Where are the atheists coming from?

[Hitetlen]

MulusChristi:

Hello Hitetlen,
Greetings from another “stupid, ignorant, cowardly, brainwashed Catholic”. Welcome to the forums!

Thank you for the welcome, and please drop those adjectives. People’s religion does not have any predictive value about their mental faculties, not about their character. Pascal (for example) was a brilliant mathematician, too bad that he stopped practicing it. But he was a lousy philosopher - as attested to by the “wager” associated with him. (Ne sutor ultra crepidam!)

MulusChristi:

You mention you are an atheist and libertarian. Are you a Randian or objective epistemologist? I got a big kick out of Ayn Rand in college, but had to reject her philosophy because atheism was at its very heart.

No, I am not a Randian. She is much too simplistic on some issues. Observe, that I am a lower case “libertarian”, and I do not agree with many things that the Libertarian Party advocates.

 

[mlchance]

Hitetlen:

Of course you know that the Purgatory is not mentioned in the Bible…

Neither are you. (And, yes, the doctrine of Purgatory is biblical.)

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[LSK]

Hitetlen:

I have no idea. For me it was a new discovery. And I would vehemently deny that believers of any kind are “stupid, ignorant, cowardly, brainwashed”. I hope to learn from you, and therefore my finite time is not wasted. And as I said in my first post, if you say that I am not welcome here, all you have to do is say so, and I will disappear. To have a civilized, respectful conversation can only be beneficial for both sides, at least that is my opinion.

Just a little joke. The sign on an atheist’s tombstone says: “Here lies an atheist, all dressed up and nowhere to go.” I hope you like it.

That’s funny…

And you are welcome, and of course you can engage in thoughtful discussion here. I thing you were lead here, myself, and did not stumble on it. But then again, I believe so…

May I suggest you familiarize yourself with the Catechism so that you have a better foundation for your questions?

 

[Hitetlen]

LSK:

May I suggest you familiarize yourself with the Catechism so that you have a better foundation for your questions?

A worthy suggestion, but I am more inclined to talk to people, than reading abstract books about ideas. I cannot talk back to a book.

 

[Hitetlen]

mlchance:

And, yes, the doctrine of Purgatory is biblical.

Could you point me to references? I am always willing to admit my ignorance.

 

[mikew262]

Hitetlen:

So here comes a problem:

Suppose, there are two people, one of them has been a horrible person all his life, wantonly killing, torturing children, adults, indiscriminately. At the end of his life, he truly repents and asks for forgiveness.

The other one has been a loving, caring person all his life, dedicating his time to help the needy, trying to make their life better, never asking anything for himself, but… he is an atheist.

What will happen to them when they die?

I think you know what a believer is going to say. I assume you are trying generate some discussion. Here goes (IMO):

Lifelong sinner who accepted God at the end and repented will probably go to Heaven. Why? He had faith at the end and asked for forgiveness.

Nice atheist will probably end up in Hell. Why? He did the works, but he did not have the faith.

Of course, God has the ultimate say.

There you go.

 

[steveandersen]

Hitetlen:

Better make it an “H”…

“H”? Heathen, Hitetlen, Hellion, Harlot of Babylon, Hellbent, Heaven Sent,…Henry?

Hitetlen:

No, no… it was very interesting. I learned quite a bit from them, though nothing that I would accept, for sure. But it was quite surprising that people in this age can be so ignorant that they actually believe that the Earth is a mere 6000 years old. …

you know, I don’t mind (too much) folks who explain it solely in terms of faith.
“God did it” might not be satisfying for a technically minded person but for many people apparently suffices.

I mean if you’re willing to concede that there is a transcendent God then the creation of a 6,000 year old world that just happens to look exactly like it is 14 billion is not really much more of a leap.
It of course raises the question of “why” He would do such a thing since He’s transcendent then waiting a few billion years has no meaning. But if you’re willing to concede a God that can do such a thing in the first place then questioning His motives is kinda like the amoeba looking back up the microscope.

What really bugs me is the folks who try to use naturalistic explanations to shoehorn history into 6,000 years. I know I should be charitable but it is just sloppy and it bugs me.

 

[vluvski]

Hitetlen:

So here comes a problem:

Suppose, there are two people, one of them has been a horrible person all his life, wantonly killing, torturing children, adults, indiscriminately. At the end of his life, he truly repents and asks for forgiveness.

