When was the Church "Catholic?"

[Matthew_P_Muehl]

No problem I don’t feel very at ease mentioning these things either, and I am sorry if I sounded exceedingly harsh. You know, sometimes love can make us react too abruptly I really, really wish we were one big family, as silly as that may sound

It doesn’t sound silly to me R C. I pray that all Christians would Catholic!
All we can do is Pray to the Holy Spirit for this to one day happen…

Matthew

 

[JRKH]

No problem I don’t feel very at ease mentioning these things either, and I am sorry if I sounded exceedingly harsh. You know, sometimes love can make us react too abruptly I really, really wish we were one big family, as silly as that may sound

It doesn’t sound silly to me R C. I pray that all Christians would Catholic!
All we can do is Pray to the Holy Spirit for this to one day happen…

Matthew

 

[ConstantineTG]

This makes sense of everything. I also agree with most of the other comments. I’m just trying to decide if either of the 2 have a sole claim to being the “True” or original christian church. I think the answer is that both ARE the original Church.

Edit- It just occurred to me that my comment will probably rile EVERYBODY in this thread. Sorry, but it’s what I think is the case…

Of course both are. It is not like there was one Church and then a small group broke off and established new Churches after the schism. The Church of Rome and the Church of Constantinople were alredy in existence for centuries by the time of the schism. They split. The Patriarch of Constantinople did not found a new Church, and the Pope of Rome did not found a new Church. Both of them continued with the Church they already have before the schism. The only difference is that they are no longer in communion with one another. So it is false to look at the Great Schism as a point when one or the other originated. They were both in existence prior to the schism.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Jesus and the apostles were Jews as were all the earliest believers…

Earliest Use of the Name “Catholic Church”

The early Church - the Church founded by Christ as promised in Matthew 16:18 - was that which was originally known as “the Way” (cf. Acts 24:14). Later, those individuals who followed Christ began to be called “Christians” beginning at Antioch (cf. Acts 11:26). As early as 107 A.D., those same individuals referred to themselves collectively as the “Catholic Church”. In a letter to the Church of Smyrna, Ignatius of Antioch wrote, “You must all follow the bishop as Jesus Christ follows the Father, and the presbytery (priest) as you would the Apostles. Let no one do anything of concern to the Church without the bishop. Wherever the bishop appears, let the people be there; just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.” (Letter to the Smyrnaeans, A.D. 107, [8,1])

Notice that Ignatius does not introduce the term “Catholic Church”; instead he uses it in a manner suggesting that the name was already in use and familiar to his audience. This further suggests that the name, Catholic Church, had to have been coined much earlier in order to have achieved wide circulation by the time of this writing. In other words, the Christian assembly was calling itself the Catholic Church during the lifetime of the last Apostle, John, who died near the end of the first century. John, the beloved disciple, may have thought of himself as a member of the Catholic Church!

The Catholic Church began with Peter and the Apostles and continued without interruption or cessation through their disciples (Ignatius, Irenaeus, Polycarp, Clement, Justin Martyr, etc.) down to the present day. As a side note, it appears that the believers in Antioch may have coined both terms still in use today: “Christian” and “Catholic Church” – terms they used to describe the one body of believers in Christ.

Again, St. Ignatius doesn’t use “catholic church” in the same context we do today. Though of course he is referring to the one, true Church. But to use his Epistle to say that the Catholic Church existed back then because it was referred to by name is a false understanding of this Epistle.

 

[Wandile]

Again, St. Ignatius doesn’t use “catholic church” in the same context we do today. Though of course he is referring to the one, true Church. But to use his Epistle to say that the Catholic Church existed back then because it was referred to by name is a false understanding of this Epistle.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Again, St. Ignatius doesn’t use “catholic church” in the same context we do today. Though of course he is referring to the one, true Church. But to use his Epistle to say that the Catholic Church existed back then because it was referred to by name is a false understanding of this Epistle.

Hardly, because Ignatius was not alone in his use of the term; the following authors (writing at very early periods) reveal that “Catholic Church” meant the same for them as it does for us today:

The Martyrdom of Polycarp

“The church of God that sojourns at Smyrna, to the church of God sojourning in Philomelium - and to all of the congregations of the holy and Catholic Church in every place.” (The Martyrdom of St. Polycarp)

“When at last he had finished his prayer, in which he remembered all who had met with him ant any time, both small and great, both those with and those without renown, and the whole Catholic Church throughout the world.” (The Martyrdom of Polycarp, 8:1, [A.D. 156]).

