When You're Honest With Yourself:

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Voice_of_Reason_1

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When you’re honest with yourself - I mean really, really, honest, - and you think about the capacity for folly in the human mind and the innumerable problems with Christianty (let’s not pretend they’re non-existent; they are blaring), it’s absurd to even imagine the God of the Holy Bible. This is what happened to me. I feel I’ve become an atheist (as recently ago as December 15th). This was my last prayer:

It isn’t a change of rationale or a compelling new proof, a review of historical discrepancies, or the consideration of the nature of tenacity that would completely bankrupt my faith – I know it isn’t – It’s circumstances. I’m well informed that the bible calls for a sorrowful life, a rejection of worldly pleasures and joys; I’m aware that there is great an unforgivable evil in the world, and yet if that evil should rest upon me, God would never again exist in my mind. Faith, however, shouldn’t be circumstantial but cognitive (there are good reasons for believing in a religion, and so on). But a faith which leads to salvation shouldn’t be cognitive either, because there are mental deficients and imbeciles and those simply born with a hard head. And if God has chosen his elect and gives grace to whomever he wills, and destruction to the remainder, who can know or please him? One must accept that their faith is based on unstable tenants, or that they don’t have the cognitive fortitude to know God, or otherwise, are just unworthy of Him. If I participate in one man’s religion, I am doomed to the hellfire of another’s – and if neither cognition nor patronage can save me, in what shall I believe for salvation?
I recognized at once that my faith was neither strong, nor built on strong tenants when I adopted it into my philosophy. My saving grace, so to speak, was in the fact that there are secrets and mysteries and glorious things looming just beneath the cover of medieval literature, and in the hearts and minds of God’s alleged messengers (and what a stronghold that is for people that are content to confirm what they believe in the trite and too-common events of life; what a stronghold it is for those who are unwilling to do the investigation). But what I’ve found is poor reasoning, hatred, condemnation, inconsistencies, variance, atrocities against humanity, and subterfuge. I’ve found hypocrisy and the most unspeakable prescriptions for the treatment and judgement of the world’s sinners. I will believe in all earnestness a God that I know by more than man’s decadent authority, and by reason, if reason is permitted. But reason, if it is from God, I pray, cannot condemn me if it doesn’t also have the capacity to save me.
I’ve tried to repent and forgive, but my remorse has always been for my lack of ability to feel contrite over things which, by their very nature, seem perfectly acceptable. When I first began to believe, I know very well that I needed to. I may never know whether the stronghold was divine or psychological. Now, I don’t want to believe that there is a God or that there isn’t, I just want to know what’s true, whatever the case may be.
If God is listening, He will appreciate that this is the most truthful prayer I’ve ever prayed. Amen.
 
Sounds like you are in a lull, a distancing of sorts from knowing his presence. I’m facing the same thing lately, but it’s only for a short time I know. The actions you take, the thoughts that go through your mind require testing during these times. It’s not about the touchy, feely impressions you are to experience, just to know him, it’s about something else entirely.

There are many times when I felt like Job, where I felt a need to cry out and in anguish, asking why the wicked flourish, and that surmounts to most of your complaints. I guess it’s the next life where they don’t, and we do, that matters more then anything this world has to offer. There are still those of us that are into the old ways, the simpler ways, we yearn for a time when people no longer exploit each other, they quit doing harm to themselves as well, and know this, this world is not us, and this is where you are going to increasingly be frustrated in if you do not make that distinction.

At the same time, you may also be distancing yourself from him unintentionally, be it through sin, or through misconceived notions of his being, and we often forget how much he loves us, yet if your situation with your earthly father is not up to par, it will be that much harder for you to understand your heavenly father, yet the two are not the same to any degree, and I too struggle with this often.

Be honest with yourself, if you are being that, it means you are finding out how little you know, and this is a good thing, for the beginning of wisdom is to admit your ignorance.
 
prodigalson12 said:
Sounds like you are in a lull, a distancing of sorts from knowing his presence. I’m facing the same thing lately, but it’s only for a short time I know. The actions you take, the thoughts that go through your mind require testing during these times. It’s not about the touchy, feely impressions you are to experience, just to know him, it’s about something else entirely.