The other one has been a loving, caring person all his life, dedicating his time to help the needy, trying to make their life better, never asking anything for himself, but… he is an atheist.

What will happen to them when they die?

What happens? Well, they’ll be judged by God. I suppose you mean where will they go. I may not know the answer, but I do know it’s not nowhere.

 

[Hitetlen]

mikew262:

I think you know what a believer is going to say. I assume you are trying generate some discussion. Here goes (IMO):

Lifelong sinner who accepted God at the end and repented will probably go to Heaven. Why? He had faith at the end and asked for forgiveness.

Nice atheist will probably end up in Hell. Why? He did the works, but he did not have the faith.

Of course, God has the ultimate say.

There you go.

I understand your point. And it underlines what I wanted to say: what kind of entity would disregard a lifelong adherence to the principles of behavior that is benevolent to all affected by it, and still mete out eternal tornment, punishment as a “prize”, just for lacking the “faith”? I am not questioning God here (after all I don’t believe that he exists), rather the general assumption, that God is infinitely “good”, even after committing such a horrific act.

Words are supposed to have meanings. If a human would behave like God supposedly does in this scenario, that human would be considered evil, absolutely evil, not good. If the word “loving” or “good” means something totally different when it is applied to humans vs. applied to God, then there is only confusion, lack of understanding.

Another problem (in my eyes): one cannot “undo” the prior evil acts by repentence. If a father beats his child to a bloody pulp for no reason at all (not that such an act could be justified), and later gives the kid a lollipop, that does not “undo” the previous acts. Even if he mends his ways later on, and becomes a perfect father, the past cannot be changed.

 

[Hitetlen]

“H”? Heathen, Hitetlen, Hellion, Harlot of Babylon, Hellbent, Heaven Sent,…Henry?

“H” for “Heathen”, the word “Hitetlen” literally means “unbeliever” in (guess what?) Hungarian… funny coincidence.

steveandersen:

What really bugs me is the folks who try to use naturalistic explanations to shoehorn history into 6,000 years. I know I should be charitable but it is just sloppy and it bugs me.

I sure agree with this.

 

[Hitetlen]

vluvski:

What happens? Well, they’ll be judged by God. I suppose you mean where will they go. I may not know the answer, but I do know it’s not nowhere.

I hope you don’t mind my correction: you don’t know, you just believe it, you may even have a very strong conviction, but that is not knowledge.

 

[mlchance]

Hitetlen:

Could you point me to references? I am always willing to admit my ignorance.

The doctrine of Purgatory is implicit in 1 Peter 3:19, Matthew 12:32, 1 Corinthians 3:15, 2 Maccabees 12:43–45, Revelation 21:27, and Romans 5:3–5. The doctrine of Purgatory contradicts neither logic nor Scripture.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[Beebs]

Hitetlen

I was wondering if you have ever read Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis.

Lewis was a former athiest.

Beebs

 

[estesbob]

Hitetlen:

So here comes a problem:

Suppose, there are two people, one of them has been a horrible person all his life, wantonly killing, torturing children, adults, indiscriminately. At the end of his life, he truly repents and asks for forgiveness.

The other one has been a loving, caring person all his life, dedicating his time to help the needy, trying to make their life better, never asking anything for himself, but… he is an atheist.

What will happen to them when they die?

The former will go the heaven, the latter to hell. we dont buy our way into heaven

 

[IanS]

Hitetlen:

What is the “P” word??? I have no idea. But rest assured, I am an atheist, an abominable heathen. Moreover, I am a staunch libertarian, a firm believer of personal rights and responsibilities.

Welcome! I’m glad you have at lest some interest in the Catholic Church, for whatever reason.

Interesting description of yourself. It sounds like the way I was for the better part of my life. I was born into a secular family and raised to be an atheist. I was also an abominable heathen and was pretty libertarian in my views. If you want to discuss anything, let me know.

 

[Hitetlen]

Beebs:

Hitetlen

I was wondering if you have ever read Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis.

Lewis was a former athiest.

Beebs

No, I have not. However I did read the “Case for Faith” and was very much unimpressed - to say the least. I also tried to read “Evidence that demands a verdict”, but I was unable to finish it, it was just horribly disorganized, and the parts I read, were pretty lousy.

I also read Rabbi Kuschner’s “When bad things happen to good people”, and I was very pleasantly surprised. It was a well written book, and I agreed with his analysis. The author understood that the attributes of God: omniscient, omnipotent and omnibenevolent cannot be reconciled with the existense of evil in the world. Most refreshing to see that there are religious people who understand this contradiction.