“And certainly the most admirable Polycarp was one of these [elect], in whose times among us he showed himself an apostolic and prophetic teacher and bishop of the Catholic Church in Smyrna.”(The Martyrdom of Polycarp, 16:2, [A.D. 156]).

“Our Lord Jesus Christ is the Savior of our souls, the Governor of our bodies, and the Shepherd of the Catholic Church throughout the world.” (The Martyrdom of Polycarp, [A.D. 156]).

Irenaeus

The Catholic Church possesses one and the same faith throughout the whole world, as we have already said (Against Heresies 1:10 [A.D. 189]).

Cyril of Jerusalem

“And if you ever are visiting in cities, do not inquire simply where the house of the Lord is - for the others, sects of impious, attempt to call their dens ‘houses of the Lord’ - nor ask merely where the Church is, but where is the Catholic Church, for this is the name peculiar to this holy Church, the Mother of us all, which is the Spouse of our Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God.” (Cathechetical Lectures 18:26, [350 A.D.])

Augustine

“[T]he very name of Catholic . . . belongs to this Church alone . . . so much so that, although all heretics want to be called ‘catholic,’ when a stranger inquires where the Catholic Church meets, none of the heretics would dare to point out his own basilica or house” (Against the Letter of Mani Called `The Foundation’ 4:5 [397 A.D.]).

“If you should find someone who does not yet believe in the gospel what would you [Mani] answer him when he says, “I do not believe”? Indeed, I would not believe the gospel myself if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.” (Against the Letter of Mani Called `The Foundation’ 4:5 [397 A.D.]).

+++

At some point, the preponderance of evidence simply overwhelms those who want desperately to believe the fanciful notion that the Catholic Church was NOT founded by Jesus on Peter, the rock (cf. Mt. 16:18).

 

[ConstantineTG]

Hardly, because Ignatius was not alone in his use of the term; the following authors (writing at very early periods) reveal that “Catholic Church” meant the same for them as it does for us today:

The Martyrdom of Polycarp

“The church of God that sojourns at Smyrna, to the church of God sojourning in Philomelium - and to all of the congregations of the holy and Catholic Church in every place.” (The Martyrdom of St. Polycarp)

“When at last he had finished his prayer, in which he remembered all who had met with him ant any time, both small and great, both those with and those without renown, and the whole Catholic Church throughout the world.” (The Martyrdom of Polycarp, 8:1, [A.D. 156]).

“And certainly the most admirable Polycarp was one of these [elect], in whose times among us he showed himself an apostolic and prophetic teacher and bishop of the Catholic Church in Smyrna.”(The Martyrdom of Polycarp, 16:2, [A.D. 156]).

“Our Lord Jesus Christ is the Savior of our souls, the Governor of our bodies, and the Shepherd of the Catholic Church throughout the world.” (The Martyrdom of Polycarp, [A.D. 156]).

Irenaeus

The Catholic Church possesses one and the same faith throughout the whole world, as we have already said (Against Heresies 1:10 [A.D. 189]).

Cyril of Jerusalem

“And if you ever are visiting in cities, do not inquire simply where the house of the Lord is - for the others, sects of impious, attempt to call their dens ‘houses of the Lord’ - nor ask merely where the Church is, but where is the Catholic Church, for this is the name peculiar to this holy Church, the Mother of us all, which is the Spouse of our Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God.” (Cathechetical Lectures 18:26, [350 A.D.])

Augustine

“[T]he very name of Catholic . . . belongs to this Church alone . . . so much so that, although all heretics want to be called ‘catholic,’ when a stranger inquires where the Catholic Church meets, none of the heretics would dare to point out his own basilica or house” (Against the Letter of Mani Called `The Foundation’ 4:5 [397 A.D.]).

“If you should find someone who does not yet believe in the gospel what would you [Mani] answer him when he says, “I do not believe”? Indeed, I would not believe the gospel myself if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.” (Against the Letter of Mani Called `The Foundation’ 4:5 [397 A.D.]).

+++

At some point, the preponderance of evidence simply overwhelms those who want desperately to believe the fanciful notion that the Catholic Church was NOT founded by Jesus on Peter, the rock (cf. Mt. 16:18).

Just to clarify, the Catholic Church of course is the one true Church. But in the early Church they do not use that term to be a noun, it is not the name of the Church. The same way when you read the documents from the Councils especially the Ecumenical Councils and you will find the word “orthodox” there, they are not talking about the “faith of the Orthodox Church” but rather they are talking about the “one true faith of the one true Church”.

