When Two Men Live Together

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Cupofkindness:
I’ve already talked to my priest… It’s the priest running the school that I hope to speak to.

It’s unlikely that I would approach these men first.

And by the term ‘out’ I don’t mean that it’s common knowledge or flaunted or openly discussed, but that many people know about it, like co-workers might know about a single person in a serious dating relationship.

And if these men say they aren’t gay, well, then, game over. I’m either wrong and I would apologize or they are lying, and I would probably apologize anyway.

And for heaven’s sake, TarAshley, I didn’t say YOUR sister! It’s a fact that millions of people receive government assistance, so what’s your point? That not all single parents don’t accept government assistance? Is that news to anyone? Let’s just try to focus on the subject and if you can’t make any contribution to this thread, show a little self-restraint and move on.

So let me repeat myself, in light of the Church’s position on homosexuality and fornication, what do you think I could use in terms of Church documents in a discussion with the head of this school to help support my view that sexually active homosexuals really don’t belong at a Catholic instituion in a position of influence over the children?

By the way, who is Gladys Kravitz?
If you aren’t old enough, you won’t remember. She was the nosey neighbor in the TV series “Bewitched.” She was constantly spying on Darren and Samantha. Of course, it turned out she was right and Samantha was a witch, so there’s that in her favor. Bear in mind, I said it SOUNDED “Gladys Kravitz,” I didn’t say you WERE Gladys Kravitz.
 
Thank you for the clarification on Gladys Kravitz.

Can anyone help me with Church documents pertaining to this matter? Page numbers in the Catechism that address this sort of question?
 
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Cupofkindness:
I’ve already talked to my priest… It’s the priest running the school that I hope to speak to.
What did your priest say? Not that you need to tell us, but I would really consider whatever advice he gave you. You sound like you have the best of intentions, but this is very dangerous ground. If they are openly out, demonstably so, then you should have no problem at all talking to the priest running the school. If they are not, and this is just hearsay, I would pray over this–listen to what God tells you to do.
 
Aurura has a point here cup. only God knows your heart. If you are out to do a kind and charitable thing to protect children God will know that. If you are out to on a witch hunt only God will know that. I agree with her, pray and then discern.
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aurora77:
What did your priest say? Not that you need to tell us, but I would really consider whatever advice he gave you. You sound like you have the best of intentions, but this is very dangerous ground. If they are openly out, demonstably so, then you should have no problem at all talking to the priest running the school. If they are not, and this is just hearsay, I would pray over this–listen to what God tells you to do.
 
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Cupofkindness:
So let me repeat myself, in light of the Church’s position on homosexuality and fornication, what do you think I could use in terms of Church documents in a discussion with the head of this school to help support my view that sexually active homosexuals really don’t belong at a Catholic instituion in a position of influence over the children?

QUOTE]

Chastity and homosexuality

[2357](javascript:openWindow(‘cr/2357.htm’)😉
Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,141 tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."142 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.

2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. **They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition. **

[2359](javascript:openWindow(‘cr/2359.htm’)😉 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.

This is from the Catechism of the Catholic Church…you can get no better documentation as to how to act or how to approach or how to behave…and unless you think these men are behaving in an unchaste manner, and you can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that they are, they may be the best possible example for your children as to how they should - as orthodox Catholic Christians - treat members of the Body of Christ.
 
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BillP:
IF your children ask about this “odd couple” I think it would be the PERFECT opportunity to teach them about Charity and the presumption of innocence and our inability to judge others.
:clapping:

Finally…some common sense. I would be highly suspicious of all the speculation and gossip that surrounds this situation. What role do these men play at the school? You fail to demonstrate how they are a negative influence on the children in the absence of proof of the public and illicit nature of their relationship–other than to note more of the same gossip circulating in the kid population–something which the kids are undoubtedly picking up as their faithful, Catholic parents gossip within earshot.

