When/where is the guilt for the sin?

[wayward]

In Christian Doctrine Class I remember being told that if you decide to steal some jewelery from a store and are in the process of crossing the road towards that store and you get hit by a truck, you would still be guilty of theft even though you didn’t get to commit the act.

So, what if you make it across the road just fine, get to the window of the store, and are about to steal the jewelery when you suddenly change your mind?

Or, what if you are thinking about stealing jewelery, and you aren’t sure if you want to or not, but you buy a gun and some various tools you would need to do so, and create a plan, and set a date for the theft, all the while telling yourself that you won’t actually go through with it, even though you are preparing everything “just in case you decide you want to”. Are you still guilty?

If you answer, I would really prefer Church teaching to personal opinion, so perhaps citing some sources where I can read more and find more information and teaching would be cool.

I am asking because something is bothering me, and I think I may need to go to confession. I have meticulously planned out and prepared to commit a mortal sin that would probably result in my being forever cut off from God’s grace and heaven. I’ve been telling myself that I won’t do it, but I’ve prepared the means and set a date and been telling myself that maybe I will, maybe I won’t, and maybe God would forgive me even if I did.

I think I need to confess it, but I don’t want to give this to a priest because it will probably challenge him in as far as the seal of the confessional goes, because he will want to make sure I can’t go through with it and he won’t be able to do that without breaking the seal. I don’t want to risk leading a priest astray.

So I am seeking to understand - if I had previously made the decision to go through with an act that is gravely immoral, but I change my mind - am I still guilty of the act by virtue of all the steps I’ve taken towards making it an easier sin to commit? Or maybe I don’t need to worry about confessing it, since I didn’t go through with it but changed my mind?

wayward

 

[Bendzi]

If you were going to go through with an immoral act and changed your mind because you are aware of what that would do to your relationship to God than what you received is Grace.

On premeditated acts
God knows you even before you were made in the womb so he knows if you will go through with an act or not. He will know if you really were going to go through with it if you lived or if you were going to quit with the diamonds already in your hand and walk away taking nothing. By preparing for it, you might have committed a sin by allowing yourself to fall into temptation… sort of along the same lines as why pornography is a sin - it feeds off of lustrous and adulterous desires

 

[baltobetsy]

Never, ever worry about the seal of confession. The priest will not break it no matter what. In addition, he, as a priest, by virtue of his ordination, receives graces to deal with whatever matters are presented to him in the confessional. This is called “grace of state.” (Actually, everybody has grace of state to a degree; it’s the grace needed to perform the duties of one’s state in life.) Pray for your confessor, as we all should, and that’s all the precaution you need to take in this regard.

You are on a very dangerous path when you try to handle this kind of thing on your own with research and discussion with others. Go to confession. Please. Your eternal life depends upon it.

 

[wayward]

Well, I spoke with my priest anyway.

I’m still confused though, as to whether or not one is guilty of a sin simply by reason of having made a mental choice to commit the act - even if they then do not go through with that decision. I guess it might vary in different circumstances?

I know the bottom line is if I am ever in doubt, I should probably just confess it and let the priest tell me.

And I do worry about bringing something to confession that may tempt a priest to break the seal of confession. Generally if I have to confess something that may lead any sane person to want to intervene (like self-harm), I like to also bring some kind of evidence or proof that I am taking steps to prevent it from happening again or to be able to tell the priest that I am in counseling also, so he need not worry.

It just seems to me like that would be the considerate approach… they struggle with temptations and things too. I don’t want to make it any harder on them if I can avoid it.

wayward

 

[wworld]

Wait? Then when do you commit the sin of whatever and when is it just temptation?

 

[wworld]

When is it just temptation and when is it an actual sin?

 

[wayward]

Well it’s only a temptation if you don’t embrace it with your will.

But if you embrace an evil option of your own will and actually make a strong decision to do something wrong, then from what I understand, you are still as guilty as if you had actually committed the sin.

Since the main effects of sin are in the human heart.

