When to call on a Cardinal?

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Hi all,

I have a question regarding the OF of the Mass in Latin and things that go along with it.

I attend Loyola University Chicago (a very liberal school by any measure). I am pushing to get the Latin OF said in our main campus chapel, but I’m being shut out and shut down by Campus Ministry and by the director for the chapel (a priest nonetheless). The resources are available to hold such a Mass, as the University owns all the physical materials, such as candles, altar cloths, etc. There is even a priest willing to say the Mass itself. Campus Ministry and the director of the chapel are claiming that they will not permit a Latin Mass for several reasons, but here are the two they really emphasized:
  1. Campus Ministry’s “mission” is to prepare students for liturgies they’ll see once they graduate. Since Latin is not used much in most parishes it will not be used on campus.
  2. Preference vs. Need- Those of us pushing for a Latin OF are merely preferring it; we do not need it and it therefore will not be permitted. Furthermore, there are parishes within the city of Chicago that hold a Latin Mass. They argue we should just go there and leave Loyola alone. I should note that there are at least 50-60 students interested in getting a Latin OF on campus.
Those of us pushing for the Latin OF Mass have three options going forward, so far as I can tell:
  1. Take this to the student government, get it approved by them, then come back to Campus Ministry and the director of the chapel and demand our Mass.
  2. Skip the student government and write to Cardinal George and ask for his intervention in the matter.
  3. Contact the Jesuit Superior of our province and seek his intervention (I’m not sure that would work because Jesuit’s are quite liberal).
So, when should I call on the Cardinal? Should I write to him at all or should I write to him immediately? What’s the best course of action to take here to get the OF Latin Mass on campus?
 
That’s a tough one. Since the school is run by the Jesuits and not the diocese, I don’t think Cardinal George really has much of a say in the matter.

Following the principal of subsidiarity, I would think it would be worth it to at least try to follow whatever chain of command you can. Does the student government have any sort of power over the campus ministry?

I think those reasons for denying it are somewhat lame. Some places do still celebrate Mass in Latin. It would very much be in keeping with their stated mission to expose their students to more than just one expression of the liturgy.

Further, no one needs Mass said in the vernacular either. That, too, is a preference. 🤷

Are you pushing to have the Latin Mass added in perpetuity or are you just trying to get it celebrated as a one-time thing? Sometimes it’s easiest to start small. It’s harder for them to go to the mat blocking your efforts if you just want them to celebrate it once. Then after it is celebrated once, a precedence is set for you to ask for it again next semester. 🙂 At that point, a lot will hinge on how successful the first one is. If no one shows up, then they can say that no one is interested and it will be more difficult to argue your case.

Even if the Cardinal may not have direct authority over the campus, looping him in wouldn’t be a waste. You may not get a reply or see some immediate change, but at least he’d be aware of what is going on. I probably wouldn’t try contacting him just yet, though. Try a few other things and see what progress can be made. Be sure to document everything.
 
You might try instead to organize a bus to bring interested students to a nearby parish with a liturgy in Latin. If enough students use the bus each week, then the campus ministers might be more open to hosting a Latin liturgy of their own.

Do keep in mind that you are very privileged to have the priests you do each week. It is a large commitment to give one’s life to the service of God. Catholic schools are under a lot of pressure right now, and have limited resources. They have to cover certain bases, and can’t spread themselves too thin.
 
coolduude said:
  1. Take this to the student government, get it approved by them, then come back to Campus Ministry and the director of the chapel and demand our Mass.
Click to expand...
Demanding anything is going to get you a polite dismissal, at best.

-Tim-
 
Actually, I thought the reasons given for refusal were reasonable. And is that college actually run by Jesuits? I thought that they don’t actively participate any longer in the administration. Please correct me if I’m wrong.
 
TimothyH said:
Demanding anything is going to get you a polite dismissal, at best.

-Tim-
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Indeed. It’s far more effective to demonstrate the benefits rather than slamming documents on someone’s desk and making demands.
 
grasscutter said:
Actually, I thought the reasons given for refusal were reasonable. And is that college actually run by Jesuits? I thought that they don’t actively participate any longer in the administration. Please correct me if I’m wrong.
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:hmmm: I honestly don’t know who runs that particular university. That would make a difference if the OP wanted to run his request up the ladder (which should really be a last resort). He would need to make sure he knows the answer to that question.
 
Wow, you want the OF said in Latin? To me, that is even a more obscure option than just having the EF and all its trappings. In my opinion, the Latin OF is not regarded as viable because it can alienate regulars of a vernacular Mass and also can alienate traditionalists who prefer the structure, prayers, and rituals of the EF, not just its language.

But really, a Latin OF is a great nod to the hermeneutic of continuity, isn’t it? A priest and congregation who accustomed themselves to the Latin in the OF could easily transition back and forth to the EF when desired. I have strong feelings that when a community has many cultures meeting, such as American, Latino, Korean, Polish, the community should be obliged to offer at least one OF in Latin, so that everyone can join in the universal prayer of the Latin Church.

