When to speak, when to be silent?

[holyrood]

I’ve posted here before about my dysfunctional family of origin. I went largely no contact with them about 5 years ago in the wake of screaming rages, outlandish demands and behavior, and ongoing criticalness, accusations, and general negativity from my parents; and in part on the unanimous advice of people here when I described in more detail what was going on. To be clear, this has involved physical violence over the years, even extreme enough to land my father in jail once.

BUT…my parents don’t do the same things in front of my kids. I have held my tongue for years about what has really gone on because among things I HATED growing up was my mother’s constant re-telling of Evil Grandma stories and her clear desire to have me hate other people.

So, I’ve said little to my kids. As a result, they apparently think their grandparents are great and I just can’t get along with anyone.

This arises now because my daughter just moved out yesterday and I found out after the fact that she’d been making plans with my parents for several weeks, none of them saying a word to me. I and her dad both think this is not going to go well for her, that she’s going to find herself on the receiving end of my dad’s criticisms and pushing, and being criticized by my mother. I have a friend who says it’s time to play her the long string of ugly, vulgar voicemails my dad left one morning while he was drunk, and show her what my dad really is.

I think it won’t make a difference and will only be seen as me being negative. My kids just want this to go away, and the few times they’ve pushed me and I’ve given the brief version of why I stay away, I’ve gotten responses such as, “I’m sure you think those things happened…”

I’m giving some background to why I ask the question, but really, I mean this as a broader question on how to handle this question in general, throughout life, of when it’s wise to speak up, when it’s wise to keep your nose clean and not say negative things about other people, and when holding your tongue becomes covering up for the offending parties.

I would very much like to hear other people’s stories. I’ll be honest, I doubt I’ll say anything to her and I’m sure I won’t play her those recordings, but I’d really like some thoughts on how to deal with these things with wisdom and grace and peace.

 

[MJJean]

My ex-husband is a chronic liar, extremely irresponsible, and was physically abusive among other things. We divorced when my oldest daughter was 5 and the youngest was 1.

My ex claimed to my daughter that he didn’t speak to her for many years because I wouldn’t let him. I told her that was not the case and it was his choice. He told our daughter that he didn’t have to pay support. I showed her the divorce papers with support clearly listed. She then said that her father told her he was paying support and that I was spending it on other things. I showed her the court papers regarding his arrears. Years of that kind of thing. I wasn’t speaking badly of her father, but I was doing what I could to show her the truth.

A couple years ago my eldest turned 17 and decided to leave state to go live with her father because he was supposedly a nice, mature, responsible, man who had grown up. I knew better, but I let her go anyway. Within months the phone calls started. She told tales of a filthy house, of her grandparents paying the bills because her father was working and blowing the money on frivalous things. They (my ex, his new wife and their 2 young children plus my oldest) had to move back in with my ex’s parents due to his irresponsibility. That’s when I started getting phone calls about how he wouldn’t get out of bed in the morning to take care of his young kids or about how he wouldn’t help his father with yard work, or about his lie after lie. I got calls about arguments that involved violence and on and on. My girl asked to come home after a year and the reason she stayed that long was to be near her grandparents.

No matter what I explained to my child about her father she apparently had to see it for herself to believe it.

If I were you I would explain things honestly and without anger or undue criticism. Show what proof you can up to and including police reports and medical reports if you have them or can get them. After your child has all the information she will have to make her own decision.

 

[CatholicRaven]

I think that you are taking the high road, and I admire you for that. Eventually, your kids will figure that out on their own, especially as they get older. If your daughter’s current plans with her grandparents don’t turn out well, then it will be sooner rather than later for her to figure it out.

That may be hard to accept, but since your daughter is no longer living with you, there’s not much you can do except pray for her. Well, and let her know that you are there for her and willing to help her if she needs it (in general, I mean–it’s probably not a good idea at this point to imply that she’ll need you to “rescue” her from your parents).

I think, in general, we tend to say more than we need to say, rather than less–and if others need more information, they often ask for it (although some also ask for information that they don’t need). Sometimes it’s hard to discern who “needs to know” and especially *how much *they need to know. It can be hard to separate facts from feelings, as well. When in doubt, I’d speak with prayerful caution, and ask my husband, priest, spiritual director, or counselor for advice.

Will for you!

 

[TheRealJuliane]

I’ve posted here before about my dysfunctional family of origin. I went largely no contact with them about 5 years ago in the wake of screaming rages, outlandish demands and behavior, and ongoing criticalness, accusations, and general negativity from my parents; and in part on the unanimous advice of people here when I described in more detail what was going on. To be clear, this has involved physical violence over the years, even extreme enough to land my father in jail once.