Our connection to the early Church is not by name, but rather by the possession of the one true faith that has been consistently passed from one generation to the next from the time of the Apostles to today. We shouldn’t proof-text the writings of the Fathers and say, “look, St. so-and-so said the word ‘Catholic Church’, this proves we exist back then.” To be quite frank, it does not. What proves the existence of the early Church is the faith they possessed and if we can prove the faith we have today is consistent with the faith they have back then, then we are the same Church regardless of what names we assign ourselves at any given point in time.

 

[joe370]

Again, St. Ignatius doesn’t use “catholic church” in the same context we do today. Though of course he is referring to the one, true Church. But to use his Epistle to say that the Catholic Church existed back then because it was referred to by name is a false understanding of this Epistle.

Hey ConstantineTG. So, Ignatius is referring to the one true church, but not the Catholic Church. OK.

The one true church that he was referring to back then, is now identified as what today? Let’s, for the sake of argument, keep the one Catholic church to which I belong, out of it for the time being, since you do not believe that Ignatius was referring to it.

“Wherever the bishop is, let the people be there; just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.”

 

[RKO]

Just to clarify, the Catholic Church of course is the one true Church. But in the early Church they do not use that term to be a noun, it is not the name of the Church. The same way when you read the documents from the Councils especially the Ecumenical Councils and you will find the word “orthodox” there, they are not talking about the “faith of the Orthodox Church” but rather they are talking about the “one true faith of the one true Church”.

Our connection to the early Church is not by name, but rather by the possession of the one true faith that has been consistently passed from one generation to the next from the time of the Apostles to today. We shouldn’t proof-text the writings of the Fathers and say, “look, St. so-and-so said the word ‘Catholic Church’, this proves we exist back then.” To be quite frank, it does not. What proves the existence of the early Church is the faith they possessed and if we can prove the faith we have today is consistent with the faith they have back then, then we are the same Church regardless of what names we assign ourselves at any given point in time.

Constantine, did any of the early writers ever refer to the church as the “orthodox church?” Not a loaded question, I really don’t know!

 

[Cavaradossi]

Constantine, did any of the early writers ever refer to the church as the “orthodox church?” Not a loaded question, I really don’t know!

The ecumenical councils did. Orthodox and catholic were both adjectives used to describe the Church herself, as well as the faith of the Church

 

[Randy_Carson]

Just to clarify, the Catholic Church of course is the one true Church. But in the early Church they do not use that term to be a noun, it is not the name of the Church. The same way when you read the documents from the Councils especially the Ecumenical Councils and you will find the word “orthodox” there, they are not talking about the “faith of the Orthodox Church” but rather they are talking about the “one true faith of the one true Church”.

Our connection to the early Church is not by name, but rather by the possession of the one true faith that has been consistently passed from one generation to the next from the time of the Apostles to today. We shouldn’t proof-text the writings of the Fathers and say, “look, St. so-and-so said the word ‘Catholic Church’, this proves we exist back then.” To be quite frank, it does not. What proves the existence of the early Church is the faith they possessed and if we can prove the faith we have today is consistent with the faith they have back then, then we are the same Church regardless of what names we assign ourselves at any given point in time.

I think the evidence presented suggests that the term was being used as (or very close to) a proper noun (as opposed to an adjective) at a very, very early date.

Earlier than most non-Catholics are comfortable with for sure!

 

[joe370]

Was Jesus Catholic? Was Peter? Or, was it the Christian Church in the beginning and became "the “Catholic” Church later? Did Constantine found the Catholic Church? Was the Orthodox Church originally part of the Catholic church, or vice versa, or were they both considered to be the Christian Church for a time?

Let’s assume for the sake of argument that the catholic church and the eastern orthodox churches were not founded by Jesus, and that (as everyone knows) the protestant churches are all churches established by mere men and women, as opposed to Jesus the Christ. Where does that leave us in terms of the church founded by Jesus to which the apostles belonged?

 

[perro_sarnoso]

Was Jesus Catholic? Was Peter? Or, was it the Christian Church in the beginning and became "the “Catholic” Church later? Did Constantine found the Catholic Church? Was the Orthodox Church originally part of the Catholic church, or vice versa, or were they both considered to be the Christian Church for a time?

St. Cyril of Jerusalem; St. Ignatius of Antioch and St. Peter-were contemporaries. St. Cyril was the first one to coin the term “christians” for the followers of Christ. On his deathbed, St. Peter gave St. Cyril the last rites and then consecrated St. Ignatius as the next bishop of Antioch.

