When to forgive and when not to forgive?

[paarsurrey]

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=4528937&postcount=34
Why do Muslims believe St Paul was a liar?

Originally Posted by **w_stewart **
Islam does not allow a sinner to repent. Once a man sins, he is to be punished cruelly even to the point of his death. The concept of forgiveness is germane to their religious tradition.

Hi

I think you have not studied Quran in the least. Never mind you may start it now.

[42:35] Or He can destroy those who are in them because of that which they have earned - but He forgives many of their sins -
[42:36] And He destroys them so that those who dispute concerning Our Signs may know that they have no refuge.
[42:37] And whatever you have been given is only a temporary provision of this life, but that which is with Allah is better and more lasting for those who believe and put their trust in their Lord,
[42:38] And those who eschew the more grievous sins and indecencies, and, when they are wroth, they forgive,
[42:39] And those, who hearken to their Lord, and observe Prayer, and whose affairs are decided by mutual consultation, and who spend out of what We have provided for them,
[42:40] And those who, when a wrong is done to them, defend themselves.

[42:41] Remember that the recompense of an injury is an injury the like thereof; but whoso forgives and thereby brings about an improvement, his reward is with Allah. Surely, He loves not the wrongdoers.

[42:42] There is no blame on those who defend themselves after they have been wronged.
[42:43] The blame is only on those who wrong men and transgress in the earth without justification. Such will have a grievous punishment.
[42:44] And he who is patient and forgives - that, surely, is a matter of high resolve.

alislam.org/quran/search2…=42& verse=34

I think now the concept of when to forgive and when not to forgive is clear to you. It is very rational; if forgiveness could reform the wrongdoer, then he may be forgiven, but if the wrongdoer gets more encouraged then he is not to be forgiven.

Islam does not make one a coward; but wants that one should be graceful.

Thanks

 

[wina]

[
I think now the concept of when to forgive and when not to forgive is clear to you. It is very rational; if forgiveness could reform the wrongdoer, then he may be forgiven, but if the wrongdoer gets more encouraged then he is not to be forgiven.

Thanks]()

Hate the sins but love the sinner. And we can’t judge people that their sin can’t be forgiven, only God who can judge them.

 

[inJESUS]

I think now the concept of when to forgive and when not to forgive is clear to you. It is very rational; if forgiveness could reform the wrongdoer, then he may be forgiven, but if the wrongdoer gets more encouraged then he is not to be forgiven.

How do you know who will be encouraged and who will be reformed?

 

[Angels_Unaware]

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=4528937&postcount=34
Why do Muslims believe St Paul was a liar?

Hi

I think you have not studied Quran in the least. Never mind you may start it now.

[42:35] Or He can destroy those who are in them because of that which they have earned - but He forgives many of their sins -
[42:36] And He destroys them so that those who dispute concerning Our Signs may know that they have no refuge.
[42:37] And whatever you have been given is only a temporary provision of this life, but that which is with Allah is better and more lasting for those who believe and put their trust in their Lord,
[42:38] And those who eschew the more grievous sins and indecencies, and, when they are wroth, they forgive,
[42:39] And those, who hearken to their Lord, and observe Prayer, and whose affairs are decided by mutual consultation, and who spend out of what We have provided for them,
[42:40] And those who, when a wrong is done to them, defend themselves.

[42:41] Remember that the recompense of an injury is an injury the like thereof; but whoso forgives and thereby brings about an improvement, his reward is with Allah. Surely, He loves not the wrongdoers.

[42:42] There is no blame on those who defend themselves after they have been wronged.
[42:43] The blame is only on those who wrong men and transgress in the earth without justification. Such will have a grievous punishment.
[42:44] And he who is patient and forgives - that, surely, is a matter of high resolve.

alislam.org/quran/search2…=42& verse=34

I think now the concept of when to forgive and when not to forgive is clear to you. It is very rational; if forgiveness could reform the wrongdoer, then he may be forgiven, but if the wrongdoer gets more encouraged then he is not to be forgiven.

Islam does not make one a coward; but wants that one should be graceful.

Thanks

This is a very, very different kind of forgiveness than the Christian concept of forgiveness.

