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Alindawyl
Guest
Ah, true. There really isn’t a limitation on how the bishop should make his decision on that.
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OraLabora
Guest
With emphasis on “in the United States”. It’s not the same for those of us in different countries.
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evener
Guest
Many thanks for all the information. I should have known the bishops had that authority, but wasn’t sure.Still, it would be nice to travel to other dioceses and not be too surprized, and we have a new missal coming !, so I won’t give up hope.
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Phemie
Guest
If you’re in the US don’t expect changes with the new Missal. The GIRM you are using is from the new Missal so any changes, such has the bishops’ option to have kneeling or not after the Agnus Dei, have already happened.
Still, it would be nice to travel to other dioceses and not be too surprized, and we have a new missal coming !, so I won’t give up hope.
Canadians will see changes in rubrics since the new GIRM will not go into effect for us until the new Missal is published.
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awatkins69
Guest
The problem is that relavitism has even infested the Church. Now aesthetic judgments are no longer objective, but what’s “okay for you” is not necessarily “okay for me”, as if we had different human natures. Thus, anything goes. Chinese people recognize the beauty of a Nocturne from Chopin. But when it comes to the most sacred liturgy then it’s all relative. And even if we concede that differences in culture make a difference, there is absolutely no excuse if the two churches are 60 miles away from each other. Culture does not change that much. Give me a break.
Once this cruel relativism is gone, everything will be okay. Benedict XVI has been one of the largest critics of this slavish modernism. We will once again worship with love and reverence for the King of Kings and Lord of Lords in the Holy Eucharist. Our Lady of Good Success, pray for us!
Once this cruel relativism is gone, everything will be okay. Benedict XVI has been one of the largest critics of this slavish modernism. We will once again worship with love and reverence for the King of Kings and Lord of Lords in the Holy Eucharist. Our Lady of Good Success, pray for us!
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ProVobis
Guest
Unfortunately cultures vary now even within the same parish. Even before the introduction of the vernacular in the liturgy, you had Spanish, Polish, German, Irish, etc distinct communities, especially in the major cities. Of course, the vernacular and the New Mass have only solidified those cultures and in fact now have created sub-cultures, some of whom prefer a certain practice over another because of so many options in the liturgy. I doubt if there will ever be uniformity in the Mass liturgy.
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Lycorth
Guest
Uniformity will come when modernism runs its course, as all trends within the Church inevitably do. Nothing lasts forever, except God’s Church, and that which fails to give God and His Church the proper glory will eventually be done away with, or will fade away and die the whimpering death it deserves. This includes modernism and relativism within the Church; one day, piety and tradition will refresh the faithful and in droves people will flock to traditional churches until the old modernist buildings either raise funds to convert their structures into proper churches or shut their doors forever.
There’s no excuse for even a poor parish starting up to have ugly and inherently irreverent buildings. When new parishes began in America, the churches were built to look like churches, even if they weren’t done up as lavishly as the ones back home in Europe. Catholic and protestant churches alike all followed that sort of thinking; in town here there is an old Lutheran church that… wait for it… looks like a church. There is a Catholic church in town that looks like a bank, like there should be an ATM and a drive-thru off to the side. The former was built in the late 19th century, the latter in the 1970s, in an unarguably better-off time financially. The choice could have been made to build a simple but traditional church, but it wasn’t - modernist sensibilities were catered to and as a result, there is no Catholic culture in our town. That eyesore might as well not exist.
The Mass for All Time is the Mass for Our Time - the traditional faith is the faith for today. So long as we vote with our feet whenever we can and make our voices heard whenever possible, we’ll help swing the pendulum back to where it belongs.
There’s no excuse for even a poor parish starting up to have ugly and inherently irreverent buildings. When new parishes began in America, the churches were built to look like churches, even if they weren’t done up as lavishly as the ones back home in Europe. Catholic and protestant churches alike all followed that sort of thinking; in town here there is an old Lutheran church that… wait for it… looks like a church. There is a Catholic church in town that looks like a bank, like there should be an ATM and a drive-thru off to the side. The former was built in the late 19th century, the latter in the 1970s, in an unarguably better-off time financially. The choice could have been made to build a simple but traditional church, but it wasn’t - modernist sensibilities were catered to and as a result, there is no Catholic culture in our town. That eyesore might as well not exist.