There are many times when I felt like Job, where I felt a need to cry out and in anguish, asking why the wicked flourish, and that surmounts to most of your complaints. I guess it’s the next life where they don’t, and we do, that matters more then anything this world has to offer. There are still those of us that are into the old ways, the simpler ways, we yearn for a time when people no longer exploit each other, they quit doing harm to themselves as well, and know this, this world is not us, and this is where you are going to increasingly be frustrated in if you do not make that distinction.
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We are not of this world but God CHOSE to put us in this world.

At each Station of the Cross we pray: We adore Thee O Christ and we bless Thee for by the Holy Cross though has redeemed the world.

This world that God has placed is us is the world that Christ has redeemed and continues to redeem.

There are situations in our life that we cannot help. These are God’s choices for us. Our parents, our brothers and sisters, our strengths and weaknesses.

But there are also our own choices. Our choices make us. God’s choices for us and our response to God by our own choices is what God will use to form us into the image of His Son, the one who has come to redeem the world.
At the same time, you may also be distancing yourself from him unintentionally, be it through sin, or through misconceived notions of his being, and we often forget how much he loves us,
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We only ever distance ourselves from God by sin, and sin is not unintentional. Commiting a sin is a conscious act. We may not fully comprehend the depth of our sin but there is still that law that Paul speaks of that God has written in our hearts that prompts us to know what is right or wrong.
yet if your situation with your earthly father is not up to par, it will be that much harder for you to understand your heavenly father, yet the two are not the same to any degree, and I too struggle with this often.
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If we keep spend time with the Son, He will reveal to us how infinitely Loving His Father and Our Father truly is.
Be honest with yourself, if you are being that, it means you are finding out how little you know, and this is a good thing, for the beginning of wisdom is to admit your ignorance.
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Beautiful! Amen 👍
 
Voice_of_Reason said:
When you’re honest with yourself - I mean really, really, honest, - and you think about the capacity for folly in the human mind and the innumerable problems with Christianty (let’s not pretend they’re non-existent; they are blaring), it’s absurd to even imagine the God of the Holy Bible. This is what happened to me. I feel I’ve become an atheist (as recently ago as December 15th). This was my last prayer:

It isn’t a change of rationale or a compelling new proof, a review of historical discrepancies, or the consideration of the nature of tenacity that would completely bankrupt my faith – I know it isn’t – It’s circumstances. I’m well informed that the bible calls for a sorrowful life, a rejection of worldly pleasures and joys; I’m aware that there is great an unforgivable evil in the world, and yet if that evil should rest upon me, God would never again exist in my mind. Faith, however, shouldn’t be circumstantial but cognitive (there are good reasons for believing in a religion, and so on). But a faith which leads to salvation shouldn’t be cognitive either, because there are mental deficients and imbeciles and those simply born with a hard head. And if God has chosen his elect and gives grace to whomever he wills, and destruction to the remainder, who can know or please him? One must accept that their faith is based on unstable tenants, or that they don’t have the cognitive fortitude to know God, or otherwise, are just unworthy of Him. If I participate in one man’s religion, I am doomed to the hellfire of another’s – and if neither cognition nor patronage can save me, in what shall I believe for salvation?
I recognized at once that my faith was neither strong, nor built on strong tenants when I adopted it into my philosophy. My saving grace, so to speak, was in the fact that there are secrets and mysteries and glorious things looming just beneath the cover of medieval literature, and in the hearts and minds of God’s alleged messengers (and what a stronghold that is for people that are content to confirm what they believe in the trite and too-common events of life; what a stronghold it is for those who are unwilling to do the investigation). But what I’ve found is poor reasoning, hatred, condemnation, inconsistencies, variance, atrocities against humanity, and subterfuge. I’ve found hypocrisy and the most unspeakable prescriptions for the treatment and judgement of the world’s sinners. I will believe in all earnestness a God that I know by more than man’s decadent authority, and by reason, if reason is permitted. But reason, if it is from God, I pray, cannot condemn me if it doesn’t also have the capacity to save me.
I’ve tried to repent and forgive, but my remorse has always been for my lack of ability to feel contrite over things which, by their very nature, seem perfectly acceptable. When I first began to believe, I know very well that I needed to. I may never know whether the stronghold was divine or psychological. Now, I don’t want to believe that there is a God or that there isn’t, I just want to know what’s true, whatever the case may be.
If God is listening, He will appreciate that this is the most truthful prayer I’ve ever prayed. Amen.
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The reasons you have given for crossing from faith to unbelief is rather nebulous.