If you have already brought this to your priest’s attention, I’m not sure why you feel you need to be further involved. If you are dissatified with the response (or apparent lack thereof) you can follow up with him. However, consider that there may be inquiry being made in a private, rather than public, manner and that you may not get, nor should you expect to get, a detailed update from the priest on what could be a very delicate and private matter. In any event, avoid all gossip about these men for your own sake as well as theirs.
 
Finally…some common sense. I would be highly suspicious of all the speculation and gossip that surrounds this situation. What role do these men play at the school? You fail to demonstrate how they are a negative influence on the children in the absence of proof of the public and illicit nature of their relationship–other than to note more of the same gossip circulating in the kid population–something which the kids are undoubtedly picking up as their faithful, Catholic parents gossip within earshot.

If you have already brought this to your priest’s attention, I’m not sure why you feel you need to be further involved. If you are dissatified with the response (or apparent lack thereof) you can follow up with him. However, consider that there may be inquiry being made in a private, rather than public, manner and that you may not get, nor should you expect to get, a detailed update from the priest on what could be a very delicate and private matter. In any event, avoid all gossip about these men for your own sake as well as theirs.
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Not finally, Island Oak; most of us have been saying this all along…but she asked for Catholic Teaching on the subject…so we gave her reference to the Catechism…that is solid Catholic Teaching…that is what the OP wanted. *That (*the Catechism) is common sense.
 
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TarAshly:
No I’d tell you to mind you own business and that you are not the authority of the Church. if its a problem for you ask your priest to go see her. ask your priest what you should do. I am amazed how many people dub themselves the Catholic police and just decide that everyone should live as they live. its not the most charitable way of doing things. If i am not mistaken Felra you started a similar thread about these neighbors of yours and got similiar responses as Cup is getting on this thread… certain things are not your business, I live across the way from some college age kids (i am too) who tend to party every night, and i know that they are not exactly moral martys but i dont go running over to the landlord and tell em “EVICT EM! THEYRE NOT BEING MORAL AND THERE ARE GIRLS OVER THERE OVER NIGHT!” i simply place my statue of Mary in the window, be kind to them and pray for them. thats what we should do. not police everyone to death. just my :twocents:
TarAshly, first you agree with the suggestion of Other Eric to confront this person, then I highly question such a brash approach in absence of concrete and verifiable evidence, and then give you a specific real life example to highlight how unfounded such an approach would present; then you come back with this post and totally contradict yourself by stating “No I’d tell you to mind you own business and that you are not the authority of the Church”; and to add icing on the cake Other Eric chims in to my real life example “Christ does not always ask us to do that which is comfortable”. So which one is it? To confront or not to confront? Why does Cupofkindnes get advised to confront, whereas I get the slammed with the “Catholic police” admonishment to “mind you own business and that you are not the authority of the Church”. You can’t have it both ways.
 
You know, I don’t know where people ever got the idea that I was going to spread falsehoods or gossip. There is no gossip and speculation around this issue at this school. The sad truth is probably that most Catholic families don’t care.

What I don’t understand is why this thread has become a flash point for some people to accuse me of gossiping and spreading false information. Where I have ever said that I’ve told any other person besides my pastor this information? Why some of you are going into overdrive about what’s charitable and what’s not just has me completely puzzled. I am not guilty of anything, I’m just asking a question, I’m not going to publicly humiliate these guys!

I’m not asking about any one’s sister, or aquaintances at work, neighbors or friends, have experienced in light of their own living situation. That is simply not relevant to my problem. Nor have I ever asked you what whether you think there is any truth to what I’ve heard from my sources, who I trust without hesitation. The character of my friends is not up for discussion.

Thank you, Leslie, for your well thought replies, especially the citations from the Catechism. You addressed my questions and for that I am grateful. Thanks to you as welll, Felra, for pointing out the inconguities of some of the other posts. And thanks too to the other posters for your supportive comments. None are overlooked, though I might not mention you by name.
 