My parish is sharply divided between Anglophone and Latino populations. Almost all our activities are segregated based on the language we prefer. It is extremely sub-optimal. As a recent example, we are upgrading our music to chanting the proper and season antiphons in English. However, the Spanish Masses are still stuck on Flor y Canto for the foreseeable future. It is a tragedy that a flourishing and vital community is getting second-rate liturgy.

Anyway, I wish you the best of luck on your quest. It will not be easy but I will offer my prayers in solidarity.
 
IronMIke said:
Why is in Latin so important?
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Because the Church has said so. Vatican II reiterated this. It should be accorded “pride of place” in the liturgical worship of the Roman Rite. Read all the great documents and you will see why.
 
Inego_de_Loyola said:
Because it is the language of the Universal Church.
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Actually, it is not. The 22 Eastern Catholic Churches do not use Latin, it is not part of their spiritual patrimony. They are members of the Universal Church. They use the vernacular in their worship and primarily Greek in their theological discourse. Latin is the patrimony of the Latin Church, and that is why it should be retained and given pride of place.
 
Elizium23 said:
Actually, it is not. The 22 Eastern Catholic Churches do not use Latin, it is not part of their spiritual patrimony. They are members of the Universal Church. They use the vernacular in their worship and primarily Greek in their theological discourse. Latin is the patrimony of the Latin Church, and that is why it should be retained and given pride of place.
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For more than a millennium the ecumenical (Universal) councils of the Church have been in Latin with a few exceptions (Such as Florence which was both in Latin and in Greek). When the Supreme pontiff speaks to the Universal Church it is generally in Latin.
 
coolduude said:
Hi all,

I have a question regarding the OF of the Mass in Latin and things that go along with it.

I attend Loyola University Chicago (a very liberal school by any measure). I am pushing to get the Latin OF said in our main campus chapel, but I’m being shut out and shut down by Campus Ministry and by the director for the chapel (a priest nonetheless).
Click to expand...
Pushing is never a good idea. Make sure all your interactions with the director/chaplain and the campus ministry team and respectful and charitable. A soft word turns away wrath…
The resources are available to hold such a Mass, as the University owns all the physical materials, such as candles, altar cloths, etc. There is even a priest willing to say the Mass itself.
Click to expand...
Excellent news! There can be more to the issue than that though - including scheduling issues and a priest’s responsibilities to his own assignment.
Campus Ministry and the director of the chapel are claiming that they will not permit a Latin Mass for several reasons, but here are the two they really emphasized:
  1. Campus Ministry’s “mission” is to prepare students for liturgies they’ll see once they graduate. Since Latin is not used much in most parishes it will not be used on campus.
  2. Preference vs. Need- Those of us pushing for a Latin OF are merely preferring it; we do not need it and it therefore will not be permitted.
Click to expand...
What were there other reasons? They probably have to do with things like logistics, which are not as “interesting” but are important. On the other hand, ensuring that students continue to attend Mass and practice their faith as young adults living on their own outside a campus mission atmosphere is very important also. It is to no one’s good for students to feel that if Mass isn’t ‘special’ or ‘perfect’ than they aren’t ‘being fed’. That only leads to more fallen away Catholics.
Furthermore, there are parishes within the city of Chicago that hold a Latin Mass. They argue we should just go there and leave Loyola alone. I should note that there are at least 50-60 students interested in getting a Latin OF on campus.
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Even 60 students at a place the size of Loyola isn’t a huge percentage. I agree with the poste who suggested that you ask for a once in a while EF Mass to begin with. Your numbers a relatively small, so start your efforts at a similar size.
Those of us pushing for the Latin OF Mass have three options going forward, so far as I can tell:
  1. Take this to the student government, get it approved by them, then come back to Campus Ministry and the director of the chapel and demand our Mass.
  2. Skip the student government and write to Cardinal George and ask for his intervention in the matter.
  3. Contact the Jesuit Superior of our province and seek his intervention (I’m not sure that would work because Jesuit’s are quite liberal).
Click to expand...
So, when should I call on the Cardinal? Should I write to him at all or should I write to him immediately? What’s the best course of action to take here to get the OF Latin Mass on campus?
Click to expand...
I do not recommend that you go to the Cardinal at all. Follow these steps instead:
  1. Go back to the chaplain and ask with humility and charity if he will help you organize one EF Mass. If there isn’t time before finals, ask for it during spring semester.
  2. Ask the senior Jesuit at the university for guidance. The student government doesn’t have jurisdiction here, and there has to be a level of church organization between he chaplain at the provincial superior.
  3. Start with prayer. Organize your friends to say a novena or a rosary a day.
I will pray for you. Humility and charity, respect for the priest and his office, those will all go a long way.
 
Reading more carefully…you are asking about the Ordinary Form in Latin. why do you mention any special items required such as candles and altar cloths? Those are used no matter which language the OF Mass is said in. You will need additional items of an EF, but why for an OF??