You say reason. But faith is not incompatible with reason. Truth is initially apprehended by reason and faith follows with a leap.

I do not know what denomniation you are leaving to become atheist but I would suggest trying to learn.

Many intellectuals have converted to Catholicism because of the sheer force of reason. They searched for truth and it led them to the Church, to belief.

Something you mentioned about God dispensing grace to whomever He wills inclines me to think that you could be coming from a Protestant background with a very strong Calvinistic slant, hence the echoes of predestination in your post. If the god in my head is like that, i would probably be atheist too.

But that is not the God of the Bible at all. God is Love.

However, if atheism is the result of your attempt at reconciling evil in the world with a God who is supposed to be love, then I suggest you get hold of a book called “Why Does God Permit Evil” by Dom Bruno Webb.

And yes, God is listening, most certainly to an honest heart. So be ready with an open mind and heart to hear God’s Voice when He answers. And you will be a theist once again.🙂
 
When I’m honest with myself, how likely is it that all of you alleged people out there really exist? I mean, how likely is it that anyone would spend Saturday night reading posts and typing up arguments with people whom they couldn’t possibly care about, if they were actually real people?

Much more likely that this site is all an elaborate form of novel, written up by Karl Keating, and that I am the only real person on this site.

Or at least, that’s what Karl Keating wants you to think.
 
prodigalson12 said:
At the same time, you may also be distancing yourself from him unintentionally, be it through sin, or through misconceived notions of his being, and we often forget how much he loves us, yet if your situation with your earthly father is not up to par, it will be that much harder for you to understand your heavenly father, yet the two are not the same to any degree, and I too struggle with this often.

Be honest with yourself, if you are being that, it means you are finding out how little you know, and this is a good thing, for the beginning of wisdom is to admit your ignorance.
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Thank you for your post! I am being as honest with myself as I possibly can. The thing is, I have tried earnestly to be devout, my relationship with my family is very good, my life is extremely satisfying in all its domains, and I’ve tried in futility to get closer to God but I don’t feel anything or think anything. The bible says that fasting and prayer and a devout and contrite heart will bring you closer to God, but it hasn’t happened. When I adopted a belief in God, I was going through a rough time. But I feel like comfort doesn’t come from God, but from the idea that there is this cosmic, celestial, timeless being carrying you on its crest. What I’ve “heard” from God sounds very much like my own thoughts and things I’ve read in the bible. I’ve never experienced miracles, nor have I seen one, nor even heard good evidence for them. I just don’t have any reason to believe. I want to, sorely, but I can’t - I just cannot.
 
benedictus2 said:
The reasons you have given for crossing from faith to unbelief is rather nebulous.

You say reason. But faith is not incompatible with reason. Truth is initially apprehended by reason and faith follows with a leap.

I do not know what denomniation you are leaving to become atheist but I would suggest trying to learn.

Many intellectuals have converted to Catholicism because of the sheer force of reason. They searched for truth and it led them to the Church, to belief.

Something you mentioned about God dispensing grace to whomever He wills inclines me to think that you could be coming from a Protestant background with a very strong Calvinistic slant, hence the echoes of predestination in your post. If the god in my head is like that, i would probably be atheist too.

But that is not the God of the Bible at all. God is Love.

However, if atheism is the result of your attempt at reconciling evil in the world with a God who is supposed to be love, then I suggest you get hold of a book called “Why Does God Permit Evil” by Dom Bruno Webb.

And yes, God is listening, most certainly to an honest heart. So be ready with an open mind and heart to hear God’s Voice when He answers. And you will be a theist once again.🙂
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Hi, thank you for posting! I don’t mean to be vague about what my concerns are; I will try to be a little more specific.

I’m not saying that I think reason is incompatiable with faith; reason has simply lead me away from believing in God. The leap of faith, as you call it, is my concern. The word leap is precisely the subterfuge I’m talking about: reason operates in steps, but leaps opperate on assumptions. We’ll simply jump (or leap) to conclusions without considering why we should do so. I can’t simply leap to what I’ve read and fancy.