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LSK:
Not finally, Island Oak; most of us have been saying this all along…but she asked for Catholic Teaching on the subject…so we gave her reference to the Catechism…that is solid Catholic Teaching…that is what the OP wanted. *That (*the Catechism) is common sense.
The “finally” referred to focusing on the impact of this situation, if any, on the OP’s children and what an appropriate response might be–which was the concern that prompted the thread in the first place, though few posters saw fit to address that issue. As for the rest of your recap-thanks, but having read the thread I wasn’t feeling particularly confused on the chronology of events.
 
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Cupofkindness:
My original post was not what anyone thought about the information pertaining to the two men in question. Since I don’t doubt my sources, and since I’m not going to give anymore information about them on a public forum, the matter of whether the information is true or not really isn’t the reason I started this thread.

I feel like I’m on trial here. All I am looking for is specific Church documents or teachings pertaining to this matter, not everyone’s opinion about two men, their sexual preferences, their living situation or my personal views on homosexuality. And while I find the stories about other odd living situations interesting, they don’t address my concerns. My problem is that in all likelihood gay men are quietly “out” at a Catholic school. Why would anyone think I would stoop so low as to spread unfounded gossip? I am thinking of making a very major change in the life of my children, why would I be so cavalier about such an important issue as this one?

This is not a joke and I must admit that I feel that some of you are trivializing this matter with comments that are not appropriate.

If you don’t have anything to post that will move this discussion forward, please begin a new thread to air your concerns about side issues raised on this thread. Thank you. And to those of you who have addressed my concerns, I appreciate your help.
I don’t believe any here is intentionally trying to trivialize this. But the fact is that you want our advice about what you should do, and this could cause someone to loose their job or make their life a living hell if, *if *in fact, they aren’t gay.

So we need the facts so we can make an honest suggestion. Let us know these surefire facts so we can give sound advise.
 
Island Oak:

I appreciate your perspective on every thread I find one of your posts. To answer your question, these men are school counselors.

I’ve already decide the approach I will take on this matter. I will speak to the priest that is the head of this particular order in my community. He is not the same man who is the head of the school. Nor is he my pastor. I plan to go to this priest and tell him that I have heard from two reliable sources, one being a student and another being an employee of the school, that these two men are gay and living together. I will ask him to please explain why I might be hearing this information from two very distinct sources, and telling this priest that I am inclined to believe these sources because I know them to be good people who would not defame someone’s character. I will ask him if he can say anything about these two men that would shed light on this matter up for me, and invite him to clear these men’s “good names” if these rumors are malicious lies. I will tell him that I believe this could have an adverse affect on the students, and on my children in particular, which should explain why I’m raising this issue at all.

If this priest can not help me with this very serious problem then I’ll go to the headmaster.
 
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Cupofkindness:
What I don’t understand is why this thread has become a flash point for some people to accuse me of gossiping and spreading false information. Where I have ever said that I’ve told any other person besides my pastor this information? Why some of you are going into overdrive about what’s charitable and what’s not just has me completely puzzled. I am not guilty of anything, I’m just asking a question, I’m not going to publicly humiliate these guys!
The final comment in my post to avoid gossip was not an accusation. I mentioned it only because I am all too aware that when we are concerned about an issue that has the potential to affect our children, it can become a topic of discussion fairly quickly. I admire and commend you for trying to go about this in an honorable way.
 
This whole thread displays exactly my concern that I have posted in other threads. I would recommend some reading of Fr. Groeschel’s books. Having witnessed the groups Courage in action there are some former homosexual couples who now abstain but continue to share room and board. Is this a sin? Not if they adhere to church teaching. Can we not allow two men to live together anymore without assuming they’re in a sexual relationship.
 
Cupofkindness, I understand that your concern is for your children being exposed to something that might not be in the best interest for them. Good for you!!
 
I think you are right to be concerned. Even if these two men are not objectively sinning, the rumor mill seems to have been grinding for years and is leading children in their care to believe (however wrongly) that they are openly living in defiance of church doctrine.