BUT…my parents don’t do the same things in front of my kids. I have held my tongue for years about what has really gone on because among things I HATED growing up was my mother’s constant re-telling of Evil Grandma stories and her clear desire to have me hate other people.

So, I’ve said little to my kids. As a result, they apparently think their grandparents are great and I just can’t get along with anyone.

This arises now because my daughter just moved out yesterday and I found out after the fact that she’d been making plans with my parents for several weeks, none of them saying a word to me. I and her dad both think this is not going to go well for her, that she’s going to find herself on the receiving end of my dad’s criticisms and pushing, and being criticized by my mother. I have a friend who says it’s time to play her the long string of ugly, vulgar voicemails my dad left one morning while he was drunk, and show her what my dad really is.

I think it won’t make a difference and will only be seen as me being negative. My kids just want this to go away, and the few times they’ve pushed me and I’ve given the brief version of why I stay away, I’ve gotten responses such as, “I’m sure you think those things happened…”

I’m giving some background to why I ask the question, but really, I mean this as a broader question on how to handle this question in general, throughout life, of when it’s wise to speak up, when it’s wise to keep your nose clean and not say negative things about other people, and when holding your tongue becomes covering up for the offending parties.

I would very much like to hear other people’s stories. I’ll be honest, I doubt I’ll say anything to her and I’m sure I won’t play her those recordings, but I’d really like some thoughts on how to deal with these things with wisdom and grace and peace.

In your case I think I probably would have been honest with the kids all along, especially since there has been actual violence and threats. I would not have left a door open for the grandparents to have any contact with my kids and to brainwash them against me. It’s just too risky - some kids might be susceptible to that sort of thing and permanently turn away from you and toward the grandparents, who will be left to do all sorts of harm.

I cannot, however, be completely honest with our sons. Believe me, my tongue has holes in it from my restraint. However, my husband and I have managed to get the point across without saying it as they have observed my husband and the family member interact. Now that they are older, my husband has let them in on some things. The tactic we take is a little less serious, a little more mocking and exasperation, which is hubby’s decision.

Is your daughter actually moving in with your parents? I could never allow that. I just wouldn’t. I probably would have to do the shock treatment if my child insisted, and consider it an intervention. Yeah, he’d be angry at me. But I’d have saved him from a lot of heartbreak and possible violence, so…

 

[holyrood]

Thank you for your answers.

I suppose it’s a result of my upbringing, but the fact that anyone says anything in support of me or against my dear Good Catholic Parents leaves me feeling that I must have lied and misled all of you somehow. I still have that voice ringing in my ears, telling me that If I were honest dot dot dot…people would see me for who I really am.

Juliane, she left yesterday morning while I was at work. It was a long work day, and when I returned her call in the evening, she was at my parents’. She’s 18. There’s nothing I can do.

I have eliminated contact between my kids and parents as much as possible, but I do take the kids to extended family gatherings at other people’s homes, where my parents are present. My older kids have continued to visit on their own. I came home one day this past January to discover my parents had been in my home while I was at work–once again without anyone telling me–to bring the kids Christmas presents, because I wouldn’t let the kids go over there.

In addition, because of family dynamics, I feel under a lot of ‘peer pressure’ that I’m being the bad guy to deny my children and their dear, sweet grandparents a relationship.

Just a sad side note: my daughter lived with my parents briefly for 6 months when she was young (during the time my husband made the move first with a few of the kids, and they lived with my parents until he bought a house). A friend of mine has commented, even 9 years later, how awful my mother was to my kids, grouchy, yelling, finding fault, on their backs for everything and anything, and has remarked that my daughter has conveniently forgotten that. This is from another adult who watched it happening. I know my (now ex) husband was so miserable there within weeks he was threatening to quit his new job, move back to our original location, and skip the move altogether.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

Well, I will pray that her eyes will be opened very soon! It is a very frightening proposition to let your young adult child be exposed to that kind of evil, in the guise of people who love her. No, I suppose you can’t stop her, which is a pity. When she comes back, however, I’d be totally honest with her at that point, and even let her hear the recordings, knowing that she might get angry with you for not making it clear to her before she left, of course. Classic lose-lose but she’ll get over being angry at you.

 

[Xantippe]

“If I were you I would explain things honestly and without anger or undue criticism. Show what proof you can up to and including police reports and medical reports if you have them or can get them. After your child has all the information she will have to make her own decision.”

