Where are the excommunications?

[mightyaphrodite]

I agree that those who knowingly contradict intrinsic Church teaching excommunicate themselves, but I am puzzled by “…excommunication is now far less likely than ever to achieve any good, and far more likely than ever to do real harm to all involved, by hardening the unrepentant in their attitudes for starters.”

If our faith does not rebuke evil, who will believe us when we shine a spotlight on courageous goodness, as evidenced by St Maximillian Kolbe? St Thomas Aquinas tells us that we must not judge, but we must defend our faith.

I think if we place our sincere and complete trust in God, He demonstrates His ability to melt hearts and bring people to Him without concern if hearts are “hardened”. I cannot help but think of two formerly “unrepentent” persecutors of the innocent, St. Paul and repentant abortionist, Dr. Bernard Nathanson, who was led to shine a spotlight on the horror of abortion.

Finally, I note the kind and private way Bishop Thomas Tobin of Providence, RI, attempted to counsel Patrick Kennedy in a private manner and was publicly rebuffed by the Congressman. Courageously and lovingly, Bishop Tobin did not hide under a pew but sought to guide Kennedy regarding the intrinsic evil of abortion.

Let us pray that pro-abortion “Catholics” will return to the truth of the Catholic Church - I, for one, will welcome them home.

 

[PJM]

=PiousTemplar;8121956]Where are they these days? I just don’t understand! We have politicians that are ‘catholic’ then fully accept abortion, and various other crimes against humanity. We also non-catholic celebrities and various other political figures going up the isles to receive Holy Communion.

Where are the obvious excommunications on these people? Why don’t the Bishops publicly denounce these actions and literally say ‘These people are excommunicated for so-and-so’?

Sorry If I am out of line here, I just find it hard to accept we see these people time and time again, with no disciplinary action done against them. Thoughts?

here are some of the reasons IMO.

Fear, ignorance of canon law, unbelief that they are wrong, fear of being called judgmental.

LOOK at Bishops who will NOT take a stand on NOT permitting Holy Communion to these same politicians. Many DO [THANK GOD! ] BUT many do not

I’m NOT sure that they have the power to excomunicate them for these offences? Even the ones who’d like too.

God Bless,
Pat

 

[Fink]

Put up with!? Are you kidding?

Deadly serious.

You and I are both sinners and have no right aproaching the altar of God’s mercy. We don’t even deserve to be alive but for God’s love for us. Who are we to demand that others be excommunicated when we ourselves deserve to be thrown into hell for all eternity for our sins?

Hope youve cooled down a bit. Unlike you and me, these very public politicians are very public sinners. Theyre bringing contempt and ridicule on the Church.
Remember that, from those who have been given much, much is expected.

And what if they were excommunicated? What good would that do us. How would that help you or I to be a saint and to get into heaven?

You seem to think that my outlook is all about** SELF.** You`ve taken the bull by the tail. i love the Church; and hate to see the stuffing being kicked out of her by these contemptuous public figures. i love and respect Holy Mother Church for her own sake; not just for mine. i believe in a thing (now, almost deceased) called** “Loyalty”.**

We are dogs, unfit to eat the scraps off Jesus’ table. How is anyone being excommunicated “Throwning a scrap” to me?

Again, you think im concerned only with** SELF.** Youve taken the “throwing the odd scrap” out of context.

If we worried half as much about our own sins and made half as much effort to live a life of virtue as we spent time and effort worrying and complainng about the sins of others, we would be a church full of saints and no secular politician would be able to stand up to us.

Again, the great majority of us peasants in the pews aren`t causing blatant public scandal.

Anyone who demands punishment of another for their sins might want to duck and take cover.

-Tim-

It depends on the motive for demanding punishment.

CMatt25: (#17)
Do you really think that these politicians are so thin-skinned that they`d be deeply hurt if they knew they were being called such nasty names as “termites”? Actually, that name is more applicable to the ones who undermine the Church in secret.

 

[PiousTemplar]

Put up with!? Are you kidding?

