When was the belief in the Bible alone first mentioned?

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Did the protestant church come up with some doctrines that were in conflict,
Sola Scriptura isn’t in scripture
Sola fide is in scripture but NOT BY is in front of it. James 2:24

iow, those protestant sola doctrines conflict with scripture.

There’s many more issues as you know that conflict as well
 
Sola Scriptura isn’t in scripture
Sola fide is in scripture but NOT BY is in front of it. James 2:24

iow, those protestant sola doctrines conflict with scripture.

There’s many more issues as you know that conflict as well
Yes, I agree.

I read the thread and it seems curious to me that no one has mentioned the ending of St. John’s Gospel, where he says, not once, but twice, that he thinks all the books in the world could not contain adequate record of all the works (miracles) of Our Lord, because He did so many of them, most of which are not recorded in Scripture. (Cf. Jn. 20:30; 21:35)

Consequently, certainly there might well be lessons found in specific works or parables or miracles or lessons of Jesus that would provide more emphasis at least on the doctrines that the Bible does convey literally. But more so, the doctrines of the Church that are only implicitly contained in Scripture but are explicitly found in Sacred Tradition, are doctrines eligible therefore to be dogmatically defined, since they are in both the Bible and in Tradition, while being at least explicitly in one even if merely implicitly in the other.
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Hi Zenk,

…

To answer your specific question, ***the great ***Calvinist Theologian R. C. Sproul comments:
…

God Bless You Zenk, Topper
:confused::confused:The ‘great’??? :confused::confused:

:eek:

Sproul is a virulent heretical fool (and his son is even worse). Heck, the very quote you posted, bears this out glaringly:
“…Two of the great legacies of the Reformation were the principal of private interpretation and the translation of the Bible into the vernacular…”
:rolleyes:

The Catholic Church had long before the reformation, published the Bible ‘in the vernacular’. That is such a patently historical falsehood, as to be either a bald faced lie, or a grotesque confession of collosal ignorance.
 
:confused::confused:The ‘great’??? :confused::confused:

:eek:

Sproul is a virulent heretical fool (and his son is even worse). Heck, the very quote you posted, bears this out glaringly:

:rolleyes:

The Catholic Church had long before the reformation, published the Bible ‘in the vernacular’. That is such a patently historical falsehood, as to be either a bald faced lie, or a grotesque confession of collosal ignorance.
Calvinists consider Sproul to be one of the greatest of Theologians ever. Personally I think that you can’t be considered even a fair Theologian if you believed in and taught Private Interpretation.

On the other hand if doctrinal chaos is the goal, along with the destruction of Christian unity, then maybe Sproul was a genius.

God bless you Goy, Topper
 
Hi Zenk,

Over the course of the first 1500 years of Christian history there were plenty of people/groups who challenged the authority of the Catholic Church. Some of the individuals were Arius and Montanus. The groups that they founded were, specifically, the Arians, and the Montanists. Of course there have been a whole alphabet soup of heretics and heresies. Their doctrinal teachings are extremely diverse, but the one thing that they all had in common is their refusal to abide by the doctrinal teachings of the Catholic Church. What would they ‘substitute’ in the place of the Church? What else could they ‘use’ to supposedly justify their teachings except Scripture and their own radical interpretations?
True, and just to name a few of The Great Heresies
T:
That being said, did any of these groups specifically espouse Sola Scriptura in the manner that Protestantism did and has? The answer appears to be: “not really”.
True. Protestantism can take full credit for SS… and let’s no forget, that is after they first removed 7 books :rolleyes: sheesh!
T:
So, what is the evidence that Sola Scriptura, and Private Interpretation were ‘developed’ or invented by Luther? The “Follow up on SS” thread on the Non-Catholic Forum has been delving into this question now for about the last month, with dozens and dozens of respected Scholars being quoted (mostly Lutherans and other Protestants).
Here’s how I would answer it.

