When they know better than God

[holyrood]

I have a close friend who believes greatly in honor, integrity, honesty, living peacefully, treating people with respect, helping others…a great many good virtues and qualities.

He also believes in, defends, and supports any and every liberal social agenda: abortion, ‘gay marriage,’ open marriage, swinging, legalized drugs and prostitution, and probably more that don’t jump to mind right now.

Recently, we had a discussion in which I asked, “If God Himself sat down with you, face to face, and told you these things are wrong, what would you say?” His answer was that some people will die for what they believe, and he would be willing to go to Hell for what he believes in. He would tell God something to the effect of, “These people are my friends, you’re wrong, and if you insist on saying gay sex is wrong, I’d rather spend all eternity in Hell than with you.”

I offer this partly as an insight into how some people think, and partly as a question in how others would handle such a statement.

He had just been telling me that the way I live my life has had more impact on him than anything I or anyone could ever say and that the changes he’s made as a result of knowing me have given him greater humility towards other people–yes, he said he’s far less arrogant now than he was a year ago, even as he tells me he’d inform God of what’s really right and wrong! (My response was to teasingly point that out to him.)

I mean this as no criticism of my friend or anyone who thinks like this, but am interested in responses or similar experiences when it comes to such discussions, how you respond or would respond.

 

[Scottgun]

The only response really is prayer, encouragement, good example and suffering and sacrifice. By what you describe, his is a classic case of “Concupiscence darkens the intellect”. His conscience is almost completely consumed by an evil ideology and only conversion can reverse that. All things are possible with God of course, but at this point you are at the treat-him as “an heathen and a publican to thee” stage. (Matthew 18:17)

 

[shelby_sun]

You accept him for the person he is if he is your friend, but make sure he knows how you feel about things, and than be a good example for him with how you live your life. If you feel the need to convert him you may lose him as a friend. Let God take care of him.

 

[Soren_Itenu]

Many people say, “Just give me this pleasure here on earth, let me do what I want to do, and I’ll be happy to spend eternity in Hell for it”. What they don’t understand is that the experience of Hell will work backwards through time and poison every pleasure they ever had, turning everything to pain and torture. The very ability to make the choice to sin is the God-given gift of free will. Everyone, even when he sins, has his being and reason in God. No matter how far someone tries to divorce himself from his Creator, he cannot. There is no escaping God in this world, but in Hell, the state of being which is not-God, all this is irrelevant. So, though your friend says this foolishness, he doesn’t mean it. He might say he means it, but he doesn’t, because once a soul is in Hell, he will say, “I have always been in Hell”.

 

[devoutchristian]

Prayer is really the only way to combat such abject evil.

 

[DaveBj]

. . . “Concupiscence darkens the intellect”. . .

:sad_yes:

 

[JRKH]

Without knowing you or your friend…it’s difficult to give a very clear answer.

In your friend’s defense I must say that he is obviously in favor of “free will” and liberty. These are good things - even if he is misguided.

That said…His response to your scenario seems a bit like hyperbole. He knows what you want him to say and is deliberately responding the opposite. His response isn’t really to “God” but to you - and to what he perceives to be “god”.
So - I think my response would be to ask if he is truly serious about this or if he is just trying to “get a rise out of me”.
He’ll probably say - yes he is serious…In which case I could inform him that God would be most graciously willing to comply with his request and that he would not have to be with God when he dies.
BUT - he should remember that it is his choice…Not God’s that he spend eternity in hell.

Peace
James

 

[holyrood]

You accept him for the person he is if he is your friend, but make sure he knows how you feel about things, and than be a good example for him with how you live your life.

This is exactly how things stand. He sees clearly how I live, he knows exactly what I believe, and surprisingly, he greatly admires it.

If you feel the need to convert him you may lose him as a friend. Let God take care of him.

Yes, again, this is exactly how things stand. I am continually surprised by the things he says and does, the changes he’s making, since I have not tried to convert or evangelize him. I have never felt called to. I have always felt my business is to live as God calls me, and God’s business is to use that as He sees fit. I think this is exactly the point: I believe my friend needs to know that God Himself sees and loves him exactly as who he is today, exactly where he is, and he will see that in the way Christians accept him and see good and value in him (or don’t.)

I do believe, watching events unfold, that God is calling him. Thank you for all the answers, and I do hope there will be many prayers for him and all who think the same.

 

[3DOCTORS]

Many people say, “Just give me this pleasure here on earth, let me do what I want to do, and I’ll be happy to spend eternity in Hell for it”. What they don’t understand is that the experience of Hell will work backwards through time and poison every pleasure they ever had, turning everything to pain and torture. The very ability to make the choice to sin is the God-given gift of free will. Everyone, even when he sins, has his being and reason in God. No matter how far someone tries to divorce himself from his Creator, he cannot. There is no escaping God in this world, but in Hell, the state of being which is not-God, all this is irrelevant. So, though your friend says this foolishness, he doesn’t mean it. He might say he means it, but he doesn’t, because once a soul is in Hell, he will say, “I have always been in Hell”.