You and I are both sinners and have no right aproaching the altar of God’s mercy. We don’t even deserve to be alive but for God’s love for us. Who are we to demand that others be excommunicated when we ourselves deserve to be thrown into hell for all eternity for our sins?

There is a difference - orthodox Catholics try their best to keep out of sin and to live with Christ by following the Church’s teachings. Catholic politicians who directly push forward an agenda that they know is completely contradicting the teaching of the Church obviously do not care about the Church or it’s teachings. That is what gives an excommunication.

And what if they were excommunicated? What good would that do us. How would that help you or I to be a saint and to get into heaven? We are dogs, unfit to eat the scraps off Jesus’ table. How is anyone being excommunicated “Throwning a scrap” to me?

**It would make it beyond obvious to all that what they were doing was directly against the teachings of the Church, therefore re-affirming the faithful, and giving a wake up call to heterodox Catholics. **

If we worried half as much about our own sins and made half as much effort to live a life of virtue as we spent time and effort worrying and complainng about the sins of others, we would be a church full of saints and no secular politician would be able to stand up to us.

It is the Church’s given authority to teach and guide the faithful. When we have ‘Catholics’ directly opposing the teaching of the Church and leading even more Catholics astray, an excommunication guides the faithful away from what that danger was.

Anyone who demands punishment of another for their sins might want to duck and take cover.

An excommunication is not a punishment. It is rather a gift that shows the heterodox Catholic(s) that they are promoting sin and they need to turn back to Christ and his Church.

-Tim-

 

[TimothyH]

Please explain to me when you feel it’s okay for church discipline to be administered. I’m not trying to be confrontational, it’s just that based on my impressions of this you feel nobody has a right to be disappointed when they are receiving communion right beside Andrew Cuomo who stands directly opposed to the Church’s teachings.

It is OK for the Church to discipline whomever it sees fit, whenever it sees fit. You and I both know that. I’m not trying to be confrontational either.

You are absolutely correct in your impression of what I feel. Nobody has the “Right” to anything, not even to life itself, especially with regards to the sacraments. We are beggars invited to the Banquet of the Lord and if it were not for his grace, we should be thrown into Hell for eternity for our sins.

If Andrew Cuomo wants to stand right beside me and recieve communion, that is nothing to me. Both he and I will stand before God and will be judged on our own lives. And the priests placed in a position of responsiblity for our souls will have to stand before God and explain why we were allowed to recieve or why we were not allowed to recieve. No, nobody, you and I included, have a right to be dissapointed when someone else does or does not recieve communion - and that is not my teaching but the teaching of our Lord Jesus Christ.

"Two people went up to the temple area to pray; one was a Pharisee and the other was a tax collector. The Pharisee took up his position and spoke this prayer to himself, ‘O God, I thank you that I am not like the rest of humanity–greedy, dishonest, adulterous–or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week, and I pay tithes on my whole income.’ But the tax collector stood off at a distance and would not even raise his eyes to heaven but beat his breast and prayed, ‘O God, be merciful to me a sinner.’ I tell you, the latter went home justified, not the former; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and the one who humbles himself will be exalted." (Luke 18:10-14)

Our Lord teaches us to take the log out of our own eye first. Our Lord teaches the 99 sheep to stay patiently in the sheepfold without worrying, while he goes out to search for one lost sheep. There seems to be a whole lot of shepherds but few willing to be sheep. Our Lord teaches us that the wheat and the weeds are to be left to grow together, and that they will be seperated at the time of the master’s harvest. There seem to be a whole lot of harvesters but not so many willing to be harvested. For all the demands that others adhere to the rules of the Church, few seem to be adhering to the plain rules of our Lord and King Jesus Christ as given to us in scripture.

If we were really honest, we would admit that we are quick to point out the faults of others but unable to bear it when other’s point out our faults, that we are quick to rebuke others but slow to correct ourselves, and that we are more like the Pharisee in Luke 18 than the tax collector.