I’m well read in the apologetics, both classical and contemporary. I’ve been through all the modes, classes upon classes of philosophy, the entire Summa Theologica, the Bible a number of times. I promise you, there’s nothing, so much, that I have missed in coming to my conclusions. First, my problem with apologists is that they’re apologicians - making logical incongruities disappear, not by explaining, but by explaining away. The fact that Christianty requires such substantial apologetic theorizing is evidence in itself (as far as I’m concerned) that if there is a God, he surely must not want people to come to know him with any ease. He evades us in his counter-intuitive reasoning, his invisable qualities, the fact that prayers are answered at chance-probability, his inability to appeal to the senses in any way, shape, or form. Everything in the human experience, by secular and religious means, evades the very fact of his existence. If anything - I mean anything - suggested there was something greater, or higher, or altogether different from nature, I would believe with such fortitude. But there’s nothing. If God wanted people to come into communion with Him, why are his ways, decrees, and scriptures so unintelligible?

My salvation is said to come from the choices I make, but what, of my own volition, can make me do the right things? Or the wrong things for that matter? I have a biology and an environment which predisposes me to certain traits. And even presupposing God: even if I can act in all freedom and rebel against God, and disbelieve in Him, I never asked for the traits or reasoning or life or circumstances which lead to those conclusions. God, knowing everything, creates people whom He must surely know are going to sin greatly and kindle his wrath and thereby, condition themselves for eternal damnation. Even if there is choice which leads to salvation, God has crafted people who are better or worse able to make the right choice, like I’ve stated, conditioning themselves for Salvation or punishment. The Bible’s way of dealing with this problem does more to defeat its own claims than to treat the problem: what if I’m one of those clay pots made (destined) for destruction? It just doesn’t make any sense.

The fact that we are required to believe against everything else we know about the world; that we must not test God; that we must open our hearts; that we must reject worldly wisdom and seductive philosophies; that we have to pray earnestly and read often to convince ourselves; all seem like religious safeguards to keep faulty thinking well-intact. We are required to lean not on our own understanding, the author of which is allegedly God. I don’t see good reason in it.

Forgive me if I sound harsh or belittling; that is not my intention. I just want all of you to know how vexed I’m feeling with regards to my faith.

Thank you for all of your replies, folks. I hope to hear some more.
 
Voice_of_Reason said:
Thank you for your post! I am being as honest with myself as I possibly can. The thing is, I have tried earnestly to be devout, my relationship with my family is very good, my life is extremely satisfying in all its domains, and I’ve tried in futility to get closer to God but I don’t feel anything or think anything. The bible says that fasting and prayer and a devout and contrite heart will bring you closer to God, but it hasn’t happened. When I adopted a belief in God, I was going through a rough time. But I feel like comfort doesn’t come from God, but from the idea that there is this cosmic, celestial, timeless being carrying you on its crest. What I’ve “heard” from God sounds very much like my own thoughts and things I’ve read in the bible. I’ve never experienced miracles, nor have I seen one, nor even heard good evidence for them. I just don’t have any reason to believe. I want to, sorely, but I can’t - I just cannot.
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Wow, your relationship with your family is very good, your life, extremely satisfying in all domains, I so wish that was the case in my situation, seriously, that would be a dream come true. I struggle with so much in these areas, I guess it’s because of that I have to rely upon God to be there for me exclusively, that helps in my case, for I would not know what I would do without his presence, when he withdraws it, there is no family/life to fall back upon like you have, so these dark nights become very difficult.

Upon reading this, the first thing that comes to mind would be I highly recommend, getting outside of your comfort zone and volunteer at a homeless shelter. If you want to take it a step further, spend your Christmas volunteering at one especially. I think it would be a good gesture on your end to do and I think God would be pleased.

Now, here is a line of scripture, read this forward then read it backwards, and tell me what you think:

James 1:9

The brother in humble circumstances ought to take pride in his high position.
 
prodigalson12 said:
Wow, your relationship with your family is very good, your life, extremely satisfying in all domains, I so wish that was the case in my situation, seriously, that would be a dream come true. I struggle with so much in these areas, I guess it’s because of that I have to rely upon God to be there for me exclusively, that helps in my case, for I would not know what I would do without his presence, when he withdraws it, there is no family/life to fall back upon like you have, so these dark nights become very difficult.