Anytime a heterosexual on here talks about an intention to live as brother and sister in a pre-marital relationship, this board overwhelming strongly councils against the couple doing so. The sin of scandal is cited over and over as to why they would not be objectively sinning, but would be sinning in appearances only. This, in and of itself, is enough for the board participants to come up with plenty of creative alternatives to avoid the situation.

While charity would lead you to not assume that they are homosexual without further evidence, the appearance of it to all involved (including the children in their care) is most definitely scandalous. I would therefore recommend that your approach be from this angle.

“I do not know what their sexual orientation is. However, I am concerned about the scandal that is being caused in the school. I hear children and parents alike discussing the issue, often times in pejorative terms. I am concerned for these men’s reputation as I do not believe they deserve this treatment. I would like to protect their reputation, the school’s reputation, and the faith of our children. Do you have any ideas how we can address this issue?”

Being charitable does not mean turning a blind eye to what is most definitely a problem (the children believing that the church and school is supportive of an openly gay couple). If they are not gay, or the church/school is not supportive then the solution to the problem might be different than if they are openly gay. However, it does not change the root problem in the first place.
 
Dear Cup of K,
I don’t blame you for being concerned, esp in this day of moral relativism. After all, you’re paying good money to send your children to a school that upholds Catholic values.

Let me just relate to you about a teacher I had in High School. He was gay, I’m certain of that. He was my Spanish teacher in 11th grade. He was very flamboyant and dramatic, and acted out all the verb tenses of Spanish with flair. He was also buddy, buddy with another teacher at the school who also appeared to be gay.

I can’t remember my teacher’s name off hand. But, he was an excellent teacher. I remember that he was of Castillian Jewish decent, so he spoke Spanish with that Castillian lisp, which really suited him, since he did have a slight lisp. He was a talented teacher. I really loved his class. I don’t think the fact that he was gay really affected me one way or another. What affected me at that age was the fact that my father was living with a 23 year old Cuban girl, and hadn’t called me in months, and my stepfather was a cruel tyrant who lorded over me mercilessly, and had my mother intimidated and cowed.

Anyways, that’s my personal experience with a teacher who was gay. I thought he was an inspiring teacher who taught Spanish very well and I have fond memories of that class.
 
Tinkerbell and Forest-Pine, thank you for your replies. Spiritblows, I hear where your coming from and I’m sorry for your childhood experiences. I have suffered the same sort of things from the various “arrangements” my divorced parents had as I was growing up in San Francisco during the 1970s. And since I grew up in that part of the country, I have had more than my fair share of experiences with gay men, including gay teachers (my French teacher). And I would say that a lone gay teacher wouldn’t upset me so much per se, it’s just that two gay counselors living together at a Catholic school that I find so deeply objectionable. Should the boys at this school have these men held up as role models who are there to help them sort out their direction in life? Why can’t the school hire good Catholic men who are happily married with children? And you’re right, it costs us dearly to send our children to this school.
 
Dear Cup of K,
The school is probably influenced by the attitudes of the larger society and thinks that they shouldn’t be ‘judgemental’ and must show their ‘tolerance’. Unfortunately, the mass media, which is in the hands of those with liberal values, has brainwashed much of our society on this matter.

I agree with you, it’s a public scandal. Unfortunately, the school is probably also concerned with legal matters that will influence this decision. They might be opening themselves up for a lawsuit if they fired these men in our current climate we live in.

I think it’s naive of anyone to think that if 2 men have bought a house together, that they’re just roomates, btw. That’s totally unrealistic thinking, IMO.
 
Cup of Kindness, You are doing the right thing as a Mother, to many times we turn a “blind eye” to the situation until things get so out of control and we sit back and wonder “gee, how did it get this way?” It is not gossip but a true concern of yours as a mother and I would definately see the Priest in charge about it and if no satifaction is reached then go to the head of Catholic Education in your Diocese and demand action now. Gay men have no place in a Catholic School, and if I offend anyone, sorry but these are our children and our future. We have no real control in the Public Schools, but I would even voice a concern if someone had an openly gay lifestyle and flaunted it by my children, and demand his/her class be changed to another teacher.
 
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