Essentially, the above says that if there is some greater benefit to letting go of disputes and not retalitating, then you should do it and not retalitate. Even so, though, you choose not to retaliate not because you love your enemies but because it is simply more noble and beneficial for you.

The type of forgiveness described above is a human kind of forgiveness, with the same kind of principles we see in the criminal justice system. It is rational. It is not divine.

The Christian concept of forgiveness is foreign to us it is so difficult to practice. In fact, I would go so far as to say Christian forgiveness cannot be accomplished by any human being through their own will, if they are sane and healthy. Any sane and healthy person desires justice when they are wronged, and seeks to defend their ego. It is actually a miracle of the Holy Spirit when a person is able to forgive according to the true Christian model of forgiveness, because the Christian model of forgiveness is the kind that willingly allows oneself to devoured by wild animals while praying for ones’ persecutors.

That is divine.

 

[eldestofvic]

Hate the sins but love the sinner. And we can’t judge people that their sin can’t be forgiven, only God who can judge them.

I’m sorry but I’m not seeing how paarsurrey or the quoted Quran said anything about "hate"ing anyone. In deed, our own scriptures provide implied support for the Quran’s position.

Our psalms remind us regularly that God does, in deed, not love the unrepentant sinner “the wicked”. St. Paul tells his followers to treat the unrepentant as if they were tax collectors (we might say “Let them be anathema”.)

On a practical level we make such judgements all the time, and for good reason. Only on the surface does forgiveness, involves the spoken words of “I forgive you”. If these words cannot be supported by the reparation of trust than they are just words and of little value. So, in giving forgiveness to one another we regularly have to make a judgement about its practicality. Will it do any good? Will it serve any purpose?

For instance, my neighbour forgets to return a borrowed item and then later does return it. He is horribly sorry and I have no good reason to suspect anything otherwise. I can then forgive him with full intention of trusting him in the future to not forget. Or, my neighbour continuosly forgets to return items he borrows, he is very busy, naturally forgetful etc. but not indifferent or mean-spirited. Once again I would probably choose to forgive my neighbour with no intention of ever not trusting him with my stuff, but probably I would prompt him more often for return (with an eye towards improving his memory). On the otherhand there is the case of someone who borrows my stuff, is completely indifferent to returning the item, is discovered to have a history of such behavior and possibly requires the threat of legal action to return the item. Upon return of the item I might mouth a forgiveness towards the perpetrator in hopes that those words might have some future effect, or maybe in response to some ingrained sense that I’m suppose to. However, to be fair, I still judge the person as unredeemed and will probably never trust him again. So it might be said what value forgiveness? In an another example, I might find myself at the hands of a terrorist, or criminal who I know is about to execute me for some political reason or for some gain. Knowing that it will probably not change the outcome one bit I might still forgive this person in hopes that my forgiveness might someday be a spur to repentance. Again, the question of practicality is raised. I think it might do some good. ("**but whoso forgives and thereby brings about an improvement, his reward is with Allah".) **I’m not just saying it because I’m feel I’m suppose to.

Finally, I think it telling that this thread was begun in response to a lie about Islam that was being postulated by w_stewart. paarsurrey felt compelled to correct this lie (for we all know who is the author of all lies… no matter who says them) and the subsequent posts reveal absolutely no intention to acknowledge that lie and repent of it. But rather they hope to deflect it by boring in on yet another aspect - the nature of forgiveness in Islam. Tacit in this further attack is an acceptance that in fact Islam does allow for repentance and calls for forgiveness and not one person so far has been willing to say “Ooops we’re sorry. We misunderstood you.”

 

[Angels_Unaware]

I’m sorry but I’m not seeing how paarsurrey or the quoted Quran said anything about "hate"ing anyone. In deed, our own scriptures provide implied support for the Quran’s position.

Our psalms remind us regularly that God does, in deed, not love the unrepentant sinner “the wicked”. St. Paul tells his followers to treat the unrepentant as if they were tax collectors (we might say “Let them be anathema”.)

God ‘not loving’ the unrepentant sinner says nothing about the Christian perspective on forgiveness.I don’t know what verse you are quoting, but I would bet the meaning is that the unrepentant sinner separate himself from God’s love. Would say absolutely nothing about whether we should forgive people or take revenge, as the Koran demands.

