When the priest says "Peace be with you"

[Orionthehunter]

For those of you who considered my post, I thank you for your responses…I’m also very thankful that you are as knowledgable as you all appear to be…

I asked this question because at mass a couple of weekends ago, I overheard the parishioners behind me discussing why my family did not return the gesture to Father like most do…I wasn’t sure they were talking about us so I made an effort to focus more on the mass.

After mass, while checking the reader’s schedule, the dad came up to me (he’s an EMHC and part of the RCIA team) and told me that he found it distracting that my family didn’t extend our hands and arms like most do…I replied that I had learned not to do this from Father himself. He had nothing else to say but did roll his eyes up to high heaven and I was left wondering just how big a distraction this could really be to others…

You have to be kidding! If faced with this busy body, I fear I might have done something very unholy. However, the best response was said “I was so concentrating on the prayers of the Mass that I didn’t notice what others were or weren’t doing.”

However, this is my personal opinion. I don’t make the gesture as I don’t see the point. We augment our thoughts and words with action when it can be done for emphasis for the person with whom we are communicating or is necessary for the thought/word. I don’t think the Priest feels our prayer of Peace to be with the Priest any more profoundly w/ the gesture.

At the same time, I don’t think there is any harm done. It is a personal gesture that doesn’t require the participation of others, isn’t so profound as to be distracting (ala standing on the pew), is consistent with gestures made in our culture, and is similar to those who instinctively bring their hands together when they say “Amen.”

 

[SuscipeMeDomine]

This is an awesome priest; I have read his comments before. He addresses these issues clearly (hand gestures, etc.), which is the point I made previously on another post about hand holding during the Our Father. He says plainly that innovations should not be introduced. Someone jumped all over me, as if to say, why not! A holy priest says so!

I’m not sure I’d go along with the idea that “innovations should not be introduced.” Some things just don’t matter that much.

I don’t personally hold my hands out while saying “and also with you,” but it doesn’t hurt anyone if someone does. If it makes them happy or makes them feel more a part of the Mass, then why should I care?

A number of pious gestures get introduced in the Mass. Some people make the Sign of the Cross during the Penitential Rite. This isn’t called for (I think it was used in the Tridentine Mass) but it doesn’t hurt anything if they do it.

Similarly, there’s nothing that says the people are supposed to cross their foreheads, lips, and chests just before the Gospel. (The priest does this, not the people.) Many people, however, make these crosses and it’s a lovely gesture.

I guess I just don’t get the fuss one way or the other.

 

[Windmill]

The hands extended when the priest says, “The Lord be with you,” is a presidential, liturgical gesture. The response of the people in kind (with arms extended) implicitly blurs the distinction between priest and lay and it also reduces the gesture to a certain level of banality. The people aren’t consciously thinking this, but the action itself bespeaks an egalitarianism and aritualism that, frankly, does not belong in Catholic liturgy. So, while they don’t intend anything bad, the actions convey certain ideas - regardless of intent.

As far as the sign of the cross at the penitential rite, this is a habit that was carried over from the Tridentine Mass. The Indulgentiam prayer, which followed the penitential rite in the Tridentine Mass, started with the sign of the cross. In the old Mass, people would cross themselves at the end of the penitential rite in anticipation of the Indulgentiam. However, this prayer was removed at Vatican II because the clergy was growing increasingly concerned that the faithful were starting to believe that this prayer absolved from serious sin (which it doesn’t, confession is for that). In the current Mass, there is no Indulgentiam, so there should be no sign of the Cross.

I used to get annoyed by these little liturgical actions not being followed. So I wrote out a liturgical guide for the men’s Gregorain chant schola I am in, and that sort of got it all out of my system. The schola tends to be high profile at Mass since we are in cassock and surplice, so the uniformity of our actions teaches people what is and what is not to be done.

In the end, these are minor things. The important thing is not to let things get to where it is causing scandal (example, laypeople thinking they are no different from a priest, ontologically).

