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pianistclare
Guest
I’ll have to find the thread that amply covered this…looking
- Status
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pianistclare
Guest
Start with this. 
catholic.com/tracts/the-intercession-of-the-saints
*
(Catholics believe that everyone in heaven is a saint.
Canonized Saints are those how have miracle attributed to their intercession.) *
catholic.com/tracts/the-intercession-of-the-saints
*
(Catholics believe that everyone in heaven is a saint.
Canonized Saints are those how have miracle attributed to their intercession.) *
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styrgwillidar
Guest
If you’re curious, the Church has committed it’s teaching and doctrine in writing. Here is a link to the catechism:
usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/what-we-believe/catechism/catechism-of-the-catholic-church/epub/index.cfm
A clarification on revelation. It is God revealing himself to man and those thing necessary for salvation. Christ revealed everything necessary for our salvation, public revelation ended with the death of the last apostle- the last folks to be able to witness to Christ’s revelation directly.
67 Throughout the ages, there have been so-called “private” revelations, some of which have been recognized by the authority of the Church. They do not belong, however, to the deposit of faith. It is not their role to improve or complete Christ’s definitive Revelation, but to help live more fully by it in a certain period of history. Guided by the magisterium of the Church, the sensus fidelium knows how to discern and welcome in these revelations whatever constitutes an authentic call of Christ or his saints to the Church. (84, 93)Christian faith cannot accept “revelations” that claim to surpass or correct the Revelation of which Christ is the fulfillment, as is the case in certain non-Christian religions and also in certain recent sects which base themselves on such “revelations.”
…
73 God has revealed himself fully by sending his own Son, in whom he has established his covenant for ever. The Son is his Father’s definitive Word; so there will be no further Revelation after him.
The Bible itself nowhere claims to be all that is necessary, neither does it claim to be some sort of textbook that contains the entirety of what the Apostles taught. The Apostles taught as Jesus did- by their word and example while living amongst the people. The apostles wrote letters to encourage the people after moving on to another community.
John 21, 25
There are also many other things that Jesus did, but if these were to be described individually, I do not think the whole world would contain the books that would be written.
2 Thessalonians, 2 15
Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught, either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours.*
Paul taught that we are one body in Christ, that we rejoice or sorrow over the status of any part of that body. Those portions on Earth as well as those who are with God. Since we are united together as one body we can ask for and receive assistance, we can support each other.
Revelation 8 indicates the prayers of the saints or the Holy Ones are presented to God, why not ask Mary to pray for us just as we ask others to?
usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/what-we-believe/catechism/catechism-of-the-catholic-church/epub/index.cfm
A clarification on revelation. It is God revealing himself to man and those thing necessary for salvation. Christ revealed everything necessary for our salvation, public revelation ended with the death of the last apostle- the last folks to be able to witness to Christ’s revelation directly.
67 Throughout the ages, there have been so-called “private” revelations, some of which have been recognized by the authority of the Church. They do not belong, however, to the deposit of faith. It is not their role to improve or complete Christ’s definitive Revelation, but to help live more fully by it in a certain period of history. Guided by the magisterium of the Church, the sensus fidelium knows how to discern and welcome in these revelations whatever constitutes an authentic call of Christ or his saints to the Church. (84, 93)Christian faith cannot accept “revelations” that claim to surpass or correct the Revelation of which Christ is the fulfillment, as is the case in certain non-Christian religions and also in certain recent sects which base themselves on such “revelations.”
…
73 God has revealed himself fully by sending his own Son, in whom he has established his covenant for ever. The Son is his Father’s definitive Word; so there will be no further Revelation after him.
The Bible itself nowhere claims to be all that is necessary, neither does it claim to be some sort of textbook that contains the entirety of what the Apostles taught. The Apostles taught as Jesus did- by their word and example while living amongst the people. The apostles wrote letters to encourage the people after moving on to another community.
John 21, 25
There are also many other things that Jesus did, but if these were to be described individually, I do not think the whole world would contain the books that would be written.