The Mass for All Time is the Mass for Our Time - the traditional faith is the faith for today. So long as we vote with our feet whenever we can and make our voices heard whenever possible, we’ll help swing the pendulum back to where it belongs.
The_Reginator
Active member
This blog entry by Scott P. Richert on About.com Guide to Catholicism may be of some help here as it refers to the Pope’s attitude toward the guidance we should be receiving. See The Traditional Latin Mass Is Back
Here’s a portion that applies to this discussion:
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Lycorth
Guest
Great post! God bless the pope for taking this stand. It will snowball into a true traditional revolution.
The NO Mass that I grew up with was celebrated with unquestionable matter and form and intent in a very conservative church with either elderly American nuns and elderly priests from Europe staffing the church who were all raised and trained in the traditional Church before the dark ages of the 1970s. That Mass and those religious made an awesome impression on me of the transcendent sacredness and wordless beauty of the traditional Faith and of the Lord Himself. The NO Mass, when said with true reverence and absolute adherence to tradition will certainly help to turn out holy Catholics who want to see just how much more holy and beautiful the traditional Mass is.
I feel sorry for those raised in ugly modernist churches with watered-down liturgies and nonexistent reverence. Those poor souls are robbed of so much…
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pnewton
Guest
Homogenious uniformity is neither needed or desirable. It is also something that the Church has never had or desired. Different parishes work best with different means. The standards are set and are very reasonable. If adherence to the standards are frustrating, that is understandable. If choice of hymns is frustrating, that is not. Polyphonic chant arose in the Middle Ages. It was banned, then allowed. Even then, there was diversity of music. Our Holy Father wrote about the ongoing need for new artists to add to the wealth of Church music, within limits, of course.
Also, practicle considerations weigh in. Not all parishes have the same demographic or culture. Not all have the same resource, both talent and money.
Also, practicle considerations weigh in. Not all parishes have the same demographic or culture. Not all have the same resource, both talent and money.
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tlnd
Guest
Do you think a Mass at the Vatican is the same as one in Peoria? When the Roman Church made the claim that the Mass was a sacrifice, conflict was inevitable in the Roman Church. The Hebrews had only one place where a sacrifice could be performed and there was no possibility for one location having a better sacrifice than another. I have talked to members of our parish that left the parish to attend Mass at the new Cathedral in Los Angeles because that Mass was more elaborate and powerful.
The Mass can be a beneficial scenario for us to celebrate our Lord, our Father, and the Paraclete. How one Church community expresses their love of God may be very different from another Church community. Many say they want ‘old school’. Not too long ago ecclesiastical leadership in the Roman Church claimed that the Mass had to be done to appease an angry Father by reminding Him how his Son had been crucified for our sins. Do you want to go to Mass for that reason? What is the community dynamic in such a scenario? Would you ever be able to call such a God, Abba, and feel you are being honest?
The Mass can be a beneficial scenario for us to celebrate our Lord, our Father, and the Paraclete. How one Church community expresses their love of God may be very different from another Church community. Many say they want ‘old school’. Not too long ago ecclesiastical leadership in the Roman Church claimed that the Mass had to be done to appease an angry Father by reminding Him how his Son had been crucified for our sins. Do you want to go to Mass for that reason? What is the community dynamic in such a scenario? Would you ever be able to call such a God, Abba, and feel you are being honest?
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evener
Guest
The reason my wife & I go to Mass is to worship, adore. and thank God for loving us & dying for us. St.Padre Pio said that only the priest needs a missal, the laity should stay with the Holy Virgin at the foot of the cross. And yes, in the “bad old days” the Mass was the same from coast to coast.