 

[vagranted]

I notice very few people using any hand gestures when saying “and also with you.” And if they do, their left hand is up against their chest and they kinda bow and turn their right hand palm side up. (I only notice because it’s a huge movement to make all at the same time. Kind of distracting )

I usually make a small nod and half-close my eyes while saying the response.

 

[Petergee]

The hands extended when the priest says, “The Lord be with you,” is a presidential, liturgical gesture. The response of the people in kind (with arms extended) implicitly blurs the distinction between priest and lay and it also reduces the gesture to a certain level of banality. The people aren’t consciously thinking this, but the action itself bespeaks an egalitarianism and aritualism that, frankly, does not belong in Catholic liturgy. So, while they don’t intend anything bad, the actions convey certain ideas - regardless of intent.
…
I used to get annoyed by these little liturgical actions not being followed. So I wrote out a liturgical guide for the men’s Gregorain chant schola I am in, and that sort of got it all out of my system.

“The Lord Be With You” is NOT a secular greeting (How ya doin’?), it’s a liturgical, sacred greeting. The priest’s accompanying gesture – his hands outstretched - is a “priestly” action and, therefore, it is improper for the lay faithful to respond with the same gesture. Hands should remain folded during the response, “And Also with You.”

Unfortunately our priest tends to encourage this “warm/social/human” aspect by replying to “And also with you” with a warm “Thank you!” delivered with a big smile and nod of the head to all. Followed by “Now take as much time as you need, and offer each other a gift of peace.”

I’m especially iffy about his implication that rather than sharing “the peace of the Lord” which He has given us, we are giving each other a gift from ourselves. But he is such an energetic and warm “people person” who has done so much for our parish in the shhort time he has been here that I don’t like to bring it up with him. (He also makes quite a few other relatively minor but annoying idiosyncratic changes to the text of the Mass, apparently he thinks they make it more relevant or comprehensible or contemporary or “human” or something.)

On a related subject, many priests when giving someone a blessing of some kind during Mass (eg commissioning new EMHCs, or presenting the children who are in the sacramental preparation classes), invite all the congregation to extend their hands towards the person in a gesture of blessing whilst the priest says the blessing. I’ve always felt a bit weird doing this. Also they don’t say “use your right hand” and many people use their left or both hands. Is this OK?

 

[Sabda]

What are you supposed to do with your hands? I keep them in a prayer position and bow to the priest every time he says this. This is what I was taught…others respond back to the priest with open arms (just the way the priest does)…

I was told that we aren’t supposed to do this because only a priest can bestow this wish of peace upon us and to return the gesture in like manner is incorrect, perhaps even rude…has any gesture at this moment during the mass always been present (other than responding "And also with you…?)

How is this done in the TLM? Can anyone tell me where this is in print?

I keep my hands down at my sides to myself. When I was growing up I never saw any of this stuff. We attended two different parishes at different times too. When I was teen I fell away. I came back in my mid twenties and noticed we had all this hand action going on?
I’ll I’m going to say is if you want to do this with your own family fine but please, please, please do not try and make the person next you do it.

We have a person in our parish who sits in front of us a lot of times and has almost gotten in a power struggle trying to hold hands with my 7 yr old dd (when dd does NOT want to hold hands). It is VERY distracting!

 

[4HisChurch]

For those of you who considered my post, I thank you for your responses…I’m also very thankful that you are as knowledgable as you all appear to be…

I asked this question because at mass a couple of weekends ago, I overheard the parishioners behind me discussing why my family did not return the gesture to Father like most do…I wasn’t sure they were talking about us so I made an effort to focus more on the mass.

After mass, while checking the reader’s schedule, the dad came up to me (he’s an EMHC and part of the RCIA team) and told me that he found it distracting that my family didn’t extend our hands and arms like most do…I replied that I had learned not to do this from Father himself. He had nothing else to say but did roll his eyes up to high heaven and I was left wondering just how big a distraction this could really be to others…

Because your family doesn’t follow the clerical-lay blurring innovation of extending your hands like the priest, *you *are distracting him?!?! Wow. Keep doing what you are doing and pray for that parish.