Re: **Sola Scriptura, **
  • there was no official NT canon till 381 a.d. at the council of Rome. So that shoots holes in the possible notion of SS for the first 300 years. Afterall, one can’t make something their sole source of practice when that sole source is not official yet.
  • So the next and real question is, what happened AFTER the canon of scripture was established (i.e. post 381 a.d.) , did the Church THEN, depend on scripture ALONE? If it did, where is the evidence for that, properly documented of course? If SS was EVER the practice, scripture would say it as well. It doesn’t say that. As far as what scripture says about traditions, both oral and written, they are BOTH to be held and stand firm to, meaning both are authoritative and neither is Alone. [2 Thessalonians 2:15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2 Thessalonians+2:15&version=RSVCE)
Re: Interpretation of scripture, whether (private / one’s own / individual ) that has never been taught by the CC and it also contradicts scripture…

**2 Pet 1:**20 First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, 21 because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.[h](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2 Peter+1&version=RSVCE#fen-RSVCE-34658h)]

the NT scriptures were written in, by, for, and canonized by the Catholic Church. Therefore, it’s appropriate the CC is THE official interpreter of her own book.
 
Calvinists consider Sproul to be one of the greatest of Theologians ever.
That’s vastly overstated. Some may talk that way, but most Calvinists of my acquaintance would have a lot of theologians in history that they’d put above Sproul: Augustine, Athanasius, Anselm (probably even Aquinas), Luther, Calvin, John Owen, Jonathan Edwards, Charles Hodge, Abraham Kuyper. . . .

And there are many different kinds of Calvinists. A particular kind of “neo-Puritan” Calvinist does really love Sproul. But even they see him as simply someone who restates the truths taught by the luminaries I mentioned above and many others.
 
In answer to the OP question: Luther himself claimed that he taught nothing about sola scriptura that went beyond what he had learned at the University of Erfurt from his professor Jodocus Trutvetter.

I think the problem with answering this question is that the positive elements of sola scriptura are to be found in pre-Reformation tradition. What was new about sola scriptura was the distrust of the Church. Even that wasn’t entirely new–folks like Wycliffe and Hus had already identified the true Church with the elect, and some relatively more mainstream (but still controversial) figures like William Ockham (in whose tradition Trutvetter stood) had said somewhat similar things.

But essentially sola scriptura is the scholastic doctrine of the material sufficiency of Scripture as the authoritative theology textbook with the medieval belief in the authority of the institutional Church stripped away.

Edwin
 
Hi Conta,

Thanks for your response.
That’s vastly overstated. Some may talk that way, but most Calvinists of my acquaintance would have a lot of theologians in history that they’d put above Sproul: Augustine, Athanasius, Anselm (probably even Aquinas), Luther, Calvin, John Owen, Jonathan Edwards, Charles Hodge, Abraham Kuyper. . . .

And there are many different kinds of Calvinists. A particular kind of “neo-Puritan” Calvinist does really love Sproul. But even they see him as simply someone who restates the truths taught by the luminaries I mentioned above and many others.
As a matter of fact, a friend of mine (a Calvinist) was, and is a family friend of R. C. Sproul. He used the term “Great” as something of a ‘title’ when describing him.

Of course, especially within Protestantism, one man’s “Great Theologian”, or to use your term ‘luminary’, is another man’s Fool. Who decides which is which? So much is left to the opinion of the individual. Far too much actually.

As a matter of fact, Sproul wrote about 60 books, but then if you don’t happen to agree with his theology, then you might decide that about all he really accomplished is to unintentionally mislead people.

God Bless You Conta
 
Hi Conta,

Thanks for your response.

As a matter of fact, a friend of mine (a Calvinist) was, and is a family friend of R. C. Sproul. He used the term “Great” as something of a ‘title’ when describing him.

Of course, especially within Protestantism, one man’s “Great Theologian”, or to use your term ‘luminary’, is another man’s Fool. Who decides which is which? So much is left to the opinion of the individual. Far too much actually.