Paul’s statement “let them be anathema” also has nothing to do with forgiveness. The statement is about separating oneself from false doctrine. That’s a very different concept than forgiveness.

On a practical level we make such judgements all the time, and for good reason. Only on the surface does forgiveness, involves the spoken words of “I forgive you”. If these words cannot be supported by the reparation of trust than they are just words and of little value. So, in giving forgiveness to one another we regularly have to make a judgement about its practicality. Will it do any good? Will it serve any purpose?

For instance, my neighbour forgets to return a borrowed item and then later does return it. He is horribly sorry and I have no good reason to suspect anything otherwise. I can then forgive him with full intention of trusting him in the future to not forget. Or, my neighbour continuosly forgets to return items he borrows, he is very busy, naturally forgetful etc. but not indifferent or mean-spirited. Once again I would probably choose to forgive my neighbour with no intention of ever not trusting him with my stuff, but probably I would prompt him more often for return (with an eye towards improving his memory). On the otherhand there is the case of someone who borrows my stuff, is completely indifferent to returning the item, is discovered to have a history of such behavior and possibly requires the threat of legal action to return the item. Upon return of the item I might mouth a forgiveness towards the perpetrator in hopes that those words might have some future effect, or maybe in response to some ingrained sense that I’m suppose to. However, to be fair, I still judge the person as unredeemed and will probably never trust him again. So it might be said what value forgiveness? In an another example, I might find myself at the hands of a terrorist, or criminal who I know is about to execute me for some political reason or for some gain. Knowing that it will probably not change the outcome one bit I might still forgive this person in hopes that my forgiveness might someday be a spur to repentance. Again, the question of practicality is raised. I think it might do some good. ("**but whoso forgives and thereby brings about an improvement, his reward is with Allah".) **I’m not just saying it because I’m feel I’m suppose to.

Are you kidding?

Master, how many times shall we forgive our brother? Seven times?

Matthew 18:22 Jesus said to him, I say not to you, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven

 

[notsmart]

Forgive always. Under all circumstances. And, while we are at it, we should also plead for forgiveness for ourselves also.

 

[eldestofvic]

I never “kid”.

paarsurrey… on behalf of myself and hopefully many I wish to say sorry for the lies I have believed about the Muslim faith in the past. Your religion like mine will have narrow minded fundies who will use the Quran to support whatever level of intolerance they choose. Just like my fellows will use the Bible. I hope that through the power of God/Allah such intolerance will someday pass.

 

[paarsurrey]

I never “kid”.

paarsurrey… on behalf of myself and hopefully many I wish to say sorry for the lies I have believed about the Muslim faith in the past. Your religion like mine will have narrow minded fundies who will use the Quran to support whatever level of intolerance they choose. Just like my fellows will use the Bible. I hope that through the power of God/Allah such intolerance will someday pass.

Hi

Amen.

I understand.Thank you brother; and only a Catholic could be as tolerant as you are.

Regards

 

[Angels_Unaware]

I never “kid”.

paarsurrey… on behalf of myself and hopefully many I wish to say sorry for the lies I have believed about the Muslim faith in the past. Your religion like mine will have narrow minded fundies who will use the Quran to support whatever level of intolerance they choose. Just like my fellows will use the Bible. I hope that through the power of God/Allah such intolerance will someday pass.

Wow, what a red herring.

Since when is careful explanation of theological differences “intolerance” and “lies”?

I don’t know what lies you are talking about, but there are real differences in doctrine between Islam and Christianity, and an interesting and fundamental difference is the concept of forgiveness as presented in the New Testament. Pointing that out has nothing to do with “intolerance”.

 

[eldestofvic]

Wow, what a red herring.

Since when is careful explanation of theological differences “intolerance” and “lies”?

If you’ld have been careful you would have addressed what paarsurrey was actually talking about.

I don’t know what lies you are talking about,

This one…

Islam does not allow a sinner to repent. Once a man sins, he is to be punished cruelly even to the point of his death.

All lies are intolerance.

but there are real differences in doctrine between Islam and Christianity, .