I had never heard it put quite that way - so, so very true! I think back to times in my life when I was mired in sin and how even after repentance came, and confession and forgiveness, there were still little lessons of purification that God would send me every so often. For one thing, there were the interpersonal consequences and the intrapersonal consequences of my actions. Others knew what I had done, and I knew it. And if that didn’t taint memories of those times in my life by association . . . you bet it did. For example: I was in the state of mortal sin attending my Grandma’s funeral. :bighanky: It taints the memory of saying farewell to her for me, although I know I must accept God’s forgiveness, and I have even asked Grandma for forgiveness for my stupidity. And I know she would give it.

And all this is just “temporal punishment,” right? I could not begin to imagine what having to experience that taintedness for all eternity would be like. :nope: It would be beyond horrible.

To the OP: When dealing with friends like the one you mention (I have some friends with at least some of the same characteristics to some degree) one thing I do is try to get them to really reflect deeply on what they’re saying. I do so often by starting with something along the lines of, “Wow. You really mean that. I have a hard time even wrapping my mind around that. Tell me more.” Don’t be snarky or anything - simply share your honest incredulity. Follow up with “So you’d really be okay with that?” “Even if it meant . . . ?” “Even if in Hell you would have no memory of the pleasure to sustain you?” etc. And then go “Wow.” again to emphasize how strange it is to you.

You will help your friend reflect - and you will gain further insight into how he and others with similar points of view think. It may not be pretty, but it’s information that we need as we attempt to share the truth of the Gospel with others. We need to know why they think the way they do before we can begin to counter it.

 

[PJM]

=holyrood;10590241]I have a close friend who believes greatly in honor, integrity, honesty, living peacefully, treating people with respect, helping others…a great many good virtues and qualities.

He also believes in, defends, and supports any and every liberal social agenda: abortion, ‘gay marriage,’ open marriage, swinging, legalized drugs and prostitution, and probably more that don’t jump to mind right now.

Recently, we had a discussion in which I asked, “If God Himself sat down with you, face to face, and told you these things are wrong, what would you say?” His answer was that some people will die for what they believe, and he would be willing to go to Hell for what he believes in. He would tell God something to the effect of, “These people are my friends, you’re wrong, and if you insist on saying gay sex is wrong, I’d rather spend all eternity in Hell than with you.”

I offer this partly as an insight into how some people think, and partly as a question in how others would handle such a statement.

He had just been telling me that the way I live my life has had more impact on him than anything I or anyone could ever say and that the changes he’s made as a result of knowing me have given him greater humility towards other people–yes, he said he’s far less arrogant now than he was a year ago, even as he tells me he’d inform God of what’s really right and wrong! (My response was to teasingly point that out to him.)

I mean this as no criticism of my friend or anyone who thinks like this, but am interested in responses or similar experiences when it comes to such discussions, how you respond or would respond.

God cannot and WILLNOT excuse self-inflicted ignorance.

Futher, ONLY God can covert such people.

God OFFERS everyonre sufficient grace that thay could choose to know Him. A GREAT many, your friend included chhose freely to refuse it and God BECAUSE otherwise they would have to change their lifes.

Eccl. 15:18 “Before man is life and death, good and evil, that which he shall choose shall be given him”

Mt. 19:17 “One is good, God. But if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments”

Rev.2: 23 “and I will strike her children dead. And all the churches shall know that I am he who searches mind and heart, and I will give to each of you as your works deserve.”

PRAY for him /her and take care NOT to be corupted by this association.

 

[Soren_Itenu]

3DOCTORS,

The good news is that the same applies to Heaven. No matter what pain and trials and sadness we go through in this life, the experience of Heaven will work backward through your life and redeem everything and glorify God. Hence, the souls in Heaven say, “We have always been in Heaven”. Hell cannot blackmail Heaven.

 

[kkollwitz]

“I’d rather spend all eternity in Hell than with you.” That’s how people wind up there- they choose it.

 

[3DOCTORS]

I have a close friend who believes greatly in honor, integrity, honesty, living peacefully, treating people with respect, helping others…a great many good virtues and qualities.

He also believes in, defends, and supports any and every liberal social agenda: abortion, ‘gay marriage,’ open marriage, swinging, legalized drugs and prostitution, and probably more that don’t jump to mind right now.

I think I get what you’re trying to say about your friend, but if he believes the things in the 2nd paragraph are okay, he’s more paying lip service to the things in the 1st. But . . . I haven’t met him personally, so see my comment below.
. . . .

**He had just been telling me that the way I live my life has had more impact on him than anything I or anyone could ever say and that the changes he’s made as a result of knowing me have given him greater humility towards other people–yes, he said he’s far less arrogant now than he was a year ago, **even as he tells me he’d inform God of what’s really right and wrong! (My response was to teasingly point that out to him.)

I mean this as no criticism of my friend or anyone who thinks like this, but am interested in responses or similar experiences when it comes to such discussions, how you respond or would respond.