2 Thessalonians, 2 15
Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught, either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours.*
Paul taught that we are one body in Christ, that we rejoice or sorrow over the status of any part of that body. Those portions on Earth as well as those who are with God. Since we are united together as one body we can ask for and receive assistance, we can support each other.
Revelation 8 indicates the prayers of the saints or the Holy Ones are presented to God, why not ask Mary to pray for us just as we ask others to?
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CJsmommy
Guest
Wow, has my question branched out! 
(And was answered, thank you).
I think I found Biblical scripture relating to praying to Mary.
And you yourself shall be pierced with a sword so that the thoughts of many hearts may be laid bare. (Luke 2:35)
It’s Simeon talking to Mary when she brings Jesus to the temple as a baby.
(And was answered, thank you).I think I found Biblical scripture relating to praying to Mary.
And you yourself shall be pierced with a sword so that the thoughts of many hearts may be laid bare. (Luke 2:35)
It’s Simeon talking to Mary when she brings Jesus to the temple as a baby.
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ChosenOne7
Guest
But that scripture at Luke 2:35 also has nothing to do with praying to Mary, that scripture refers to the distress Mary would experience upon seeing the majority of the people reject Jesus as the Messiah and the grief she would feel over his painful death. Simeon was inspired to utter a prophecy. He foretold great things for Jesus, but he added that one day, Mary would come to feel as if she were run through by a long sword. How does that relate to praying to Mary?
Thanx guys I’ll definitely read up on those links you gave me… I just believe that if something isn’t from the bible then I start questions it’s beliefs, I’m still looking for the Christian Denomination that does what the Bible says… Like now I’m confused you guys are giving me things which doesn’t even relate to praying to Mary an I’m thinking how do you guys then see what I’m not seeing… But leme read on those links maybe it would make more sense to me lol
Thanx guys I’ll definitely read up on those links you gave me… I just believe that if something isn’t from the bible then I start questions it’s beliefs, I’m still looking for the Christian Denomination that does what the Bible says… Like now I’m confused you guys are giving me things which doesn’t even relate to praying to Mary an I’m thinking how do you guys then see what I’m not seeing… But leme read on those links maybe it would make more sense to me lol
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ChosenOne7
Guest
Revelation 8 speaks about angels blowing trumpets… Which verse in revelations 8 specifically speaks about angels praying to God? You confusing me more lol I don’t know if we reading from the same Bible
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styrgwillidar
Guest
Well, the problem will be that, as the numerous protestant denominations illustrate, folks seeking Christ with sincere hearts can come to very different conclusions about what scripture passages mean. For example, Catholics take the Bread of Life discourse in John very differently than the protestants. Paul warned about the difficulty in interpreting scripture. Similarly, Christ’s selecting Peter as the rock upon which He will build the Church is interpreted very differently.
The issue comes down to what authority do you place your trust in? Why accept the Bible as scriptural to begin with? Why accept the Catholic canon of scripture versus the Protestant canon which removed the 7 (I think) deuterocanonical books and changed some passages in scripture. Christ directed that if we have a difference with our brother that we can’t resolve, we’re to go to the Church for a final resolution. Can’t really do that if there isn’t an authoritative Church. I personally only accept the Bible as scriptural because I accept that Christ granted authority to a Church- the Catholic Church. Without that authority, I don’t have a reason to accept the Bible as scripture.
I studied early Church history to see how the early Christian practiced the faith. How did they understand it prior to the declaration of the canon of scripture. A good book is- “Faith of the Early Fathers”, translated and edited by Jurgens. The thing you can not get away from is the early Christians accepted a church hierarchy, and that the belief in the Eucharist and real presence were central to the faith. You also find that prayers for saints to intercede and pray with us were accepted very early in church history.