“…and our next contestant on the ‘$64,000.00 Question’, Angels Unaware. His/Her specialty, the bleeding obvious!”

 

[Angels_Unaware]

If you’ld have been careful you would have addressed what paarsurrey was actually talking about.

I actually addressed what paarurrey was actually actually actually talking about. If you actually read what I wrote, you would actully see that.

“…and our next contestant on the ‘$64,000.00 Question’, Angels Unaware. His/Her specialty, the bleeding obvious!”

Nice attitude you have there.

 

[inJESUS]

Islam does not allow a sinner to repent.

this is wrong.

Once a man sins, he is to be punished cruelly even to the point of his death.

this is true in the case of stoning for adultry or steeling.

 

[eldestofvic]

I actually addressed what paarurrey was actually actually actually talking about. If you actually read what I wrote, you would actully see that.

I have actually actually actually read every single post on this thread. It is blessedly short and, in fact, no you did not address the concern that paarsurrey raised. paarsurrey raised a contention with a singular lie about Islam, as I quoted above… “they do not forgive”. You, like every other poster in this thread chose to completely overlook the response, with support of their Quran, that what had been originally posted about Islam was a lie and move straight to attacking it from a different perspective.
That their forgiveness is not the same as ours. Its a human forgiveness, not a divine forgiveness. As I said earlier implied in your rebuttals is a tacit understanding that indeed Islam does teach forgiveness. For how could their forgiveness be different than ours if they didn’t teach it in the first place.

I alone on this thread was the only one to recognize that paarsurrey had exposed a lie in the understanding of myself and other Catholics with regard to Islam and say sorry for it. And yes I further asked forgiveness for intolerance, because isn’t that what is ultimately at the root of the propulgation of lies and rumours, an intolerant need to see everything wrong in the other.

How many of us have had the experience of going to those rabidly anti-catholic forums with the simple intention of correcting some grossly misleading statement about our beliefs only to have everything we say spitefully denied and our own words used in ways we had never intended.

Is that not exactly what happened here? Did not paarsurrey come here with the sole intention of correcting a misunderstanding of Islam shared by many non-Muslims? (Yes) Was his simple and valid presentation then met with an unfair and invalid bar it had to pass? (Yes - presenting the words of Jesus and christian maxims as a bench mark for forgiveness are rather pointless when a) the hearer does not believe that Jesus is God and b) common experience world-wide shows that the maxims are followed by virtually no one) Did not your responses totally ignore the fact that in even challenging his proposition you were in fact admitting its validity? (Yes, obviously)

Ergo, what but intolerance could possibly be driving the conversation? (Nothing) Simply say, “I’m sorry for holding to such a lie about your faith” and move on.

Nice attitude you have there.

Let’s face it you walked into that one.

 

[Angels_Unaware]

I have actually actually actually read every single post on this thread. It is blessedly short and, in fact, no you did not address the concern that paarsurrey raised. paarsurrey raised a contention with a singular lie about Islam, as I quoted above… “they do not forgive”. You, like every other poster in this thread chose to completely overlook the response, with support of their Quran, that what had been originally posted about Islam was a lie and move straight to attacking it from a different perspective.
That their forgiveness is not the same as ours. Its a human forgiveness, not a divine forgiveness. As I said earlier implied in your rebuttals is a tacit understanding that indeed Islam does teach forgiveness. For how could their forgiveness be different than ours if they didn’t teach it in the first place.

I alone on this thread was the only one to recognize that paarsurrey had exposed a lie in the understanding of myself and other Catholics with regard to Islam and say sorry for it. And yes I further asked forgiveness for intolerance, because isn’t that what is ultimately at the root of the propulgation of lies and rumours, an intolerant need to see everything wrong in the other.

How many of us have had the experience of going to those rabidly anti-catholic forums with the simple intention of correcting some grossly misleading statement about our beliefs only to have everything we say spitefully denied and our own words used in ways we had never intended.