There is hope that the beginnings of a transformation are occurring and that the contradictions will get resolved as God uses you as an instrument by the way you live. Sounds like you’re doing something right, and keep praying for the friend.

 

[holyrood]

Originally Posted by holyrood
I have a close friend who believes greatly in honor, integrity, honesty, living peacefully, treating people with respect, helping others…a great many good virtues and qualities.

I’d be interested in a fuller explanation of why you say he’s only paying lip service to these values, as long as he also supports and defends the rest. Do you mean because abortion (for example) is not an honorable or peaceful action?

 

[holyrood]

“I’d rather spend all eternity in Hell than with you.” That’s how people wind up there- they choose it.

One of our early discussions, a year ago, revolved around his statement that the Catholic Church ‘sends people to Hell.’ Your statement is pretty much what I told him, that people choose Hell for themselves, and amazingly, he did change his belief on that, and will even now reference it, and say, “Now that I know the Catholic Church doesn’t send people to Hell…”

I should probably remember this if this subject comes up with him again.

 

[holyrood]

Futher, ONLY God can covert such people.

God OFFERS everyonre sufficient grace that thay could choose to know Him. A GREAT many, your friend included chhose freely to refuse it and God BECAUSE otherwise they would have to change their lifes.
…

PRAY for him /her and take care NOT to be corupted by this association.

I think you’re spot on about having to change his life, although he’s already made some profound changes. But I think the next step, which probably ties directly to his statement about preferring Hell to a God who finds fault with these activities, is that people (in general) when they change their lives, must face the *reasons *they are doing so, which in turn forces them to see how they’ve lived previously in a new light, one which might fill them with regret, remorse, and shame, one which might make them feel they’ve lived foolishly, and that is an incredibly difficult thing for most people to face.

I do believe God is calling him. The events I’m watching unfold are too completely…strange, inexplicable, unbelievable, even miraculous…to understand in any other way.

Interestingly, (regarding corruption), he has encouraged me to live my faith more deeply in all respects.

Thank you all for the many responses, and I ask for prayers for all living these lifestyles.

 

[3DOCTORS]

I’d be interested in a fuller explanation of why you say he’s only paying lip service to these values, as long as he also supports and defends the rest. Do you mean because abortion (for example) is not an honorable or peaceful action?

Yes, that was my intended meaning. However, I realize that it’s not that clear cut with this individual as he seems to be a “work in progress” and hopefully he will come to understand why things like abortion are wrong. So maybe that came across sounding harsh of me.

He’s not at the point yet where he can recognize about issues like abortion being not a good thing. The fact that he’s willing to listen to you and be attracted to the ideals you’re living out is a sign that his heart may not be hardened beyond the point of being able to come to the kind of faith you have at some point.

I hope that clarifies rather than muddles . . .

 

[holyrood]

Yes, that was my intended meaning. However, I realize that it’s not that clear cut with this individual as he seems to be a “work in progress” and hopefully he will come to understand why things like abortion are wrong. So maybe that came across sounding harsh of me.

He’s not at the point yet where he can recognize about issues like abortion being not a good thing. The fact that he’s willing to listen to you and be attracted to the ideals you’re living out is a sign that his heart may not be hardened beyond the point of being able to come to the kind of faith you have at some point.

I hope that clarifies rather than muddles . . .

Thank you, and no worries on being harsh. I didn’t take it as such, although of course, I’m not on that end of the spectrum!

I’d say he is very much a work in progress. Then of course, so am I. It is in part the very fact that someone who has lived the life he has can be so attracted to my life that stuns me and convinces me this is entirely God at work. There is no rational explanation for someone like him finding my life admirable, especially to the extent he does.

 

[PJM]

=holyrood;10598982]I think you’re spot on about having to change his life, although he’s already made some profound changes. But I think the next step, which probably ties directly to his statement about preferring Hell to a God who finds fault with these activities, is that people (in general) when they change their lives, must face the *reasons *they are doing so, which in turn forces them to see how they’ve lived previously in a new light, one which might fill them with regret, remorse, and shame, one which might make them feel they’ve lived foolishly, and that is an incredibly difficult thing for most people to face.

I do believe God is calling him. The events I’m watching unfold are too completely…strange, inexplicable, unbelievable, even miraculous…to understand in any other way.

Interestingly, (regarding corruption), he has encouraged me to live my faith more deeply in all respects.

Thank you all for the many responses, and I ask for prayers for all living these lifestyles.

Your VERY wecome friend:thumbsup:

 

[3DOCTORS]

Thank you, and no worries on being harsh. I didn’t take it as such, although of course, I’m not on that end of the spectrum!

I’d say he is very much a work in progress. Then of course, so am I. It is in part the very fact that someone who has lived the life he has can be so attracted to my life that stuns me and convinces me this is entirely God at work. There is no rational explanation for someone like him finding my life admirable, especially to the extent he does.

God’s grace - it works in mysterious ways!