Upon reading this, the first thing that comes to mind would be I highly recommend, getting outside of your comfort zone and volunteer at a homeless shelter. If you want to take it a step further, spend your Christmas volunteering at one especially. I think it would be a good gesture on your end to do and I think God would be pleased.
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Sage advice. To be sure, I already have some volunteering lined up for the Christmas season and hereafter, partly because I find it fulfiling, partly because people need help, and partly because it’s a concession to my eventual placement in social work. I’ll feel better about helping fellow brothers and sisters, but the unfortunate religious strain remains both a cognitive concern, and one ever-present before me.

I’m sorry to hear that you don’t have family and whatever else to fall back on in times of trial and upset. Certainly, you have my sympathy and hopes for better circumstances :). Do you suppose you would feel differently about God if you lived in extreme privilege or despair? The only reason I ask is because I feel in times of minor misfortune we can lay our concerns at the feet of God and be comforted having concluded someone was there to listen, and in times of happiness we can thank God for those good circumstances; but the extremes of either situation make us realize that we are in devastation or that others are by relative comparison, and that no amount of praying has merited the increase or reduction of such trifles or affluence.

Thanks for your reply!
 
Voice_of_Reason said:
I’m sorry to hear that you don’t have family and whatever else to fall back on in times of trial and upset. Certainly, you have my sympathy and hopes for better circumstances :). Do you suppose you would feel differently about God if you lived in extreme privilege or despair? The only reason I ask is because I feel in times of minor misfortune we can lay our concerns at the feet of God and be comforted having concluded someone was there to listen, and in times of happiness we can thank God for those good circumstances; but the extremes of either situation make us realize that we are in devastation or that others are by relative comparison, and that no amount of praying has merited the increase or reduction of such trifles or affluence.
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Dear Voice of Reason,

Let me introduce you to a dear CAF friend of mine who goes by the name of spiritualunity. She’s the owner of the Social Group here called “Christian Resignation / Surrender”. Here’s a link to one of her posts where she describes her suffering, it’s the post dated May 11, '09 at 12:38 am.

forums.catholic-questions.org/group.php?groupid=137&pp=10&page=59

Here’s two paragraphs from her post:

"I spend my time in prayer mostly and pain. I have 5+ chronic illnesses, heart, lungs, nuerological, deterioration of spine,nerves in back, neck and legs. I have only 30% blood circulation from stomach down to toes. I have a rare illness that cause poor circulation also. I grow huge growths that are not cancerous,but get so big inside they push on my internal organs. I have had a couple removed. But I am told no more operations or I will die and that was 2 operations ago. Right now I have a large amount of fluid around my heart.I can not take heart medication because of my rare illness. I was given 10 yrs to live and now I have survived 16. I am stubborn and know also my life is in God’s hands. I suffer from about 50 aliments caused by my rare illness. That generally what I have.

“In this world I lost everything 2 times,house,household items,3 pets,homeless last summer from being abandoned. I am extremely poor. A family member sold my car for bills and promised me to buy me another truck.But refuses to now.It just goes on and on the sufferings I have. I do not want to feel self pity or despair. These are just the facts and I want to learn how to really embrace my sufferings so I can ask Jesus for more and mean it with total love.”

Send her a Private Message. Tell her the phoenix sent you.

:blessyou:
 
Voice_of_Reason said:
Sage advice. To be sure, I already have some volunteering lined up for the Christmas season and hereafter, partly because I find it fulfiling, partly because people need help, and partly because it’s a concession to my eventual placement in social work. I’ll feel better about helping fellow brothers and sisters, but the unfortunate religious strain remains both a cognitive concern, and one ever-present before me.

I’m sorry to hear that you don’t have family and whatever else to fall back on in times of trial and upset. Certainly, you have my sympathy and hopes for better circumstances :). Do you suppose you would feel differently about God if you lived in extreme privilege or despair? The only reason I ask is because I feel in times of minor misfortune we can lay our concerns at the feet of God and be comforted having concluded someone was there to listen, and in times of happiness we can thank God for those good circumstances; but the extremes of either situation make us realize that we are in devastation or that others are by relative comparison, and that no amount of praying has merited the increase or reduction of such trifles or affluence.