My question is, what if you make a firm decision to commit a sin - and even take steps preparing to commit that sin - and then change your mind for whatever reason. Does the guilt of the sin (a sin in thought?) remain?

wayward

 

[Stavros]

I can only think of one sin that it would be truly impossible to repent from, and that’s suicide, because you don’t have an opportunity to to back. If you are thinking about suicide, you need more help than a priest can get you. You need to talk to a suicide hotline as soon as possible, and get the relief you need so that you no longer consider that to be a viable option. Suicide is not a solution to a problem, it’s a way to stop incredible pain. When a person gets to the point where they are ready to kill themselves, it’s not because they are mad at someone, or angry, or even depressed - it’s because the pain is so unbearable that it can no longer be lived with. But while it may not be “good” in your life for a long time, there are people and medications that can make it be not as bad enough so that you have the strength and fortitude to be able to fight your way back to health.

My brother committed suicide, and the effect on his family was so strong that you could not even imagine the damage. If you are suicidal, and the fear of damnation isn’t enough to snap you out of it, think of the pained look on your mother and father’s face as they look into your casket. I’ll never forget that look on my mother’s face as she bent down and kissed my brother on the forehead at his funeral. Please don’t ever do that to someone. Just reach out, and someone will be able to help.

If it’s something other than suicide, a priest can definitely help to banish those demons. I have found that when I am tormented by wanting to commit a sin, if I confess it. “Father, while I have not succumbed to XXX sin, I feel tormented by it and hope by confessing the temptation that its hold on me will be lessened.” That kind of thing. He may also have ideas of where you can start to get mental health assistance, if you need it, or prayers that can help to curb these desires you have for the sin.

 

[thistle]

I can only think of one sin that it would be truly impossible to repent from, and that’s suicide, because you don’t have an opportunity to to back. If you are thinking about suicide, you need more help than a priest can get you. You need to talk to a suicide hotline as soon as possible, and get the relief you need so that you no longer consider that to be a viable option. Suicide is not a solution to a problem, it’s a way to stop incredible pain. When a person gets to the point where they are ready to kill themselves, it’s not because they are mad at someone, or angry, or even depressed - it’s because the pain is so unbearable that it can no longer be lived with. But while it may not be “good” in your life for a long time, there are people and medications that can make it be not as bad enough so that you have the strength and fortitude to be able to fight your way back to health.

My brother committed suicide, and the effect on his family was so strong that you could not even imagine the damage. If you are suicidal, and the fear of damnation isn’t enough to snap you out of it, think of the pained look on your mother and father’s face as they look into your casket. I’ll never forget that look on my mother’s face as she bent down and kissed my brother on the forehead at his funeral. Please don’t ever do that to someone. Just reach out, and someone will be able to help.

If it’s something other than suicide, a priest can definitely help to banish those demons. I have found that when I am tormented by wanting to commit a sin, if I confess it. “Father, while I have not succumbed to XXX sin, I feel tormented by it and hope by confessing the temptation that its hold on me will be lessened.” That kind of thing. He may also have ideas of where you can start to get mental health assistance, if you need it, or prayers that can help to curb these desires you have for the sin.

It depends on the method of suicide. Someone taking a bottle of pills, for example, will not die instantly and the person may be incapacited but may still be able to repent and call on God’s mercy.
I do not believe all suicides are automatically going to Hell.

 

[Stavros]

It depends on the method of suicide. Someone taking a bottle of pills, for example, will not die instantly and the person may be incapacited but may still be able to repent and call on God’s mercy.
I do not believe all suicides are automatically going to Hell.

I don’t believe most people who commit suicide are going to hell because I think God has a contingency plan for people who have mental health issues. I believe God only holds people accountable things if they are in a proper state of mind, and people who commit suicide obviously are not in their right state of mind. Now, you may say “But what about drug addicts who kill themselves? They’re not mentally askew.” Well, my brother was a drug addict, but I know it was because he was self-medicating, and it took a terribly wrong turn. When my brother was a baby, only 2 or 3, he would wake up screaming with “night terrors”. He was a cutter in high school, and was diagnosed bipolar in his 20’s. But a week before he died, he went to church (LDS) and thanked God and thanked our parents in front of everyone in Fast & Testimony meeting.

I refuse to believe God will not have mercy on my brother, who was tortured by demons even into his infancy. Not that he was a saint, he wasn’t by any means, but I don’t believe that what he did was anything more than a way to stop that pain. It was simply too much for him to bear.

 

[wayward]

Stavros - my priest also believes I need more help than he can give me.

But I do believe that making the choice, planning the details and preparing to commit suicide was a sin in thought in so far as I was committed to that decision, and a sin in action in so far as I took steps to make that decision possible.

