When was Lucifer cast out?

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Nelka

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Before or after Adam was created?

If before, where did he go? To Hell? Why was he allowed to cross over?

Thanks.
 
In Scripture and in Catholic theology this word has come to mean much the same as devil and denotes one of the evil spirits or fallen angels. And in fact in some places in the New Testament where the Vulgate, in agreement with the Greek, has daemonium, our vernacular versions read devil. The precise distinction between the two terms in ecclesiastical usage may be seen in the phrase used in the decree of the Fourth Lateran Council: “Diabolus enim et alii daemones” (The devil and the other demons), i.e. all are demons, and the chief of the demons is called the devil. This distinction is observed in the Vulgate New Testament, where diabolus represents the Greek diabolos and in almost every instance refers to Satan himself, while his subordinate angels are described, in accordance with the Greek, as daemones or daemonia. This must not be taken, however, to indicate a difference of nature; for Satan is clearly included among the daemones in James 2:19 and in Luke 11:15-18.
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But though the word demon is now practically restricted to this sinister sense, it was otherwise with the earlier usage of the Greek writers. The word, which is apparently derived from daio “to divide” or “apportion”, originally meant a divine being; it was occasionally applied to the higher gods and goddesses, but was more generally used to denote spiritual beings of a lower order coming between gods and men. For the most part these were beneficent beings, and their office was somewhat analogous to that of the angels in Christian theology. Thus the adjective eydaimon “happy”, properly meant one who was guided and guarded by a good demon. Some of these Greek demons, however, were evil and malignant. Hence we have the counterpart to eudamonia “happiness”, in kakodaimonia which denoted misfortune, or in its more original meaning, being under the possession of an evil demon. In the Greek of the New Testament and in the language of the early Fathers, the word was already restricted to the sinister sense, which was natural enough, now that even the higher gods of the Greeks had come to be regarded as devils.
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We have a curious instance of the confusion caused by the ambiguity and variations in the meaning of the word, in the case of the celebrated “Daemon” of Socrates. This has been understood in a bad sense by some Christian writers who have made it a matter of reproach that the great Greek philosopher was accompanied and prompted by a demon. But, as Cardinal Manning clearly shows in his paper on the subject, the word here has a very different meaning. He points to the fact that both Plato and Xenophon use the form daimonion, which Cicero rightly renders as divinum aliguid, “something divine”. And after a close examination of the account of the matter given by Socrates himself in the reports transmitted by his disciples, he concludes that the promptings of the “Daemon” were the dictates of conscience, which is the voice of God.
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It may be observed that a similar change and deterioration of meaning has taken place in the Iranian languages in the case of the word daeva. Etymologically this is identical with the Sanskrit deva, by which it is rendered in Neriosengh’s version of the Avesta. But whereas the devas of Indian theology are good and beneficent gods, the daevas of the Avesta are hateful spirits of evil. (See also DEMONOLOGY.)
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That was taken from the website, New Advent, when I looked up Lucifer. I hope that helps. God bless.
 
Lucifer was cast our “before” time was created, so the word “when” doesn’t quite have meaning :D.
 
Actually, if you notice in the book of Job, Satan was able to come and go as he pleased in heaven. He presents himself before God to accuse Job, so it stands to reason that he was not yet “cast out”. After the death and resurrection of Christ I believe mankind was redeemed and Satan and death were conquered once and for all.
 
An ancient myth[6] of the fall of angels, associated with the Morning Star, was transferred to the Devil, as seen in the Life of Adam and Eve and the Second Book of Enoch,[7] which the Jewish Encyclopedia attributes to the first pre-Christian century.[8] In these writings, Satan-Sataniel (sometimes identified with Samael) is described as having been one of the archangels. Because he contrived “to make his throne higher than the clouds over the earth and resemble ‘My power’ on high”, Satan-Sataniel was hurled down, with his hosts of angels, and since then, he has been flying in the air continually above the abyss.[6]
The Early Christian writers Tertullian (“Contra Marcionem,” v. 11, 17), Origen (Homilies on Ezekiel 13), and others identify Lucifer with the Devil, who also is represented as being “cast down from heaven” (Revelation 12:7–10; cf. Luke 10:18).[6]
Today, some contemporary exorcists and theologians, such as Father José Antonio Fortea and Father Amorth, assert that Lucifer and the Devil are different beings.[9] Wiki
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In the Book of Job Satan is not necessarily evil - he is the “advocate” and one of the Heavenly Council.
 
triumphguy said:
In the Book of Job Satan is not necessarily evil - he is the “advocate” and one of the Heavenly Council.
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Right, so is this the same “devil” from genesis? If so, it doesn’t seem that his tempting of Adam and Eve was enough to get him thrown out of heaven.
 
