand) and silver trumpets were pretty expensive as well. Yet, Jesus never condemned their use at all. The only person in the bible who complained about things costing too much and saying that the money should be used for the poor was Judas.

Are there resources that show that the early church and the apostles followed the Jewish example re vestments etc?