 

[Hitetlen]

IanS:

Welcome! I’m glad you have at lest some interest in the Catholic Church, for whatever reason.

Interesting description of yourself. It sounds like the way I was for the better part of my life. I was born into a secular family and raised to be an atheist. I was also an abominable heathen and was pretty libertarian in my views. If you want to discuss anything, let me know.

Actually, I was raised moderately religious. My parents were lukewarm religious, but that can be understood by the fact that my mother was Catholic and my father Presbyterian, and my mother was excommunicated from the church - because she had the audacity to marry a Protestant. My grandparents (on my mother’s side) were very strongly Catholic, and they had some influence on me.

It may be interesting that I was expected to pray for my brother every night, even if we had some (minor) fight, which is nothing special between brothers. However, I was very uncomfortable with this, even though I did not know the word: “hypocrisy”, but I sure understood what it means. It was impossible for me to fathom (I was very young, around 6-7 years) why should I pray for him, when he pissed me off.

Still, in my teenage years we went to church every week, also to Bible studies. That was another strange thing. I observed the habitual “witnessing” (I don’t know if it exists in Catholicism), but it is close to open confession, when we were supposed to declare our unworthiness, and generally “degrade” ourselves. That I hated, it smelled very hypocritical to me. I always knew who and what I am, (pride is a mortal sin, I know) and it felt ridiculous to say all sorts of bad things about myself, when I did not feel that way.

Anyhow… that was then, this is now. A hard-core atheist with a lot of curiosity about why are people the way they are.

 

[vluvski]

Hitetlen:

I hope you don’t mind my correction: you don’t know, you just believe it, you may even have a very strong conviction, but that is not knowledge.

One cannot know whether there is a God or afterlife any more than one can know that everything else we think we know is true.
I am always sad for people who believe that knowledge must be proven. Belief becomes knowledge when it is aligned with the truth, not when it is proven. This is why so many people struggle with the final step in Catholicism: accepting the proclaimation that it is the One, True Church. Others have beliefs with elements of truth and knowledge; we have the Fullness of the Truth.

 

[Hitetlen]

vluvski:

One cannot know whether there is a God or afterlife any more than one can know that everything else we think we know is true.

That is simply not true. I know that I exist, without any doubt. I know that you exist (but not much else about you). There are lots of things we know. There are also many things we know with a certain probability. I don’t “know” that there will be tomorrow, but there is a very strong chance that there will be. I don’t “know” that my wife never cheated on me, but I have very strong evidence (24 years of happy marriage) that elevates that “knowledge” to almost certainty.

I don’t know, but I suspect that there are other intelligent beings in the Universe. There is absolutely no evidence for it, but the laws of probability make it a very good bet.

It is possible that there exists a being (or beings) who might have played a serious role in the formation of our Universe. That possibility is very remote. However, I know that logical contradictions cannot exist: there are no square circles, there are no married bachelors, etc.

vluvski:

Belief becomes knowledge when it is aligned with the truth, not when it is proven.

There is no truth unless it is proven. Until that it is just a hope, or wishful thinking.

Yes, it is a beautiful anagram: “Quid est veritas?” “Est vir qui adest” - but it is just a linguistic game.

 

[BlindSheep]

Hitetlen:

That is simply not true. I know that I exist, without any doubt. I know that you exist (but not much else about you).

No you don’t. He could be a computer program designed by psychologists to systematically undermine your self esteem and drive you to suicide. (In which case, he would not exist as a person)

There are lots of things we know. There are also many things we know with a certain probability. I don’t “know” that there will be tomorrow, but there is a very strong chance that there will be. I don’t “know” that my wife never cheated on me, but I have very strong evidence (24 years of happy marriage) that elevates that “knowledge” to almost certainty.

I don’t know, but I suspect that there are other intelligent beings in the Universe. There is absolutely no evidence for it, but the laws of probability make it a very good bet.

It is possible that there exists a being (or beings) who might have played a serious role in the formation of our Universe. That possibility is very remote. However, I know that logical contradictions cannot exist: there are no square circles, there are no married bachelors, etc.

But you do not know that he does not know that atheists will go somewhere when they die! You believe he doesn’t.

There is no truth unless it is proven. Until that it is just a hope, or wishful thinking.

Prove there is no truth unless it is proven - until you do, your statement is “just a hope, or wishful thinking”.