St. Ignatius was the first person to coin the term “katolicos” referring the the christians of that time. This would’ve been on or about 66 to 67 Anno Domine.

The church that Jesus Christ founded after His ascension into heaven had always and will always be Catholic for the simple reason that it is what the Eternal Father has willed to be believed univerally.

 

[Traverse]

I’d be interested in your sources for that, Perro. I’ve never heard those claims before.

Thanks.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Constantine, did any of the early writers ever refer to the church as the “orthodox church?” Not a loaded question, I really don’t know!

Orthodox would normally be used to describe the faith, not the Church. That is why in the Divine Liturgy we pray for the “orthodox Christians”. This doesn’t mean “Christians belonging to the Orthdox Church,” but rather, “Christians believe in the right (orthodox) faith.” That is why many Eastern Catholic Churches today have reverted their translations back to “orthodox Christians” because that is what is meant by those lines in the Liturgy. It isn’t about Catholic vs. Orthodox, it is about Christians who bear the true faith regardless of which communion they belong to.

 

[ConstantineTG]

I think the evidence presented suggests that the term was being used as (or very close to) a proper noun (as opposed to an adjective) at a very, very early date.

Earlier than most non-Catholics are comfortable with for sure!

The term is used not as a name. Like I said, they never had any reason to coin an official term for the Church back then. There was only one true Christian Church, there were no Lutherans or Anglicans or Catholic vs. Orthodox. The heretics and schismatics were names as such, Arians, Donatists, Gnostics, etc. But the Church is the Church. Catholic is a mark of the Church as you will see in our creed, it is not a name. I am trying to make the distinction here of “Catholic” as a mark, ie. an adjective, and the name. And as such it is not correct to argue that the Church today is the same Church in the past just because of a mention of the word “Catholic”. What makes the Church connected to the past is not the name but the mark, the adjective. For one thing, most of today’s religions aren’t even the same religion of the past. Today’s Jews are not the same Jews of Jesus’ time. A lot has changed in their faith since the destruction of the temple. So arguing authenticity and connection by using a name doesn’t really prove anything. I can make up a new sect today and call it “The Way” but that doesn’t mean it is the same “The Way” as mentioned in Acts.

I’m not saying that the Catholic Church is not the Church in the First Millennium. I’m just saying that if you want to prove that, prooftexting names isn’t a convincing argument.

 

[Bookcat]

First members of the Church were called “the disciples”…

Later called followers of “the way” …and it seems “Nazarenes”

then at Antioch we started being called Christians.

Later in the first century the Church started to be called “Catholic” (see St. Ignatius --again at Antioch --use around the year 100)

So in time Christians began to be also called Catholics.

And as various heresies arose in the first centuries…which claimed to be Christian …the word was used to differentiate Christians from the others was Catholic…

Of course we still called ourselves Christians…but also we used the term Catholic.

Now a days we have many sorts of Christians --who are indeed Christians and our brothers…though we are unhappily not yet in full communion.

Catholics are Christians who in full communion with the successor of Peter.

As one early Christian noted (375AD)

“If you want to know who I am,” he said, “Christian is my name, Catholic is my surname.” --St. Pacian

 

[ConstantineTG]

And as various heresies arose in the first centuries…which claimed to be Christian …the word was used to differentiate Christians from the others was Catholic…

This was never the case in the Early Church. Catholic first came about to emphasize the universal nature of the faith, that it wasn’t just a faith for the Jews or a faith for any particular group. Back then, faiths were very nationalistic. If your king or ruler professed a faith, chances are that is your faith and the faith of everyone else under the ruler. Christians were persecuted in Rome not because they hated Christians per se. Rome allowed for freedom or religion long before Constantine did. The difference was that regardless of what belief you professed, you should also recognize the Emperor as leader and god. That is what the Christians did not obey and were persecuted for. Rome’s nationalistic religion was the Emperor, even though people were generally free to have their own religious practices, that is why you have the Greek gods and other pagan faiths freely practiced in the Roman Empire.

As I mentioned, “Catholic” as a name was never used in the early Church. It described the Church as a mark, as an adjective, it was not a name. If there was a term to differentiate the true Church from the heretics, it was “orthodox”, not “catholic”.

 

[Bookcat]

This was never the case in the Early Church. .

Such would be mistaken here.

 

[Bookcat]

“If you want to know who I am,” he said, “Christian is my name, Catholic is my surname.” --St. Pacian 375 AD