As a matter of fact, Sproul wrote about 60 books, but then if you don’t happen to agree with his theology, then you might decide that about all he really accomplished is to unintentionally mislead people.

God Bless You Conta
Of course he has his admirers, but even his most fervent admirers would see him as one of the best living theologians, not one of the greatest of all time. He’s not an original thinker–of course, if you are a conservative of a certain sort you don’t want original thinkers 🙂

I think Sproul is a thoughtful, solid representative of conservative Calvinism. He’s hardly a “violent heretical fool” as another poster called him. But there are a lot more interesting theologians out there.

Edwin
 
Hi Edwin,

Thanks for your response.
In answer to the OP question: Luther himself claimed that he taught nothing about sola scriptura that went beyond what he had learned at the University of Erfurt from his professor Jodocus Trutvetter.

I think the problem with answering this question is that the positive elements of sola scriptura are to be found in pre-Reformation tradition. What was new about sola scriptura was the distrust of the Church. Even that wasn’t entirely new–folks like Wycliffe and Hus had already identified the true Church with the elect, and some relatively more mainstream (but still controversial) figures like William Ockham (in whose tradition Trutvetter stood) had said somewhat similar things.

But essentially sola scriptura is the scholastic doctrine of the material sufficiency of Scripture as the authoritative theology textbook with the medieval belief in the authority of the institutional Church stripped away.

Edwin
I am not familiar with Luther’s claim that his teaching on SS went no further than what he had learned from Trutfetter. Could you please provide the reference so I can check it out?

In fact, IF Luther actually did make that claim, he would have to have realized that it was false. After all, very early in his ‘reformation’ (1518) Trudfetter solidly rebuked him. The two never did reconcile. It would have been impossible for Luther to have believed that he was following Trutfetter’s teaching on SS.

“Some time during the early spring of 1518 Luther had received a letter from his former professor of philosophy at the University of Erfurt, Jodocus Trutfetter, a man whom he deeply respected and who had expected great service to the Church from so able a mind and so strong a personality as Luther. Now Professor Trutfetter solemnly warned his former student against the path he was taking, urging him to turn back before it was too late. On May 9 Luther replied: ‘To speak plainly, my firm belief is that the reform of the Church is impossible unless the ecclesiastical laws, the papal regulations, scholastic theology, philosophy and logic as the at present exist, are thoroughly uprooted.’ Such uprooting, he said, had now become his fixed purpose, ‘a resolution from which neither your authority, although it is certainly of the greatest weight for me, much less than that of any others, can turn me aside.’ Martin Luther, (Carrol quoting Fife, ‘Revolt of Martin Luther’, pg. 267)

This is one of the most important of the thousands of letters Luther wrote in his long, full lifetime. It reveals that as early as May 1518 he was essentially committed to the destruction of the Church as he knew it, though he had not yet proceeded to total public defiance of all Church authority. It shows his revolutionary temper, his purpose to ‘uproot’ rather than simply to reform, which is the goal of every revolutionary. It provides our first evidence that the upheaval to come was rightly to be called a revolt or a revolution, not a ‘reformation’. It also shows Luther in the act of coldly and deliberately breaking a bond whose quality and strength only the dedicated teacher and his former student know: the love and loyalty that emanate from their memories of each other.

Luther wrote this letter just before completing his defense in Latin of his position on indulgences. He sent a copy to the Pope with a cover letter, later printed with is as a preface. IN the preface he says that he ‘cannot recant’ from his position on indulgences, yet still insists on his willingness to listen to Leo X ‘as the ‘Voice of Christ’, who presides in him and speaks through him…….enliven me, kill me, call me back, confirm me, reject me, just as it pleases you’……despite the fact that in the text itself, sent with this letter, he had flatly and insultingly declared: ‘I do not care what pleases or displeases the Pope. He is just a man like other men. There have been many Popes inclined to errors, vices, and even very strange things.’