Thanks for your reply!
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I had a short time this year where I would consider it filled with extreme privilege, Christ made his presence known to me in a big way, and I look at that as something that can be experienced, and believe me, the gratitude I had during that time was tremendous, yet I relate much better to the extreme despair, and to be honest, that’s what I’m used to, so going onto a higher, happier plane of existence is really just not the normal me and it’s something I have to work on. Along the state of despair, there have been times where God reached out to me and gave me direct comfort, those times yes, they resulted in being closer him, but it’s not to say I have not had plenty of times where it felt like his presence was so distant, and being in despair at the same time was a really bad combination.

I think the volunteer work will do you good in this case, it will allow you to appreciate what you have, which in turn should get you to feel more gratitude for what God has graced you with and increase your empathy for your fellow man that is not in nearly as comfortable of a spot in life.

What I’m seeing, too often, those that have completely turned away from him are given comforts of this world, kind of like the devils trick to keep them pacified, as long as they are not with God, not thinking of him, and live their lives without his presence, the evil one is happy, so he will make consolations for them, just to keep them in his grip, my own brother is a prime example of that one, he has so, so much in all areas, yet has turned away from Christianity in any form all together.

It’s also something here, where you are trying to get God to do something, when you must realize, God has his own free will, and what is it’s not about doing this or that to attain closeness to him, that’s a buddist mentality, man does not reach up to God, it’s more like the other way around, and this is precisely one of the reasons why Christ came in the flesh.

So, what do you do at current, you persevere, you have faith in him to see you through this dry spell, and you analyze yourself, checking to see if pride has crept in, and it’s something we all must keep ourselves in check with. Now, if I were to die today, and if I was still having faith in him, and if his presence stayed distant from me, and I was cast into hell, I still would be singing his praises, but this will not happen because God is a just Lord, and he will not forsake his children. You’ll get through this dry spell, just pray you don’t have to be brought low in order to get out of it, he will find a way to reach you, even in spite of yourself, just give it time and learn patience and trust in him and stop questioning him, his ways are not our ways, his plans are beyond our comprehension, but he has plans for you, you just don’t see them and are perplexed as to the how. This time for you will pass, trust me on this, they will.
 
the_phoenix said:
Dear Voice of Reason,

Let me introduce you to a dear CAF friend of mine who goes by the name of spiritualunity. She’s the owner of the Social Group here called “Christian Resignation / Surrender”. Here’s a link to one of her posts where she describes her suffering, it’s the post dated May 11, '09 at 12:38 am.

forums.catholic-questions.org/group.php?groupid=137&pp=10&page=59

Here’s two paragraphs from her post:

"I spend my time in prayer mostly and pain. I have 5+ chronic illnesses, heart, lungs, nuerological, deterioration of spine,nerves in back, neck and legs. I have only 30% blood circulation from stomach down to toes. I have a rare illness that cause poor circulation also. I grow huge growths that are not cancerous,but get so big inside they push on my internal organs. I have had a couple removed. But I am told no more operations or I will die and that was 2 operations ago. Right now I have a large amount of fluid around my heart.I can not take heart medication because of my rare illness. I was given 10 yrs to live and now I have survived 16. I am stubborn and know also my life is in God’s hands. I suffer from about 50 aliments caused by my rare illness. That generally what I have.

“In this world I lost everything 2 times,house,household items,3 pets,homeless last summer from being abandoned. I am extremely poor. A family member sold my car for bills and promised me to buy me another truck.But refuses to now.It just goes on and on the sufferings I have. I do not want to feel self pity or despair. These are just the facts and I want to learn how to really embrace my sufferings so I can ask Jesus for more and mean it with total love.”

Send her a Private Message. Tell her the phoenix sent you.

:blessyou:
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I talked to her on the phone a while ago, you would not believe what a strong person she is, what a trouper, this is a person to be very much looked up to!!! God bless you and her
 