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ChosenOne7
Guest
Yes but now where in the Bible does it show that it was practised in the early Christian days, like you say prayers for Saints was accepted back then that should link up or support the scriptures in the Bible… You still not giving me scriptural proof that it was practised… Think about this for a moment… Timothy 2:5 declares, “For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” There is no one else that can mediate with God for us. If Jesus is the ONLY mediator, that indicates Mary and the saints cannot be mediators. They cannot mediate our prayer requests to God. Further, the Bible tells us that Jesus Christ Himself is interceding for us before the Father: “Therefore He is able to save completely those who come to God through Him, because He always lives to intercede for them” (Hebrews 7:25). With Jesus Himself interceding for us, why would we need Mary or the saints to intercede for us?
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styrgwillidar
Guest
3 Another angel came and stood at the altar,* holding a gold censer. He was given a great quantity of incense to offer, along with the prayers of all the holy ones, on the gold altar that was before the throne.c 4The smoke of the incense along with the prayers of the holy ones went up before God from the hand of the angel.
That’s the version on the USCCB.org form The New American Bible, Revised Edition (NABRE) other versions translate holy ones in Revelation as saints.
Revelation 5 also refers to the prayers of the holy ones-
8 When he took it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each of the elders held a harp and gold bowls filled with incense, which are the prayers of the holy ones.
ETA: website with multiple versions of the bibles so you can compare translations
biblehub.com/revelation/8-4.htm
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styrgwillidar
Guest
Ok then, I can’t pray for you? I would be your mediator.
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styrgwillidar
Guest
We don’t. Just as we don’t need others to pray for us. Would you prefer that no one prays for you?
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Stephen_says
Guest
newadvent.org/cathen/08070a.htm
(2) The doctrine of one Mediator, Christ, in no way excludes the invocation and intercession of saints. All merit indeed comes through Him; but this does not make it unlawful to ask our fellow-creatures, whether here on earth or already in heaven, to help us by their prayers. The same Apostle who insists so strongly on the sole mediatorship of Christ, earnestly begs the prayers of his brethren: “I beseech you, therefore, brethren, through our Lord Jesus Christ, and by the charity of the Holy Ghost, that you help me in your prayers for me to God” (Romans 15:30); and he himself prays for them: “I give thanks to my God in every remembrance of you, always in all my prayers making supplication for you all” (Philippians 1:3-4). If the prayers of the brethren on earth do not derogate from the glory and dignity of the Mediator, Christ, neither do the prayers of the saints in heaven.
Tobit 12:12 Raphael says: When thou, Tobias, wert praying, and with tears, when thou wert burying the dead, leaving thy dinner untasted, so as to hide them all day in thy house, and at night give them funeral, I, all the while, was offering that prayer of thine to the Lord.
Raphael, an angel, offered up the prayers of a living person to God.
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bakaten
Guest
But remember The Gospel is not a history book. The Gospel contain the message of salvation not describing early christian life. If the Bible is not even tell us the day to day life of Our Lord, His first 30 years of His life and the first disciple, why should it describe the early christian life?
You should look at other sources to find what the early christian life looks like.St Irenaeus, St Justin, St Ambrose and St Jerome are some of the st that mentioned Mary’s part of salvation on their writing dated back as early as 2nd century. Even the prayer Sub Tuum Presidium was found in 3rd century old tomb.
Now if we speak about the bible, when the first apostles baptised people or when Peter pray for the holy spirit to come, if that was not intercesorry prayers, I don’ know what should it be called?
sometimes I just don’t get it. People can really trust a “normal” people to pray for them during those healing masses or to be able to get the “gift”, but why can’t they trust Our Own Mother that Jesus specifically entrusted us to on His Passion and The Saints who has proved their faith and purity to pray for us?
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ChosenOne7
Guest
I think everything that was written in the Bible was what God wanted us to know or what we needed to know, I don’t think God left things out of the Bible for us not to know like for example the date of Jesus birth isn’t in the Bible but the date of his death is in, i don’t think God just forgot to put that date in the Bible for us. God didn’t need to put his whole life in the Bible but only the main points which we should learn from or follow. No where are we ever encouraged to read other books to learn about his early life that was not necessary for us to know… Now you said the Bible contains the message for salvation and one can fully agree with that but then would it not make sense that everything in the Bible is what we need to know to gain salvation? Or would one then really need to read other books to gain salvation or to understand things better? I still believe that all Christians should just follow what the Bible says, since it is our road map to everlasting life.