In mid-June the papal procurator, Mario de Perusco, made a formal charge of heresy against Luther – not for condemning the granting of indulgences for money, which the Church itself, through the Council of Trent, was later also to condemn, but for denying the existence of the treasury of grace and questioning the authority of the Pope. In early July Luther was summoned to appear at Rome for trial within sixty days. He responded with his characteristic defiance, declaring that he would not accept excommunication if the Church decreed it for him. On July 25 he reiterated that defiance, along with references to ‘eternal predestination,’ in another sermon before Duke George of Saxony and his court. Shouting matches broke out afterward between Luther and professors defending scholastic theology. Undoubtedly the entire academic brawl deepened Duke George’s concern about the damage Luther was already doing and much greater damage he was capable of doing.” William H. Carroll, “The Cleaving of Christendom’, pg. 7-8

As we have seen on this thread, it was Luther who introduced Sola Scriptura and also Private Interpretation. They were NOT things which he learned from his teachers. Furthermore, rather than Luther wanting to ‘reform’ the Church, this quote shows that even in early 1518, he was committed to uprooting the ‘ecclesiastical laws, the papal regulations, scholastic theology, philosophy and logic as the at presently exist.’

Luther’s letter to Trutfetter shows him to be bent on the destruction of the Church rather than as a ‘reformer’. In addition, it shows that he could NOT have believed that Trutfetter supported Sola Scriptura or any of Luther’s other radical innovations. That being said, I am still very much interested in the reference which says that Luther believed that he learned SS from Trutfetter.

God Bless You Edwin, Topper
 
Hi Edwin,

Thanks for your response.

I am not familiar with Luther’s claim that his teaching on SS went no further than what he had learned from Trutfetter. Could you please provide the reference so I can check it out?

In fact, IF Luther actually did make that claim, he would have to have realized that it was false. After all, very early in his ‘reformation’ (1518) Trudfetter solidly rebuked him. The two never did reconcile. It would have been impossible for Luther to have believed that he was following Trutfetter’s teaching on SS.

“Some time during the early spring of 1518 Luther had received a letter from his former professor of philosophy at the University of Erfurt, Jodocus Trutfetter, a man whom he deeply respected and who had expected great service to the Church from so able a mind and so strong a personality as Luther. Now Professor Trutfetter solemnly warned his former student against the path he was taking, urging him to turn back before it was too late. On May 9 Luther replied: ‘To speak plainly, my firm belief is that the reform of the Church is impossible unless the ecclesiastical laws, the papal regulations, scholastic theology, philosophy and logic as the at present exist, are thoroughly uprooted.’ Such uprooting, he said, had now become his fixed purpose, ‘a resolution from which neither your authority, although it is certainly of the greatest weight for me, much less than that of any others, can turn me aside.’ Martin Luther, (Carrol quoting Fife, ‘Revolt of Martin Luther’, pg. 267)

This is one of the most important of the thousands of letters Luther wrote in his long, full lifetime. It reveals that as early as May 1518 he was essentially committed to the destruction of the Church as he knew it, though he had not yet proceeded to total public defiance of all Church authority. It shows his revolutionary temper, his purpose to ‘uproot’ rather than simply to reform, which is the goal of every revolutionary. It provides our first evidence that the upheaval to come was rightly to be called a revolt or a revolution, not a ‘reformation’. It also shows Luther in the act of coldly and deliberately breaking a bond whose quality and strength only the dedicated teacher and his former student know: the love and loyalty that emanate from their memories of each other.

Luther wrote this letter just before completing his defense in Latin of his position on indulgences. He sent a copy to the Pope with a cover letter, later printed with is as a preface. IN the preface he says that he ‘cannot recant’ from his position on indulgences, yet still insists on his willingness to listen to Leo X ‘as the ‘Voice of Christ’, who presides in him and speaks through him…….enliven me, kill me, call me back, confirm me, reject me, just as it pleases you’……despite the fact that in the text itself, sent with this letter, he had flatly and insultingly declared: ‘I do not care what pleases or displeases the Pope. He is just a man like other men. There have been many Popes inclined to errors, vices, and even very strange things.’