Yes.

If holyrood’s daughter is going to be living with her grandparents, she deserves a heads up. My grandparents are lovely people, but living with them from time to time was different from visiting grandma and grandpa for an afternoon or going on vacation with grandma and grandpa. With not-so-lovely people, the difference would be even more dramatic.

I would be worried that she may wind up being mistreated at their house and then feel that she doesn’t have a way out if she feels like she’s burnt her bridges with holyrood. Keep the channels of communication open and watch for danger signs.

 

[EasterJoy]

I think your daughter deserves to know that the grandparent she is moving in has been violent enough with his family in the past to land him in jail. That’s a safety issue, very clearly. She needs to know that he has that pattern of behavior, because now she is in a situation where she may have to respond accordingly–and very promptly!–to protect herself, rather than having you there to protect her if things go south. He’s never been like that around her, but she had better be ready to accept immediately that she is not the exceptional case, after all, should that prove to be true. Otherwise, what if she takes too long to put two and two together? It could cost her life.

Tell her that you have voicemails to prove that you are not exaggerating his outbursts of temper, but that you would rather she just believe you that he can be physically violent, be warned, and not have to listen to them. If she is fond of him, it would be a kindness to spare her that, if you can. She ought to be particularly aware to get herself out of the house if he drinks too much, though. You can word it as, “It worries me that you’re moving in with him, here’s why, I wish you wouldn’t do it, but since it is your decision I want you at the very least to know what his history is, so you’ll be ready to act if you need to. Make sure you always have a safe place to go and a way to get there on short notice. I will be that for you, if you want, but if you don’t want me, have someone. If he is never that way with you, well, praise be to Heaven.”

She may not listen to you, she may choose to be in denial about the danger she may be in, but that will be on her. Right now, though, it is on you to let her know that she could be placing herself in physical and emotional danger, but that you also realize that this is her decision. What she does with that information, be willing to accept that this is out of your hands. Your willingness to leave control of the situation to her will speak volumes, particularly when Grandma and Grandpa don’t want to give her that later on down the line.

PS I see reading your later post that she’s seen him “being grouchy”. If the voicemails are more recent, they’re still relevant. Still, I’d avoid playing them, if I didn’t have to. I wouldn’t angle myself as the single person she ought to turn to for help. Recognize her as an adult and the one who gets the decision. You know your parents probably won’t. That will make a difference in her ability to eventually comprehend the situation. As for when she comprehends, leave that up to God.

 

[holyrood]

Thank you for the advice and thoughts.

I have no idea how much he drinks now. The last I knew anything of his drinking was 2-1/2 years ago when he made the phone calls. He sounded quite drunk and that was 10:30 in the morning, which I’d never known him to do. Then again, I have a cousin who says he’s sloshed every time she sees him, and I’d never actually noticed it–maybe I’m so used to it I don’t even realize he’s drunk?

The jail incident was 25 years ago; he tried to choke me 20 years ago. He was hitting my mother 50 years ago before they were married. Whether he’s been out and out violent in the last 19 years, again, I have no idea. I can’t imagine her being in actual physical danger, but then again, I continue to be shocked by the things he does and says.

I think part of my frustration is that I suspect anything I do will be seen as vindictive. She was supposed to have oral surgery, something that’s part of orthodontic care, but not strictly medically necessary. Her dad hasn’t paid his share of the orthodontic care in years, despite court orders and I’m not feeling really inclined to pay for surgery that isn’t strictly necessary right now. I also think it’s appropriate to have her return her house key, but suspect that, too, will be seen as vindictive. (One of the typical traits of adult children of alcoholics–I don’t even know what normal is, or what really is right or appropriate. )

 

[TheRealJuliane]

Have you ever gone to Al-Anon?

Might help; couldn’t hurt.

 

[Contra_Mundum_1]

Reading your posts and all the replies makes me think that your daughter will find out the truth soon enough. It is a good thing - it will be her personal experience, not something based on mom’s stories. You’d hope she was a bit wiser and trusted you, but some teens are like that. She will grow up, and perhaps this experience of being with them will help her get there.

If I were you, I wouldn’t do anything that could be interpreted as vindictive. I’d let her have the key, unless you think she might bring the grandparents to your home or something like that. (In that case I’d change the lock.) It sounds like she has turned against you for some weird reason (and now I’m thinking about the road trip and her siding with the cousin over the money issue.) I think that the best thing you can do is let her find things out on her own and be there if she needs help.