There are different scriptural traditions in the OT, and while they all speak the same Truth, they are not necessarily threads of the same story.

The OT talks more about the necessity to follow God’s will than it does in describing the person of the devil, or explaining whether the Serpent, Satan or the devil are one and the same, or how they differ. The OT does not I believe even mention Lucifer, who is introduced into the literature in the first century in manuscripts that did not become part of the canon.
 
This is an interesting question, with some varieties of interpretation.

Straight up, the King James Version of the Bible translates Isaiah 14:12 as “How far art thou fallen, O Lucifer, son of the morning.”

Now, Isaiah 14:3 in the RSV-2CE describes 14:12 as part of a taunt against the King of Babylon. But, the KJV seems to want to indicate in its translation, that the King of Babylon is merely symbolic of Lucifer, and so it goes all the way to put in the substitution of “Lucifer” in the verse.

The current version of the Jewish Tanakh from the Jewish Publication Society translates that verse as " How are you fallen from heaven, O Shining One, son of Dawn! How are you felled to earth, O vanquisher of nations!

It also translates Isaiah 14:3 as depicting 14:12 as “scorn” over the King of Babylon, but,
in footnote, it says that the “shining one, son of the dawn” is a character in a lost myth.

Catholics regard angels as beings with free will, who rebelled in pride against God, and were cast out of heaven. Jews (generally – there is no central authority in Judaism) believe that angels do NOT possess free will, so they regard Satan as actually created by God, but I’m not sure when that creation is supposed to have taken place.

Back to the KJV explanation. When Lucifer and the other demons were cast out of heaven, they fell to earth, which provides the explanation why the earth was formless and void, at the beginning of Genesis. There was also darkness. God’s creation was to overturn those effects of Satan on the earth.

This is a brief stab at an explanation. It doesn’t answer the questions that immediately follow from the title question.

I don’t think the previous post about Satan in the book of Job is of any consequence. It is what it says, but I don’t think, being cast out, demons can come and go freely into the presence of God. That contradicts the notion of being cast out. There must be a different explanation for that.
 
That’s the point - Satan was not cast out in the Book of Job, he was part of the Heavenly Council, and had a job as “devil’s advocate” if you will.

.
 
Crumpy said:
This is an interesting question, with some varieties of interpretation.

Straight up, the King James Version of the Bible translates Isaiah 14:12 as “How far art thou fallen, O Lucifer, son of the morning.”

Now, Isaiah 14:3 in the RSV-2CE describes 14:12 as part of a taunt against the King of Babylon. But, the KJV seems to want to indicate in its translation, that the King of Babylon is merely symbolic of Lucifer, and so it goes all the way to put in the substitution of “Lucifer” in the verse.

The current version of the Jewish Tanakh from the Jewish Publication Society translates that verse as " How are you fallen from heaven, O Shining One, son of Dawn! How are you felled to earth, O vanquisher of nations!

Lucifer simply means morning star so the translation to Lucifer is justifiable. In fact it was Jerome who translated this to Lucifer in the Latin Vulgate. The KJV merely retains that word.
Crumpy;8792423:
Back to the KJV explanation. When Lucifer and the other demons were cast out of heaven, they fell to earth, which provides the explanation why the earth was formless and void, at the beginning of Genesis. There was also darkness. God’s creation was to overturn those effects of Satan on the earth.
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Crumpy said:
This is old earth theory which has no precedent in either Jewish or Christian tradition.
Fixing up a wrecked earth is not a creation it is a renovation.

This is a brief stab at an explanation. It doesn’t answer the questions that immediately follow from the title question.

I don’t think the previous post about Satan in the book of Job is of any consequence. It is what it says, but I don’t think, being cast out, demons can come and go freely into the presence of God. That contradicts the notion of being cast out. There must be a different explanation for that.
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You seem to be fixed in your opinion that Satan was cast out before the Creation but then you bump your head on the obvious problem of Job where a cast out angel cannot come and go to heaven.

It is a matter of simple logic that if Satan was in heaven at the time of Job, that he was cast out after that.
 
Bump MY head? My RSV-2CE doesn’t say that Satan was in heaven. (I did fall out of a car at age five, onto the street, at 25 mph.)

That’s a deep question about where God is. But, I don’t believe that Job proves that Satan was in heaven.

the Jewish commentaries that I’ve read indicate a paradox about the location of God, or at least a paradox about where they think that God is.