In mid-June the papal procurator, Mario de Perusco, made a formal charge of heresy against Luther – not for condemning the granting of indulgences for money, which the Church itself, through the Council of Trent, was later also to condemn, but for denying the existence of the treasury of grace and questioning the authority of the Pope. In early July Luther was summoned to appear at Rome for trial within sixty days. He responded with his characteristic defiance, declaring that he would not accept excommunication if the Church decreed it for him. On July 25 he reiterated that defiance, along with references to ‘eternal predestination,’ in another sermon before Duke George of Saxony and his court. Shouting matches broke out afterward between Luther and professors defending scholastic theology. Undoubtedly the entire academic brawl deepened Duke George’s concern about the damage Luther was already doing and much greater damage he was capable of doing.” William H. Carroll, “The Cleaving of Christendom’, pg. 7-8

As we have seen on this thread, it was Luther who introduced Sola Scriptura and also Private Interpretation. They were NOT things which he learned from his teachers. Furthermore, rather than Luther wanting to ‘reform’ the Church, this quote shows that even in early 1518, he was committed to uprooting the ‘ecclesiastical laws, the papal regulations, scholastic theology, philosophy and logic as the at presently exist.’

Luther’s letter to Trutfetter shows him to be bent on the destruction of the Church rather than as a ‘reformer’. In addition, it shows that he could NOT have believed that Trutfetter supported Sola Scriptura or any of Luther’s other radical innovations. That being said, I am still very much interested in the reference which says that Luther believed that he learned SS from Trutfetter.

God Bless You Edwin, Topper
here’s a look at how the Church not only delt with Luther’s errors, but how Luther responded.

  1. *]Leo X lists Luther’s errors http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Leo10/l10exdom.htm
    *]then came the excommunication, (1 yr later) Decet Romanum Pontificem http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Leo10/l10decet.htm
    *]we also see Luther’s answer to the other sola he invented. Luther merely said “Luther will have it so…” iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/wittenberg/luther/luther-translate.txt
 
I am not familiar with Luther’s claim that his teaching on SS went no further than what he had learned from Trutfetter. Could you please provide the reference so I can check it out?

In fact, IF Luther actually did make that claim, he would have to have realized that it was false. After all, very early in his ‘reformation’ (1518) Trudfetter solidly rebuked him. The two never did reconcile. It would have been impossible for Luther to have believed that he was following Trutfetter’s teaching on SS.
The source is a letter from Luther to Trutvetter dated 9 May 1518–I think the same letter to which you refer above. (I find this quoted in Heiko Oberman’s essay “Headwaters of the Reformation,” which you can find on Google Books as part of the collection Luther and the Dawn of the Modern Era, pp. 63-64.) Oberman argues, by the way, in contrast to my suggestion above, that this was a common medieval principle and not a particularly Occamist teaching. But at any rate, my point made earlier stands (and with all due respect, you don’t seem to have noted it, since your objection to my claim ignores it): what was new (and not 100% new at that) in Luther’s teaching was his rejection of the authority of the hierarchical Church. My point was that Luther got the principle “faith is due only to canonical Scripture, though other writings should be respected” from his late scholastic education. He then employed this principle, as you note, in a much more destructive manner than Trutvetter or any of his other teachers would have wished (and in fact Trutvetter had written him to criticize the 95 Theses). But he wasn’t in formal disagreement with them about the scope of Scriptural authority. The fundamental disagreement, from Luther’s point of view, was about soteriology. Here Luther was genuinely an innovator.