-Tim-

 

[CMatt25]

CMatt25: (#17)
Do you really think that these politicians are so thin-skinned that they`d be deeply hurt if they knew they were being called such nasty names as “termites”? Actually, that name is more applicable to the ones who undermine the Church in secret.

In your earlier post it appeared you were responding to schaick’s post where it was said, “So many are leaving the Catholic Church on their own, many Catholics don’t agree or even understand Catholic Church teachings- would too many have to be excommunicated?”

So I thought you were not only referring to politicians but to those many who are not. And it again appears I was right as you now say your termite description is more applicable to those who as you put it, undermine" the Church in secret.

 

[Rogare]

You are absolutely correct in your impression of what I feel. Nobody has the “Right” to anything, not even to life itself, especially with regards to the sacraments. We are beggars invited to the Banquet of the Lord and if it were not for his grace, we should be thrown into Hell for eternity for our sins.

If Andrew Cuomo wants to stand right beside me and recieve communion, that is nothing to me. Both he and I will stand before God and will be judged on our own lives. And the priests placed in a position of responsiblity for our souls will have to stand before God and explain why we were allowed to recieve or why we were not allowed to recieve. No, nobody, you and I included, have a right to be dissapointed when someone else does or does not recieve communion - and that is not my teaching but the teaching of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Our Lord teaches us to take the log out of our own eye first. Our Lord teaches the 99 sheep to stay patiently in the sheepfold without worrying, while he goes out to search for one lost sheep. There seems to be a whole lot of shepherds but few willing to be sheep. Our Lord teaches us that the wheat and the weeds are to be left to grow together, and that they will be seperated at the time of the master’s harvest. There seem to be a whole lot of harvesters but not so many willing to be harvested. For all the demands that others adhere to the rules of the Church, few seem to be adhering to the plain rules of our Lord and King Jesus Christ as given to us in scripture.

If we were really honest, we would admit that we are quick to point out the faults of others but unable to bear it when other’s point out our faults, that we are quick to rebuke others but slow to correct ourselves, and that we are more like the Pharisee in Luke 18 than the tax collector.

-Tim-

You show an overly naive impression of what the Scriptures teach. Of course we are all sinners, there’s no question about that. As a previous poster mentioned a faithful Catholic who is honestly following the Lord’s teachings will do everything possible to be a light to the world and salt to the Earth. Do you really think that Andrew Cuomo is attempting to do the same? He represents everything that God finds abominable with the world.

Jesus said we would know the wolves by their fruits (Matthew 7:16). How on Earth can we tell who the false teachers are? Well, by judging! Jesus said to judge with a righteous judgement (John 7:24). There is nothing hypocritical about excommunicating Andrew Cuomo for his anti-biblical, anti-Church stance on homosexuality. That’s what the Church is for! Otherwise, he is going to lead many faithful Catholics astray.

The Bible is replete with commands to have nothing to do with those who don’t follow Christ’s / the Church’s teachings:

Now I urge you, brethren, keep your eye on those who cause dissensions and hindrances contrary to the teaching which you learned, and turn away from them. (Romans 16:17).

Now we command you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from any brother who is walking in idleness and not in accord with the tradition that you received from us. (2 Thes. 3:6)

Let’s look a Biblical example:

1It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that does not occur even among pagans: A man has his father’s wife. 2And you are proud! Shouldn’t you rather have been filled with grief and have put out of your fellowship the man who did this? 3Even though I am not physically present, I am with you in spirit. And I have already passed judgment on the one who did this, just as if I were present. 4When you are assembled in the name of our Lord Jesus and I am with you in spirit, and the power of our Lord Jesus is present, 5hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord.

6Your boasting is not good. Don’t you know that a little yeast works through the whole batch of dough? 7Get rid of the old yeast that you may be a new batch without yeast—as you really are. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. 8Therefore let us keep the Festival, not with the old yeast, the yeast of malice and wickedness, but with bread without yeast, the bread of sincerity and truth.