I used to be a bit like her when I was younger, rebelled against my mom and sided with my dad for a while who was a liar and a cheat and the most selfish person ever. But I refused to see him for who he was, refused to listen to her and found all sorts of excuses. I have no idea why I did that, she never hurt me or betrayed me. The stupidity of youth I guess, and maybe some emotional need that was never met by my father. But eventually I had to open my eyes when I got burned. Sometimes we just have to get hurt to smarten up and to recognise who genuinely cares for us and wishes us well.

I really hope your daughter doesn’t get hurt by them, but disappointments are a part of life and hopefully this experience will bring her back to you, even if it takes a while.

 

[holyrood]

Have you ever gone to Al-Anon?

Might help; couldn’t hurt.

I went for six months, several years ago, and it helped immensely. I started thinking several months ago that it’s time to go back. The group I went to was great, but a bit of a drive, and I’ve been swamped with so many time pressures, I haven’t done it, yet. But I’m in agreement with you.

It sounds like she has turned against you for some weird reason (and now I’m thinking about the road trip and her siding with the cousin over the money issue.) I think that the best thing you can do is let her find things out on her own and be there if she needs help.

I used to be a bit like her back then, rebelled against my mom and sided with my dad for a while who was a liar and a cheat and the most selfish person ever. But I refused to see him for who he was, refused to listen to her and found all sorts of excuses. I have no idea why I did that. But eventually I had to open my eyes when I got burned. Sometimes we just have to get hurt to smarten up and to recognise who genuinely cares for us and wishes us well.

I really hope your daughter doesn’t get hurt by them, but disappointments are a part of life and hopefully this experience will bring her back to you, even if it takes a while.

ContraMundum, thank you for your wise words. I don’t think she has turned against me really. That was actually the older daughter who sided with the cousin. This is my younger daughter. She had talked to me earlier about her reasons for wanting to move out, and it has a lot to do with her younger brothers, twins who have ADHD and are on the autism spectrum. She’s starting to lose patience with them and feels she needs a break from them now and again. So, I’m not so much worried that she wanted to move out, but more unhappy with her choice of where to go and very unhappy with her method of doing so, the sneaking behind my back. I’m very unhappy that this is a recurring pattern with my family, making plans with my kids as if I don’t exist.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

So, I’m not so much worried that she wanted to move out, but more unhappy with her choice of where to go and very unhappy with her method of doing so, the sneaking behind my back. ** I’m very unhappy that this is a recurring pattern with my family, making plans with my kids as if I don’t exist.**

Yes, this is called “boundary violations,” and “betrayal of trust.” That alone, you need to put a stop to. No secrets, no sneaking. I would start telling your children immediately that you will NOT put up with sneaking behind your back, and that they should know the difference between having integrity and honor, and being sneaky and scared to speak the truth, and facing your decisions.

Too much hidden. Too much unspoken. People like your parents will say anything when they aren’t under scrutiny. If no one is there to catch them in their lies,

 

[Contra_Mundum_1]

ContraMundum, thank you for your wise words. I don’t think she has turned against me really. That was actually the older daughter who sided with the cousin. This is my younger daughter. She had talked to me earlier about her reasons for wanting to move out, and it has a lot to do with her younger brothers, twins who have ADHD and are on the autism spectrum. She’s starting to lose patience with them and feels she needs a break from them now and again. So, I’m not so much worried that she wanted to move out, but more unhappy with her choice of where to go and very unhappy with her method of doing so, the sneaking behind my back. I’m very unhappy that this is a recurring pattern with my family, making plans with my kids as if I don’t exist.

I see. Yes, the last bit is a very serious thing. It could be that she is just very naïve. Kids and teens sometimes idolise people who have been absent from their lives, like I did with my dad. Her grandparents have been absent to a degree, so my guess is that she desires to fill this hole in her heart by ignoring things you have told her in the past.

Is there any other place that she could go to? What are her plans for after high school? It would help if you had a plan B you could suggest to her as a long term solution to her moving out when she asks for help. Because I have no doubts that she will. The grandparents sound like a nightmare and hopefully she will be eager to leave that toxic environment at some point.

And as Juliane suggested, you should not allow sneaking around and deception, and not just for the grandparents situation. There should be consequences for such behaviour.

 

[holyrood]

She’s just graduated high school. Her plan is to work. My dad will probably be on her back soon about getting a better job and going to college. She struggled academically, at least in part due to the health issues. Yes, she is a very naïve 18 year old.