I myself would not use the term “private interpretation” for Luther’s view or the view of any of the major 16th-century Reformers. I don’t find a self-conscious advocacy of private interpretation gaining ground among Protestants until the next century. But I may just be defining the term more narrowly. Certainly Luther was willing to interpret Scripture in ways that went against both Pope and Councils.

I also disagree with the suggestion that his program was fully formed by 1518. He certainly was determined by that time to rip up much of the fabric of both scholastic theology and canon law. But he hadn’t yet reached the radical rejection of church authority that he would come to after the Leipzig debate in 1519, nor probably was his soteriology fully formed (though already quite radical).

Edwin
 
here’s a look at how the Church not only delt with Luther’s errors, but how Luther responded.

  1. *]Leo X lists Luther’s errors http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Leo10/l10exdom.htm
    *]then came the excommunication, (1 yr later) Decet Romanum Pontificem http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Leo10/l10decet.htm
    *]we also see Luther’s answer to the other sola he invented. Luther merely said “Luther will have it so…” iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/wittenberg/luther/luther-translate.txt

  1. That last claim is just flat-out false, as you can see if you read the whole document. Luther went on to give a detailed exegetical argument for his translation choice.

    Stop repeating mindless propaganda points which have been refuted over and over. There are plenty of fatal flaws in sola fide without these cheap shots.
 
That last claim is just flat-out false, as you can see if you read the whole document. Luther went on to give a detailed exegetical argument for his translation choice.
I read it many times. I posted the entire document. I didn’t cherry pick.
C:
Stop repeating mindless propaganda points which have been refuted over and over. There are plenty of fatal flaws in sola fide without these cheap shots.
Refuted by who? Was Luther sooooo full of himself that he thought only he could speak and write proper German? That would truly be mindless nonsense. Oh wait, that was Luther’s defense! :rolleyes:
 
I read it many times. I posted the entire document. I didn’t cherry pick.

Refuted by who? Was Luther sooooo full of himself that he thought only he could speak and write proper German? That would truly be mindless nonsense. Oh wait, that was Luther’s defense! :rolleyes:
You said that Luther “merely said, 'Luther will have it so.” That isn’t true. He said that, but then he went on to explain why “allein durch die Glaube” was required for idiomatic German.

Since I’m not a sixteenth-century German, I find it hard to refute this argument. However, I share your suspicions that it was a rather arrogant claim on Luther’s part, given the plethora of other translations that existed in Luther’s day, which presumably didn’t contain that translation choice (though to be fair, I don’t know that for sure–I’m assuming this due to the controversy that surrounded Luther’s translation of this verse). On the other hand, it is commonly said (rightly or wrongly I don’t know) that these other translations were less idiomatic than Luther’s.

I apologize for the word “mindless,” by the way. I didn’t mean that you as a person were mindless, but it was still rude and inappropriate.

I just have trouble seeing how you can read a document in which Luther gives a detailed linguistic explanation for his choice and then deny that he gives any such explanation:shrug:

Edwin
 
You said that Luther “merely said, 'Luther will have it so.” That isn’t true. He said that, but then he went on to explain why “allein durch die Glaube” was required for idiomatic German.

Since I’m not a sixteenth-century German, I find it hard to refute this argument. However, I share your suspicions that it was a rather arrogant claim on Luther’s part, given the plethora of other translations that existed in Luther’s day, which presumably didn’t contain that translation choice (though to be fair, I don’t know that for sure–I’m assuming this due to the controversy that surrounded Luther’s translation of this verse). On the other hand, it is commonly said (rightly or wrongly I don’t know) that these other translations were less idiomatic than Luther’s.

I apologize for the word “mindless,” by the way. I didn’t mean that you as a person were mindless, but it was still rude and inappropriate.