I also believe that for me, suicide would be a mortal sin because I am aware that it is grave matter, and no matter how much my life sucks right now, I still have full knowledge of that.

But not everyone has full knowledge, and not everyone comes to the decision freely. I am very sorry to hear about your brother, and to have reminded you of your loss.

I will pray for your brother, that if he is in purgatory he may soon be in heaven.

in Christ
wayward

 

[Stavros]

Stavros - my priest also believes I need more help than he can give me.

But I do believe that making the choice, planning the details and preparing to commit suicide was a sin in thought in so far as I was committed to that decision, and a sin in action in so far as I took steps to make that decision possible.

I also believe that for me, suicide would be a mortal sin because I am aware that it is grave matter, and no matter how much my life sucks right now, I still have full knowledge of that.

Did you take your priest’s advice? Were you able to find someone else to talk to that could help? That’s the #1 most crucial thing for you right now. If you do nothing else than reach out for help, that’s a fantastic start. You need to get with someone who understands that a person who has picked a time, and a method, and has those things for that method, is simply more than someone who “wants attention”, that’s someone who needs some support.

Please call 1-800-273-8255, or if it’s really bad (you have the impliments in your hand) call 911. A great resource to find help as well is suicide.org/. Even if you can’t think of a friend to call, or a family member, these places understand that sometimes pain gets unbearable, and sometimes life situations seem hopeless. What you are feeling is very real, but luckily what you are feeling is also something that can be helped enough to get you out of these dire straits.

You are in my prayers.

 

[wild_thing]

Stavros - my priest also believes I need more help than he can give me.

But I do believe that making the choice, planning the details and preparing to commit suicide was a sin in thought in so far as I was committed to that decision, and a sin in action in so far as I took steps to make that decision possible.

I also believe that for me, suicide would be a mortal sin because I am aware that it is grave matter, and no matter how much my life sucks right now, I still have full knowledge of that.

But not everyone has full knowledge, and not everyone comes to the decision freely. I am very sorry to hear about your brother, and to have reminded you of your loss.

I will pray for your brother, that if he is in purgatory he may soon be in heaven.

in Christ
wayward

Wayward, I am in the same boat as you. I am constantly wondering if God could forgive me if my emotions get the better of me and I successfully commit suicide. In times like now, when I am not actively suicidal, I do not see how it can be anything other than a mortal sin worthy of damnation. I feel as if because I have studied the catechism, made use of the Sacraments, pray to God and to the saints and angels, can reason about the wrongness of the decision, etc. etc- that I ‘know’ better and therefore my culpability is higher- do you know what I mean? I am constantly going to confession to admit my suicidal thoughts and plans and I think frankly, the priests are starting to think I am not really serious because I am still alive to confess it and have never actually physically attempted. I know how deadly serious I am in my mind regarding it and fear of damnation does help sober me up at times- but I am scared that one day my emotions will be too high or I will be hurting too much and that thought won’t stop me. Even being diagnosed as mentally ill wouldn’t make me feel as if my culpability was lessened because I do not see my thoughts as being compromised- it would feel as if I were using mental illness as an excuse for my mortal sin and God would condemn me for it. I do not want to add the mortal sin of presumption onto everything else.
Anyway, wayward, I just wanted to let you know that someone is suffering right along with you, and I also would appreciate anyone else’s advice or thoughts about it. God bless.

 

[wayward]

Wild thing - you have just described exactly how I feel. I start to feel bad for bugging people with it. I don’t want people to worry about me, and I am scared that if I talk to my counselor about it, then I will find myself hospitalized or something dramatic and crazy - which might then make me lose my EI, and the room which I am renting, and then everyone who right now is clueless and thinks of me as so strong and capable would know how weak and selfish I really am.

I am in counseling, though, and if you are not I would suggest finding someone to go to. I haven’t told my counselor how close I’ve come or what steps I’ve taken, just that I have a plan and that I think about it a lot. It helps to know that someone understands, at least a little, you know?

I am praying for you, Wild Thing, and Stavros. And I thank you both for the prayers.

wayward

 

[wild_thing]

Thank you also for the prayers. If I am ever enlightened by something I read on the subject, or if I ever get any really good advice, I’ll be sure to pass it on to you as well. For now, I guess it is just take it day by day. At least you and I are not alone!