Now with regards to having people pray for you there are many examples in the Bible of that, like the Apostle Paul asks other Christians to pray for him in Ephesians 6:19. Many Scriptures describe believers praying for one another (2 Corinthians 1:11; Ephesians 1:16; Philippians 1:19; 2 Timothy 1:3). Now the best example to look at is Jesus Mary’s very own son he teaches his diciples how to pray (Matthew 6:9-13) the disciple James encouraged Christians then to “pray for one another” at James 5:16. However the Bible nowhere mentions anyone asking for someone in heaven to pray for him. The Bible nowhere describes anyone in heaven praying for anyone on earth. The Bible gives absolutely no indication that Mary or the saints can hear our prayers. Mary and the saints are not omniscient. It is clear that praying to Mary or the saints is completely different from asking someone here on earth to pray for us. The difference is that one has a strong biblical basis; the other has no biblical basis whatsoever. Understand that prayer is the one gift God gave us as humans to speak to him this gift was not given to angels… You can speak directly to God - “In everything by prayer and supplication along with thanksgiving let your petitions be made known to God.”—PHILIPPIANS 4:6.
Now with regards to having people pray for you there are many examples in the Bible of that, like the Apostle Paul asks other Christians to pray for him in Ephesians 6:19. Many Scriptures describe believers praying for one another (2 Corinthians 1:11; Ephesians 1:16; Philippians 1:19; 2 Timothy 1:3). Now the best example to look at is Jesus Mary’s very own son he teaches his diciples how to pray (Matthew 6:9-13) the disciple James encouraged Christians then to “pray for one another” at James 5:16. However the Bible nowhere mentions anyone asking for someone in heaven to pray for him. The Bible nowhere describes anyone in heaven praying for anyone on earth. The Bible gives absolutely no indication that Mary or the saints can hear our prayers. Mary and the saints are not omniscient. It is clear that praying to Mary or the saints is completely different from asking someone here on earth to pray for us. The difference is that one has a strong biblical basis; the other has no biblical basis whatsoever. Understand that prayer is the one gift God gave us as humans to speak to him this gift was not given to angels… You can speak directly to God - “In everything by prayer and supplication along with thanksgiving let your petitions be made known to God.”—PHILIPPIANS 4:6.
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ChosenOne7
Guest
If I’m not mistaken I think there is an account where Jesus also prays to God to watch over his diciples… But tell me do Catholics follow the Bible or other books? I’m actually learning alot from your comments things I didn’t know of before
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bakaten
Guest
It’s exactly like what you said. What in the Bible is what we need to know. The same thing why Mary is written in the Bible no? It’s because Her role is needed. Otherwise they can just left out the announciation or the part when Jesus said “This is your Mother”, right?
Now, we of course follow Bible, but remember that the very first Christian, doesn’t have bible to follow. What did they follow? It’s the teaching and tradition that the first disciples and early saints inherit to them. This is the same tradition that we believe the Catholic church had preserved. Bible is not written until the first century and the writing of St Irenaeus is early 2nd century dated. That’s why we follow both Bible and Catholic Tradition.
Moreover, Bible meaning also can get lost in translation. Even the ancient aramic that Jesus used to speak, is no longer exist. That’s why we believe that the writing of the Saints expand on the Bible. If you try to read on them you can see that they always qouting the Bible too. There is never any saint that rejected Biblem
Now back to subject of Mary. Is She necessary for our salvation? Yes She is. Is it necessary to pray to Her? No.
It’s like what St Louis De Montfort said, there are many
road to approach Jesus, but Mary is the “cheesy” way.
I am sorry but I can’t see the difference on asking Saints in Heaven and people on earth. Remember the parables of the rich man and lazarus? Certainly it is written Abraham can hear the rich man’s plea.
So yeah the way I see it is, if you want to take the Bible as the roadmap, then the preserved Catholic Tradition and writings of the Saints is the legend. They don’t contradict but rather complement one another.
Cheers
- Status