Are you sure the chaplain knows what you are asking for? Perhaps he thinks you are just stirring up trouble for no real reason. :confused:
 
This is the same place which holds dance “worship” liturgies, taze prayer, and other events in the same Chapel. There are only 3 masses said on Sunday and two during the weekday so there is plenty of time. They have made other accommodations for Muslims, Jews, and Protestants. There is nothing wrong with this, but the University needs to fair to its students, they pay A LOT for tuition. This isn’t the same as demanding from the Church or a diocese.
 
spartan_cop said:
This is the same place which holds dance “worship” liturgies, taze prayer, and other events in the same Chapel. There are only 3 masses said on Sunday and two during the weekday so there is plenty of time. They have made other accommodations for Muslims, Jews, and Protestants. There is nothing wrong with this, but the University needs to fair to its students, they pay A LOT for tuition. This isn’t the same as demanding from the Church or a diocese.
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Demanding the sacraments from God’s Holy Church is not the same as demanding new paint in the dorm, better parking or that specific classes be offered.

The university is the university, but the Mass belongs to the Church. Whether anyone is happy about it or not, Jesuit priests are still part of the Church and when the Jesuit priest says “This is my body” in any language, Christ is still present.

I give thousands of dollars every year to my parish but that doesn’t give me the right to demand that the sacraments be delivered to me on a silver platter, the way I prefer them to be delivered. The Church - Jesuits included - is the mouthpiece of Christ, God’s instrument of salvation on earth, and operates with divine authority. Its one thing to ask, to open a discussion, to request and even to argue strongly, but demanding that the sacraments be given to us in specific ways is pretty arrogant, and the ammount of money one pays to any given Catholic institution doesn’t change that.

-Tim-
 
coolduude said:
Hi all,

I have a question regarding the OF of the Mass in Latin and things that go along with it.

I attend Loyola University Chicago (a very liberal school by any measure). I am pushing to get the Latin OF said in our main campus chapel, but I’m being shut out and shut down by Campus Ministry and by the director for the chapel (a priest nonetheless). The resources are available to hold such a Mass, as the University owns all the physical materials, such as candles, altar cloths, etc. There is even a priest willing to say the Mass itself. Campus Ministry and the director of the chapel are claiming that they will not permit a Latin Mass for several reasons, but here are the two they really emphasized:
  1. Campus Ministry’s “mission” is to prepare students for liturgies they’ll see once they graduate. Since Latin is not used much in most parishes it will not be used on campus.
  2. Preference vs. Need- Those of us pushing for a Latin OF are merely preferring it; we do not need it and it therefore will not be permitted. Furthermore, there are parishes within the city of Chicago that hold a Latin Mass. They argue we should just go there and leave Loyola alone. I should note that there are at least 50-60 students interested in getting a Latin OF on campus.
Those of us pushing for the Latin OF Mass have three options going forward, so far as I can tell:
  1. Take this to the student government, get it approved by them, then come back to Campus Ministry and the director of the chapel and demand our Mass.
  2. Skip the student government and write to Cardinal George and ask for his intervention in the matter.
  3. Contact the Jesuit Superior of our province and seek his intervention (I’m not sure that would work because Jesuit’s are quite liberal).
So, when should I call on the Cardinal? Should I write to him at all or should I write to him immediately? What’s the best course of action to take here to get the OF Latin Mass on campus?
Click to expand...
You have been told no. I would drop this course of action for many reasons that I will not list here.
St. John Cantius is nine miles south of your campus. You can attend the Extraordinary Mass with all that it meant to be!
 
Thanks for the responses everyone.

I erred when I said we are “demanding” our Mass. What I should have said was we are petitioning for a redress of grievances and for permission to go forward with this Latin Mass. Why the OF instead of the EF? I felt that the people in charge would be more accepting to the OF because it’s the same Mass that is currently said in the chapel but we want it in Latin instead of English.

Some posters have pointed out that we (the petitioners) may be unreasonable asking for a Latin Mass when there are other options for us to go to one, even if they are off campus. But I would say that we are not being unreasonable. After all, as spartan_cop has pointed out, the University does permit multiple forms of worship within the chapel, almost all of which is of a liberal tilt. We are petitioning for an additional Mass to be added to the schedule which we feel would not be burdensome given the situation (that we have all the materials, there are vast swaths of free time the chapel is available, and we even have a priest willing and ready to say the Mass). The Campus Ministry’s denial of our request felt more like liberal ideology getting in the way of spiritual decisions rather than true legitimate concerns. If liberals can have their forms of worship on campus, why can’t conservatives? I would understand their decision if we truly were putting undue burdens on Campus Ministry such that they could not meet our request at this time, but as the facts stand that is just not the case. The question then becomes “why can’t we have this form of the Mass?” instead of “why should we be barred from this form of the Mass?” Campus Ministry has not answered that question to my or my colleague’s satisfaction and we therefore plan on continuing this push.

Last thing I wanted to clear up: one of the first posters thought that Cardinal George may not have jurisdiction over Loyola. As far as I know Cardinal George does indeed have jurisdiction because of his role as superintendent of Catholic schools in Chicago. Therefore his jurisdiction extends to Loyola. Can someone correct me if I’m wrong?
 
First and foremost please be respectful and use a respectful tone even if the others don’t. It will go a long way. If the local authorities will not work with you, then by all means go over their heads. Talk to Cardinal George and to the jesuit superior. Be persistant. If they say no, then goover their heads to the Vatican. good luck
:):)🙂
 
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