I just have trouble seeing how you can read a document in which Luther gives a detailed linguistic explanation for his choice and then deny that he gives any such explanation:shrug:

Edwin
I don’t think steve b was denying that Luther gave a more detailed explanation, he is just focusing on the more arrogant remark that Luther starts out with. It’s not impossible that Luther thought two things: first, that he had the right translation for linguistic reasons, and second, that he had divine authority in regard to translating. The two are not mutually exclusive, and there are sentences in the document to suggest that he believed both. Steve b is just trying to show how ridiculous the second point is, and how his arrogance about the matter should lead a reasonable person to conclude that Luther’s reform movement was not from God. Does that make sense?
 
You said that Luther “merely said, 'Luther will have it so.” That isn’t true. He said that, but then he went on to explain why “allein durch die Glaube” was required for idiomatic German.

Since I’m not a sixteenth-century German, I find it hard to refute this argument. However, I share your suspicions that it was a rather arrogant claim on Luther’s part, given the plethora of other translations that existed in Luther’s day,
And there were already translations IN GERMAN before he was even a thought.

**First Printed Bible in German (1466)
**Before Martin Luther was even born, a German-language Bible was published in 1466, using Gutenberg’s invention. Known as the Mentel Bible, this Bibel was a literal translation of the Latin Vulgate. Printed in Strassburg, the Mentel Bible appeared in some 18 editions until it was replaced by Luther’s new translation in 1522.
C:
which presumably didn’t contain that translation choice (though to be fair, I don’t know that for sure–I’m assuming this due to the controversy that surrounded Luther’s translation of this verse). On the other hand, it is commonly said (rightly or wrongly I don’t know) that these other translations were less idiomatic than Luther’s.
Job threw a bit of a fit with God, and God responded to him as follows. see Job 38 2-41

Wouldn’t it have been interesting if

The Catholic Church had responded to Luther similarly with “where were you Luther when the Catholic Church was being personally established by Jesus…And where were you Luther when Jesus gave to His Church all His promises…and where were you Luther… etc etc”

Just thinking outloud 😉
C:
I apologize for the word “mindless,” by the way. I didn’t mean that you as a person were mindless, but it was still rude and inappropriate.
No problem :tiphat:
C:
I just have trouble seeing how you can read a document in which Luther gives a detailed linguistic explanation for his choice and then deny that he gives any such explanation:shrug:
read his response again. And remember, that is from the Father of Protestantism. Besides exhibiting zero charity, where is his substance? That response of his albeit ~10 years after he’s excommunicated, is the rant of a guy who has totally lost it. I presented the docs from the CC to him. Read THEM, and they are respectful and detailed. The CC really tried to work with him. Compare that effort, to the mess Luther wrote re: “translation” and where “sola fide” came from.
 
I don’t think steve b was denying that Luther gave a more detailed explanation, he is just focusing on the more arrogant remark that Luther starts out with.
He said “merely.” And that’s just not true. Luther didn’t “merely” say that. He said that and other things too.
It’s not impossible that Luther thought two things: first, that he had the right translation for linguistic reasons, and second, that he had divine authority in regard to translating. The two are not mutually exclusive, and there are sentences in the document to suggest that he believed both. Steve b is just trying to show how ridiculous the second point is, and how his arrogance about the matter should lead a reasonable person to conclude that Luther’s reform movement was not from God. Does that make sense?
No. It’s silly. You’re saying that if he thought what he said was from God, that means it wasn’t? That’s like the silly Protestants who say that because the Catholic Church claims to be the true Church, it must not be because the claim is “arrogant” (or the non-Christians who say the same thing about Christianity).

Also, Luther doesn’t say he has divine authority. He says that he knows more about translating the Bible than any of his Catholic opponents. I think Steve’s right that he’s being arrogant. On the other hand, as I pointed out, Luther’s translation did catch on where the seventeen previous versions didn’t. Whether that’s because of superior scholarship I’m not sure, but it probably was, among other things, due to Luther’s linguistic abilities in vernacular German.

Again, I’m not saying that Luther was justified in his translation. I’m highly suspicious that he was biased by his theological agenda. But it isn’t true that he “merely” said “Dr. Luther will have it so.”