Because the OT uses seven Hebrew words for heaven, they infer that there are seven zones or levels of heaven. They claim that the depth of each level of heaven is the distance that a man could travel in 500 years, and that G-d is in the highest or 7th heaven. On the other hand, G-d is close and can hear a prayer that is whispered.
 
Revelation 12 clearly describes this event christnotes.org/bible.php?q=Revelation+12
The way I read it there were two events. The first event is where the devil, the dragon, Satan drags a third of the angels to earth to fight against the woman who is giving birth to the man child. This is a clear reference to the birth of Christ to Mary and the attacks of Herod upon the innocents. But it seems that his work of accusing the brethren which he was performing in the book of Job continues into the New Testament period because it describes him in heaven accusing the brethren. In fact this is written in about 90AD and the apostle John specifically states that the accuser of OUR brethren is cast down. So clearly there is a period in the New Testament during which Christians are accused by Satan in heaven.

After that there is war in heaven and Satan and his angels are cast down to earth, heaven rejoices and woe is upon the earth because Satan is now on earth, and what does he do? He attacks Christians in vs 17. So it is during the NT period that Satan is cast out of heaven. When, during the NT period this occurred (assuming that John is not describing a prophecy still in our future) I am not sure.

Isaiah 14 is a prophecy of a time future to Isaiah which was foreshadowed by the King of Babylon. However clearly Lucifer was sinning for a long time, even before the creation of the world, before he was finally thrown to earth.
 
petrel said:
Revelation 12 clearly describes this event christnotes.org/bible.php?q=Revelation+12
The way I read it there were two events. The first event is where the devil, the dragon, Satan drags a third of the angels to earth to fight against the woman who is giving birth to the man child. This is a clear reference to the birth of Christ to Mary and the attacks of Herod upon the innocents. But it seems that his work of accusing the brethren which he was performing in the book of Job continues into the New Testament period because it describes him in heaven accusing the brethren. In fact this is written in about 90AD and the apostle John specifically states that the accuser of OUR brethren is cast down. So clearly there is a period in the New Testament during which Christians are accused by Satan in heaven.

After that there is war in heaven and Satan and his angels are cast down to earth, heaven rejoices and woe is upon the earth because Satan is now on earth, and what does he do? He attacks Christians in vs 17. So it is during the NT period that Satan is cast out of heaven. When, during the NT period this occurred (assuming that John is not describing a prophecy still in our future) I am not sure.

Isaiah 14 is a prophecy of a time future to Isaiah which was foreshadowed by the King of Babylon. However clearly Lucifer was sinning for a long time, even before the creation of the world, before he was finally thrown to earth.
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Yes. Personally, I think it only makes sense that after Christ’s work was done, the door to Heaven would be closed to Satan forever. Perhaps that is when he was “cast out” never to be allowed in God’s presence again?
 
LaSainte said:
Yes. Personally, I think it only makes sense that after Christ’s work was done, the door to Heaven would be closed to Satan forever. Perhaps that is when he was “cast out” never to be allowed in God’s presence again?
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It can’t have been after Jesus was on earth because he said:

Luke 10:18 He said to them, ‘I watched Satan fall like lightning from heaven.’
 
Lucifer was cast out right after he said, *“OK Michael, you want a piece of me? Come get some!” *

:extrahappy:

Seriously though, I agree with Petrel’s post.
 
Nelka said:
It can’t have been after Jesus was on earth because he said:

Luke 10:18 He said to them, ‘I watched Satan fall like lightning from heaven.’
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Jesus also said this
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am” John 8:58

As someone previously pointed out, these are both references to an event which actually occurs outside time and space and are in the eternal domain. So in a sense, even as Christ was begotten before the world began, so too was Satan cast out from heaven before the world began. However from our perspective in our time domain there is probably a point in history where Satan was cast out of history, just as from our perspective in our time domain Christ was begotten in Judaea 2000 years ago.

Note: The Nicene Creed states “begotten of his Father before all worlds”
and “eternally begotten of the Father”.

I certainly don’t pretend to be making a dogmatic declaration of when (from our time perspective) Satan and his angels were cast out of heaven, and I am happy (on this if not so many other subjects I encounter here on CAF) to accomodate different views on the subject.
 
And there is Luke 22:31-32
31 “Simon, Simon, behold Satan has demanded to sift all of you like wheat,
32 but I have prayed that your own faith may not fail; and once you have turned back, you must strengthen your brothers.”

Perhaps in the infinite love and mercy of God Satan can sometimes and with God’s permission come and go into heaven (while heavily surrounded and guarded by angels such as Michael) until he is finally thrown into and locked in the abyss (rev chapter 20)?

God bless you.
 
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