Let me address some of your points:
  1. The notion that the life according to God’s Will means sorrow and the abandonment of worldly pleasures:
As someone who has passed a phase of being an anti-theist, I can say that I understand what you mean. There is a problem in your thinking though:
Why does the holy life seem sorrowful? Ever wondered about that? We read in the Bible that everything was good when God created it, but evil was introduced to creation by disobedience: the first sin. A good examples of “frustrating religious law” would be the command to chastity. I personally felt it as tyranny at first: God imposing something upon me that I did not like forcing me to forsake such a great and enjoyable part of life as sexuality.
If you have really lived a life not caring about God, you would realize that it does not make happy: and precisely that is what God wants us to be: to be eternally happy. This is why we are created out of love, to love and to be loved for all eternity. Afterall, God IS love.
The life without God is one that makes you run from one temporal pleasure to the next. But everyting will come to pass. Disappointment is part of the package since loss is inevitable in a temporal world. That said: there is no lasting happiness to be found in the world. This is also why the Bible teaches us to “seek first the Kingdom of God”: we are to set our gaze upon what is Eternal, i.e. God, because in Him alone can we find true happiness. Certainly, such a life is not easy, but I can say that it is much more fulfilling that anything else the world can offer.
To love means to be ready for sacrifice. But sacrifice does not mean despair. Christ sacrificed Himself for us all. That is true love. What the world offers are only illusions that will pass away the sooner or later leaving you with nothing in the end. Attachment to the world is easy and temporally pleasing. But it leads to loss. Obedience to God leads to hardships in this life because we live in a world that hates God. But then again, consider this: what is truly valuable is never attained easily. It is easy to destroy, but hard to build.
  1. Regarding the mentally deficient:
If they know not what they do: they are not culpable of mortal sin which is the sin that leads people to hell. Thus, they only need to be baptized. They actually have a pretty good life imho.
  1. Choosing one religion merits the condemnation of others:
Sure. And becoming an atheist will merit you the condemnation of all religions. You do not disprove any religion by simply claiming that God does not exist. If any of all the religions happen to be right, then you’re in trouble.
  1. The problem with “reason”:
As some others have stated correctly already: Faith & Reason are not opposites.

I personally find there to be plenty of excellent arguments for the existence of God: and just because they were formulated by medieval thinkers does not mean they are wrong.

Here would be a Catholic philosopher:
youtube.com/user/theologica37?blend=1&ob=4

On the issue of hypocrisy, etc.:

The existence of bad people does not make a doctrine taught by Christianity false. Even the worst person on the face of this planet can speak truth. Block the things that lead you away from the real issue.
  1. a final note:
When people start to claim they are losing faith because of “intellectual problems”, I normally become suspicious. In most cases, people who abandon their faith just use “reason” as an artificial argument with the real cause for one’s apostasy lying in one’s vehement rejection of one of the commandments set out by religion. In most cases, the commandment rejected is that of chastity: this leads to lukewarm tendencies at first, then eventually to apostasy.

It is basically a fundamental refusal to subject oneself totally under God’s guidance. Instead of following God, one seeks to run away from Him - even without good reasons - just to feel oneself “free” enough to do what one wants a la “my will be done, not Yours”.
 
Greetings and peace be with you Voice of Reason,

Faith in God is more about doing something, rather than gaining knowledge, and volunteering to help others is so powerful. Just some thoughts that may help you to reflect on

Jesus obeyed the greatest commandments whilst on Earth?

Jesus loves God the Father with all of his heart, soul, mind and strength.
Jesus loves each and every one of us as he loves himself?

Can the forgiveness of sins hang on the greatest commandments ?
When the people of Jeruselam shouted, crucify him; did Jesus forgive them, in order that he should love them as he loved himself? When the soldiers scurged him, and nailed him to the cross, did he forgive them, so that he should keep the second greatest commandment?

It seems that every time Jesus suffered injustice here on Earth, he had to forgive, in order that he should continue to love the sinners as he loved himself. After the acsencion of Jesus into heaven, does Jesus still forgive us, in order that he should keep loving each and every one of us as he loves himself. What kind of a burden do we place on Jesus with our sins? Can Jesus love us more than he loves himself?

Blessings,
Eric
 
Hi!

I just wanted to tell you my reaction to your post. It may be even more pessimistic than your post. For starters, we cannot be honest with ourselves. All our observations are wholly and completely subjective if we start from ourselves, intrinsically. That is despair, because you cannot avoid statements “like I am insane and I do not know it” or “I do not really know what the universe is like” because you have no objective base. That objective base, by definition, must lie outside yourself. You cannot help yourself. You cannot solve this one on your own. Period.

So where does your help lie? There is a lot of material on this, but a God Who laid down His life that you may live is one you can turn to. George McDonald talked about faith being like a dark well you throw yourself down - the central idea being complete surrender without chance of backing out of it. That only makes sense if you have no other course of action available. “If you are honest with yourself” - to use your phrase - you will realize that you really do have no other options. Why? Because God set it up that way, that you would turn to Him, and it is actually a sign of His prevenient grace that this bothers you. If you are really honest with God - and you can be only with His help - you will recognize your need of Him. He does not need you but boy do you need Him.