Edwin
 
And there were already translations IN GERMAN before he was even a thought.
Sorry–I meant translations in German, not just translations in general, but I didn’t say so explicitly.
Job threw a bit of a fit with God, and God responded to him as follows. see Job 38 2-41

Wouldn’t it have been interesting if

The Catholic Church had responded to Luther similarly with “where were you Luther when the Catholic Church was being personally established by Jesus…And where were you Luther when Jesus gave to His Church all His promises…and where were you Luther… etc etc”
Actually they did. It wasn’t very interesting, in my opinion.
read his response again.
What is that supposed to mean? What am I reading wrong? You said “merely.”
And remember, that is from the Father of Protestantism. Besides exhibiting zero charity,
I don’t see where charity comes into it one way or the other. I’ve noticed often on this forum that “charity” is used to mean “politeness.”
where is his substance? That response of his albeit ~10 years after he’s excommunicated, is the rant of a guy who has totally lost it. I presented the docs from the CC to him. Read THEM, and they are respectful and detailed. The CC really tried to work with him. Compare that effort, to the mess Luther wrote re: “translation” and where “sola fide” came from.
I see–I was distracted by your use of “merely” from a bigger problem with that you said. You seem to think that this was Luther’s defense of sola fide. It wasn’t. In fact, what I find most suspicious about the whole thing is Luther’s implicit claim that the translation choice is just about good German and has nothing to do with Luther’s theological agenda. Obviously Luther thinks this is the best way to convey Paul’s meaning in German because he thinks he knows what Paul’s meaning is. But this isn’t his explanation of why he interprets Paul that way. If you really want to read substantive accounts of Luther’s doctrine, two standard places to start are On Christian Liberty and the Galatians commentary. Also On Two Kinds of Righteousness. Or go to the more systematic Melanchthon and read his account in the Common Places. Or go to Chemnitz’ response to the Council of Trent. (Not that I’m assuming you don’t know some or all of these texts–just saying that these are all places where sola fide is laid out and defended systematically. That’s not what he’s doing here. The whole discussion is just a straw man.)

Edwin
 
What is that supposed to mean? What am I reading wrong? You said “merely.”
That’s pretty much his argument. He admitted “sola” isn’t there, he added it because he will have it so. And it is STILL an argument 500 years later. The bible isn’t HIS book. He had zippo (name removed by moderator)ut in it’s writing or assembly. But the Catholic Church did. And he presumes to lecture ANYONE who calls him on HIS errors?
C:
I don’t see where charity comes into it one way or the other. I’ve noticed often on this forum that “charity” is used to mean “politeness.”
If you can’t see the point Re: His HUGE lack of charity, after reading his explanation, I don’t know what to say.

Here’s how the Church explains charity ccc.scborromeo.org.master.com/texis/master/search/?sufs=0&q=charity&xsubmit=Search&s=SS
C:
I see–I was distracted by your use of “merely” from a bigger problem with that you said. You seem to think that this was Luther’s defense of sola fide. It wasn’t. In fact, what I find most suspicious about the whole thing is Luther’s implicit claim that the translation choice is just about good German and has nothing to do with Luther’s theological agenda. Obviously Luther thinks this is the best way to convey Paul’s meaning in German because he thinks he knows what Paul’s meaning is. But this isn’t his explanation of why he interprets Paul that way. If you really want to read substantive accounts of Luther’s doctrine, two standard places to start are On Christian Liberty and the Galatians commentary. Also On Two Kinds of Righteousness. Or go to the more systematic Melanchthon and read his account in the Common Places. Or go to Chemnitz’ response to the Council of Trent. (Not that I’m assuming you don’t know some or all of these texts–just saying that these are all places where sola fide is laid out and defended systematically. That’s not what he’s doing here. The whole discussion is just a straw man.)

Edwin
And that’s how you think ends the discussion? Labeling it a strawman? I don’t think so. Luther exposed himself in that letter.
 
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