Is that not exactly what happened here? Did not paarsurrey come here with the sole intention of correcting a misunderstanding of Islam shared by many non-Muslims? (Yes) Was his simple and valid presentation then met with an unfair and invalid bar it had to pass? (Yes - presenting the words of Jesus and christian maxims as a bench mark for forgiveness are rather pointless when a) the hearer does not believe that Jesus is God and b) common experience world-wide shows that the maxims are followed by virtually no one) Did not your responses totally ignore the fact that in even challenging his proposition you were in fact admitting its validity? (Yes, obviously)

Ergo, what but intolerance could possibly be driving the conversation? (Nothing) Simply say, “I’m sorry for holding to such a lie about your faith” and move on.

Let’s face it you walked into that one.

Hey, genius, THAT’S FROM ANOTHER THREAD. I’m so glad you read every word of this thread. I was right ON THE ISSUE ADDRESSED IN THIS THREAD and you were wrong.

 

[Angels_Unaware]

You have serious problems, buddy. I did not in any way shape or form attack Islam or the poster, paarsurrey, whom I happen to like and respect very much.

My post was on the difference between forgiveness in the two religions.

PERIOD.

Go take your bitter, mis-directed anger somewhere else.

 

[paarsurrey]

Once a man sins, he is to be punished cruelly even to the point of his death

this is true in the case of stoning for adultry or steeling.

Hi

Kindly quote from Quran.

Thanks

 

[eldestofvic]

You have serious problems, buddy. I did not in any way shape or form attack Islam or the poster, paarsurrey, whom I happen to like and respect very much.

Well “buddy” I may or may not have serious problems. However, I defy you to know that for sure. So in keeping with rule of civility why don’t you just keep your commentary about me to that which you know… which is exactly zero.

All my sarcasm aside I believe it is I and not you that clearly understood what the originator was trying to put forward and addressed his concerns. You and the other posters stormed this thread with your own agenda. How can that be seen as anything other than an attack?

For someone you claim to like and respect you seem to have a hard time actually addressing what he was saying to you.

My post was on the difference between forgiveness in the two religions.

PERIOD.

My point exactly! That isn’t what paarsurrey was trying to address.

Go take your bitter, mis-directed anger somewhere else.

As long as I am willing to respect the rules of this Board I will go wherever I choose on it. And the only one around here appearing to get bitter is you.

 

[Angels_Unaware]

All my sarcasm aside I believe it is I and not you that clearly understood what the originator was trying to put forward and addressed his concerns. You and the other posters stormed this thread with your own agenda. How can that be seen as anything other than an attack?

For someone you claim to like and respect you seem to have a hard time actually addressing what he was saying to you.
.

I didn’t read whatever other thread you are so upset about, and I am not going to be a scapegoat for whatever you are so angry about.

The first post in this thread and the topic of the thread is what the Koran says about forgiveness. That post may have been an offshoot to somebody else’s wrong understanding of Islam, and their statement that Islam does not allow repentance, but that’s not my fault. I really didn’t care about their comment, and why should I address it anyway since it is not true?

That first post was an excerpt from the Koran about forgiveness. Paarsurrey was explaining what was being taught. Fine. I totally respect that. I also see it as very different from Christian forgiveness, which is what MY first post was about.

YOUR post then was about how there is no difference between Islam and Christianity when it comes to forgiveness, which I disputed.

And now I am sitting here as YOUR scapegoat for “attacking” paarsurrey. Which is absurd.

But hey, that’s fine. Just twist my words so you can punish someone for whatever it is you’re mad about.

 

[dzheremi]

Hi

Kindly quote from Quran.

Thanks

Hi Paarsurrey:

Here is an article from “American Thinker” internet journal that deals with some of the harsh punishments found in Islam, including references from the Quran. Please read it and comment on it, if you’d like.

Disclaimer: This journal is obviously very politically conservative, and speaks only for a certain segment of Americans. It lists in its “About Us” page that it is committed to the continued security of the state of Israel, which is obviously a very contentious issue (and not only for Muslims, but also for Christians like me who have certain problems with American policy vis-a-vis Israel) that is likely to make you suspicious of the article. This is fine, but if you can look at the text of the article as if it were written from another group, it might help. I would have written that article myself, if I had the resources and time, and I am certainly not by default anti-Muslim or pro-Israel. The world is not that simple.