Sorry - I may be being presumptuous posting this on a Catholic apologetic forum but I think there is nothing here that is not fully Catholic. I’m just trying to help and I feel your pain. Been there, done that.:o There is a way out of your situation and it is a well-worn path. It leads to Calvary, and resurrection and glory.

-Tina 🙂
 
the_phoenix said:
Dear Voice of Reason,

Let me introduce you to a dear CAF friend of mine who goes by the name of spiritualunity. She’s the owner of the Social Group here called “Christian Resignation / Surrender”. Here’s a link to one of her posts where she describes her suffering, it’s the post dated May 11, '09 at 12:38 am.

forums.catholic-questions.org/group.php?groupid=137&pp=10&page=59

Here’s two paragraphs from her post:

"I spend my time in prayer mostly and pain. I have 5+ chronic illnesses, heart, lungs, nuerological, deterioration of spine,nerves in back, neck and legs. I have only 30% blood circulation from stomach down to toes. I have a rare illness that cause poor circulation also. I grow huge growths that are not cancerous,but get so big inside they push on my internal organs. I have had a couple removed. But I am told no more operations or I will die and that was 2 operations ago. Right now I have a large amount of fluid around my heart.I can not take heart medication because of my rare illness. I was given 10 yrs to live and now I have survived 16. I am stubborn and know also my life is in God’s hands. I suffer from about 50 aliments caused by my rare illness. That generally what I have.

“In this world I lost everything 2 times,house,household items,3 pets,homeless last summer from being abandoned. I am extremely poor. A family member sold my car for bills and promised me to buy me another truck.But refuses to now.It just goes on and on the sufferings I have. I do not want to feel self pity or despair. These are just the facts and I want to learn how to really embrace my sufferings so I can ask Jesus for more and mean it with total love.”

Send her a Private Message. Tell her the phoenix sent you.

:blessyou:
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Hello, thank you for your post! I appreciate the reflection on embracing God against circumstances. These stories are sad and very unfortunate. However, my difficulty isn’t particularly with the problem of evil (although it doesn’t help my faith), but rather the elusivity of God and His seemingly deterministic ways.
 
Voice_of_Reason said:
If anything - I mean anything - suggested there was something greater, or higher, or altogether different from nature, I would believe with such fortitude. But there’s nothing.
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What about nature itself? The fact that there is something, as opposed to nothing, surely points to something(/one?) outside of nature to have created it.
My salvation is said to come from the choices I make, but what, of my own volition, can make me do the right things? Or the wrong things for that matter? I have a biology and an environment which predisposes me to certain traits.
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Ah, but friend, addicts overcome their addiction, criminals are reformed, these people are great examples of the will triumphing over its previous choices.
 
Spirithound said:
What about nature itself? The fact that there is something, as opposed to nothing, surely points to something(/one?) outside of nature to have created it.

Ah, but friend, addicts overcome their addiction, criminals are reformed, these people are great examples of the will triumphing over its previous choices.
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There is a huge epistemic gap between there being something and there being the Christian Deity. Too many assumptions form the basis of that argument.

Will has been smuggled into the conlusion if we say that people perservere against adversity. While that may be truth, the addicts who recover vs. the addicts who OD are distinguished, still further, by their environment and biology. What you call Will, I might, in this instance, call perserverence and some people have a higher propensity for it that others; some people may have an environment that supports and encourages it more than others.

Thank you for your reply!
 
I really appreciate all the other replies that I have not adressed specifically. There is a reason for this: I cannot begin to believe in the folly of my thinking based on the very things that I’m questioning. When I’m told that I am mistaken about God’s nature because of this or that, or the Fall, or the Evil One, or Pride, or Sin, or whatever, we’ve first assumed that I believe in those things steadfastly, which I don’t, necessarily.

Regarding the response to Shlomey’s post, on the mentally deficient. If they know not what they do, and are saved, am I saved because I know not what I do? If there’s something that must be known about God, and I don’t know it, clearly neither I, nor the mentally deficient, have been endowed with anything that would reveal to us a heavenly Father.
 
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