 

[b_justb]

Since this thread is about hand gestures in the mass, I’d like to ask about:

C: Lift up your hearts
R: We lift them up to the Lord.
C: Let us give thanks to the Lord our God.
R: It is right to give him thanks and praise.

Is it also not appropriate to raise your hands here? (Next to the moment of consecration this is my favorite part of the Mass, and I am a hand raiser I do admit; in case you all were keeping notes on my favorite stuff and all )

 

[Windmill]

The priest is acting in persona Christi. When he holds his hands out while saying, “The Lord be with you,” he is not simply being nice. He is performing a liturgical action in his role as presider.

Note, a Deacon (who is properly trained) will not raise his hands at the Gospel when he says, “The Lord be with you” because it is a priestly gesture. If even an ordained deacon doesn’t normally do this (he can as presider in a communion service, but that’s rare), why should a layman be doing it at Mass?

The hand raising during “We lift them up to the Lord” came about simply because people were mimicking the priests subsequent gestures as well. Same thing. This gesture is for the presider. Besides, it does look silly if you think about it.

 

[b_justb]

Windmill:

The hand raising during “We lift them up to the Lord” came about simply because people were mimicking the priests subsequent gestures as well. Same thing. This gesture is for the presider. Besides, it does look silly if you think about it.

I have to disagree with this part of your post. The lifting of the hands during this portion of the Christian Liturgy goes back to the first century. It is from the Liturgy of St. James the Less Bishop of Jerusalem and host of the very first Christian Synod. That’s what makes it my favorite part of the mass next to the consecration because it if from the very beginning of Christian history. The congregants raised their hands here. But now it’s deemed inappropriate?

 

[Windmill]

I’m not trying to be confrontational, and I appreciate your candor in chatting about these things But I have to ask, “Where in the GIRM does it talk about raising hands at the 'habemus ad dominum’ coming from this older liturgy?” Your explanation makes it sound like this is something that is official. The more likely explanation is that this is a Charismatic Catholic justification for something that is nowhere prescribed in the books. This is the Roman Rite, and there are many rites out there. Importing elements of other rites into our rite is no where justified.

This is a problem with many things that are done in liturgy today. People do things because they want to “improve” the liturgy, then they find some reason to make their novelties look authentic. I don’t think there is any ill will on the part of those who introduced these gestures, but it starts to twist the fact that liturgy is the property of Holy Mother Church, and not our private hobby horse with which we may mix-and-match whatever we want. You don’t sound like someone who approaches liturgy as flippantly as this, but it would be good to question the sources that gave you this information. Ask them how they can justify mixing the Roman Missal with actions foreign to that rite.

 

[b_justb]

I’m not trying to be confrontational, and I appreciate your candor in chatting about these things But I have to ask, “Where in the GIRM does it talk about raising hands at the ‘habemus ad dominum’ coming from this older liturgy?” Your explanation makes it sound like this is something that is prescribed. The more likely explanation is that this is a Charismatic Catholic justification for something that is nowhere prescribed in the books. This is the Roman Rite, and there are many rites out there. Importing elements of other rites into our rite is no where justified.

This is a problem with many things that are done in liturgy today. People do things because they want to “improve” the liturgy, then they find some reason to make their novelties look authentic. I don’t think there is any ill will on the part of those who introduced these gestures, but it starts to twist the fact that liturgy is the property of Holy Mother Church, and not our private hobby horse.