As we are in agreement that the Mass is the representation of His sacrifice on calvary,
does anyone contest the opinion of mine that since V2 most of the changes made diminished reverence for His holy physical presence, and some have made for disunity a-
mongst us?
I think to again have uniformity in the Mass is a worthwhile goal.
As we are in agreement that the Mass is the representation of His sacrifice on calvary,
does anyone contest the opinion of mine that since V2 most of the changes made diminished reverence for His holy physical presence, and some have made for disunity a-
mongst us?
I think to again have uniformity in the Mass is a worthwhile goal.
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karennascargo3
Guest
While I understand the ‘modernization’ of the Church appeals to many and may ‘appear’ to be a good thing in theory, it seems to me that all it has accomplished is to divide the Catholic faith. Just look through the threads here on one single forum; or even within this one thread!
Uniformity isn’t a matter of good, bad, what’s easier, what brings more people in, etc. You have uniformity so that you are ‘united’ together as a body of believers. That’s where the power of our faith enters into the equation. No unity; no spiritual power and you end up with a falling away.
It doesn’t matter what the ‘people’ want. There is and should be a set standard that should be followed to the letter. It’s the job of the Holy Father to determine if these standards still apply and if not, to change them. That means that ALL Catholic Churches follow them. No church, Bishop, or Priest should have the authority to go rouge and interrupt or use whatever other methods they want or think is better.
If you really take a close look at the Catholic Church today, you will see that all these changes and deviances, have done nothing but split the church, caused a loss of members, and disrespect for our faith.
Uniformity isn’t a matter of good, bad, what’s easier, what brings more people in, etc. You have uniformity so that you are ‘united’ together as a body of believers. That’s where the power of our faith enters into the equation. No unity; no spiritual power and you end up with a falling away.
It doesn’t matter what the ‘people’ want. There is and should be a set standard that should be followed to the letter. It’s the job of the Holy Father to determine if these standards still apply and if not, to change them. That means that ALL Catholic Churches follow them. No church, Bishop, or Priest should have the authority to go rouge and interrupt or use whatever other methods they want or think is better.
If you really take a close look at the Catholic Church today, you will see that all these changes and deviances, have done nothing but split the church, caused a loss of members, and disrespect for our faith.
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Lycorth
Guest
Amen; homogeneity is desirable and a necessary part of being catholic - being universal. Something cannot be truly universal unless it applies to all equally and is without alteration.
When we Catholics worshiped as one according to as few variations as possible, the Church was more united and the Faith more vibrant. Now that virtually every parish wants to do things differently, there is less true universality and as a result, a less truly *catholic *atmosphere and culture. That which is less catholic invariably is also less Catholic.
When we Catholics worshiped as one according to as few variations as possible, the Church was more united and the Faith more vibrant. Now that virtually every parish wants to do things differently, there is less true universality and as a result, a less truly *catholic *atmosphere and culture. That which is less catholic invariably is also less Catholic.
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pnewton
Guest
Here is the correct definition:
merriam-webster.com/dictionary/universal
The word addresses where, not how. St. Paul pointed out that the Church is not homogenious in 1 Corinthians 12. The Catholic Church embraces multiple heterogenious rites without requiring all rites conform with the Latin Rite and without sacrificing catholicity. The Church has never been or strove to be homogenious; uniform.
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ProVobis
Guest
Then how do we distinguish the Church from a Protestant church, for example?
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Lycorth
Guest
Sure, different rites have been embraced by the Church, such as the Eastern rite or the Anglican rite. That’s one thing; the issue here is endless variations and lack of discipline *within *rites, the Latin rite in specific, and the problems that such has caused.
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pnewton
Guest
There are many ways. The most glaringly obvious is the tabernacle of the Lord where the Most Holy Eucharist resides.
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pnewton
Guest
I think that is the source of frustration and the real problem. It is especially troublesome when a priest or lay person changes the liturgy on their own and goes outside of the limits imposed by the Church.
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Lycorth
Guest
Indeed, especially when none of the abuses people have been pointing out for the past 40 years were ever called for by the Church or in any way explicitly permitted.
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