1 Tim 2:8 I desire then that in every place the men should pray, lifting holy hands without anger or quarreling;

This practice of lifting hands in prayer is from the Jewish tradition. The prescription in the Liturgy of St. James is showing that it was done, not necessarily that it was ordered to be done. This has nothing whatsoever to do with neither the Charismatic Renew efforts; nor anything to do with people making the mass their hobby. It has to do with personal piety and devotion. I can understand the point of not being a distraction to other people and even the idea of unity. But I think some people look at what everyone else is doing or not doing at Mass instead of paying attention to the Mass and their own actions of piety and devotion. This particular forum lends itself to the ideas that if anyone moves a muscle out of sync with the poster then they are some sort of personality that should be flogged, hung, drawn, and quartered and right now less any other abuses follow. I don’t understand where that comes from. I hardly ever post here because it is so volatile, which is so odd since it’s supposed to be about the sacraments.

A Sacrament is supposed to impart grace, yet this forum is the most unengraciating one I find here.

If we attend Mass and receive the Blessed Sacrament, why doesn’t that grace we receive then manifest itself in our behavior, attitudes, and speech (writing)? What’s the point of receiving Christ if we don’t allow His light to shine out from us?

 

[Windmill]

b_justb

I hear what you are saying, and I understand the point you are making. I would recommend reading Ratzinger’s Spirit of the Liturgy. It contains great wisdom as to how we should approach liturgy.

I am not trying to question your faith or your loyalty to the Church. I am merely trying to have a gentlmanly debate on the justification for, what I see, as a distracting novelty.

Let me give you an extreme example of what I mean.

I went on a pilgrimage to Europe with two buddies of mine. We went to Fatima, Lourdes, Paris, Florence, and Rome (I highly recommend this type of pilgrimage, BTW). When we went to Paris, we were sure to go to Mass at Notre Dame Cathedral. The Mass was in the apse way in the back and was in a very cozy nook. Mass proceeded as normal, but in French, so we couldn’t understand the words. We sat down for the homily, and the priest began talking in French. About a minute into the homily, this guy stands up, bows, and sits down. Everyone sees him, and then tries to return their attention to the priest. A few minutes later, he stands up again, bows, and then sits down. This went on for the whole homily. This happened a few more times later in the Mass, too, while we were sitting or kneeling. After some reflection, I realized what was happening. The rubrics in the Mass call for a slight head bow at the name of “Jesus”, “Mary”, “The Holy Trinity”, or “The saint of the day” during the formal prayers of the Mass. This guy was doing it every single time these names were said at all, and he was standing up to do it. Now, if I had approached the man after Mass and asked him (assuming I knew French, of course) why he did this, he could easily claim that it was out of personal piety. However, when his gestures draw attention away from the sanctuary an onto himself, they are no longer private.

It’s an extreme example, but nonetheless, entertaining.

I just feel that this gesture of raising hands is distracting and, since it mimics priestly gestures, it blurs the lay/ordained distinction.

 

[txangel]

**Ministers in Action **
**Six-year-old Angie and her four-year-old brother Joel were sitting together in church. Joel giggled, sang, and talked out loud. Finally, his big sister had had enough. **
**“You’re not supposed to talk (and especially out loud) in church.” **
**“Why? Who’s going to stop me?” Joel asked. **
**Angie pointed to the back of the church and said, **
**“See those two men standing by the door? **
**They’re hushers.” **

how’s that for a joke…

That’s really cute AnnieMart. And like you, I keep my hands folded in prayer, make a bow with my head toward the priest and say “and also with you.” This is how I was taught in the “olden days”, and as the rubrics state, the laity is not to use the orans position. There a lots of people in my parish who do this and I’ve gotten upset in the past over things like this, but you know…I finally decided that who am I that I should act indignant about how someone prays or responds. There are far too many more important issues facing Holy Mother Church for us to get caught up in these very minor infractions.

Oh, by the way… I read the Church documents, too,

 

[JimG]

In any case, the correct translation of “et cum spiritu tuo” is “and with thy spirit,” not “and also with you.” I understand that the current translation will be replaced sometime in the near future, to more closely correspond to the Latin.