9I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat. (1 Corinthians 5:1-11)

Paul is seriously mad because the Corinthians are associating with someone who claims to be a brother yet is living a sexually immoral life (or is greedy, an idolator, slanderer, drunkard, or swindler. Look at the very last verse:

With such a man do not even eat.

If you are willing to share the Lord’s banquet with someone who Paul would forbid, then you need to readdress your priorities.

 

[Fink]

In your earlier post it appeared you were responding to schaick’s post …

…as you now say your termite description is more applicable to those who as you put it, undermine" the Church in secret.

You`re right. For some reason, i got the idea you were referring to politicians specifically. But, in any case, “termites” is a pretty mild word. Something like “apostates” would be more fitting for some of them. Call a spade a spade!

 

[Fink]

here are some of the reasons IMO.

Fear, ignorance of canon law, unbelief that they are wrong, fear of being called judgmental.

LOOK at Bishops who will NOT take a stand on NOT permitting Holy Communion to these same politicians. Many DO [THANK GOD! ] BUT many do not

God Bless,
Pat

Asked this question a few weeks back; but no one bit:

In some cases, is there too much social interaction between Church leaders and politicians et al? Its pretty hard to publicly condemn someones actions when you and he are on friendly terms, or even just part of the same civic function crowd.
Or do bishops stay right away from that sort of thing?

CMatt25: (#26)
Youre right. For some reason, i thought you were referring to politicians only. In any case, "termites" is pretty mild. Something like "apostates" would be more apt for some of em. Call a spade a spade!
That post was made at 1:22 am our time; and the (mental) fog had settled.

 

[TimothyH]

You show an overly naive impression of what the Scriptures teach. Of course we are all sinners, there’s no question about that. As a previous poster mentioned a faithful Catholic who is honestly following the Lord’s teachings will do everything possible to be a light to the world and salt to the Earth. Do you really think that Andrew Cuomo is attempting to do the same? He represents everything that God finds abominable with the world.

Jesus said we would know the wolves by their fruits (Matthew 7:16). How on Earth can we tell who the false teachers are? Well, by judging! Jesus said to judge with a righteous judgement (John 7:24). There is nothing hypocritical about excommunicating Andrew Cuomo for his anti-biblical, anti-Church stance on homosexuality. That’s what the Church is for! Otherwise, he is going to lead many faithful Catholics astray.

The Bible is replete with commands to have nothing to do with those who don’t follow Christ’s / the Church’s teachings:

Let’s look a Biblical example:

Paul is seriously mad because the Corinthians are associating with someone who claims to be a brother yet is living a sexually immoral life (or is greedy, an idolator, slanderer, drunkard, or swindler. Look at the very last verse:

With such a man do not even eat.

If you are willing to share the Lord’s banquet with someone who Paul would forbid, then you need to readdress your priorities.

I assure you that I am far from naive. But your question about what I think about some politician seems to be an attempt to get me to judge another. I will not do it. It is not my place to do so.

"Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but underneath are ravenous wolves. By their fruits you will know them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? (Matthew 7:16-17)
Jesus words about wolves in sheeps clothing was a reference to false prophets, not about us judging others. Verse 1 of that same Chapter says “Stop judging that you may not be judged.” It doesn’t get clearer than that.

***If a man can receive circumcision on a sabbath so that the law of Moses may not be broken, are you angry with me because I made a whole person well on a sabbath? Stop judging by appearances, but judge justly." *(John 7:23-24)

Jesus words about judging justly were spoken to those who were misjuding himbased on their faulty belief that slavish adherance to the mosaic law would bring them salvation.

1 Corinthians 5 does indeed warn us to be careful about whom we associate with and tells us to purge evil from our midst. But when I look in the mirror and look at God, I find that I am more like the Corinthains than like Paul who was is a saint.

The Bible I read tells me to obey the Church, not to try to play God or be the Pope, and that if I am ready cast another into Hell, then I had better be prepared for that same fate myself. And in that regard, I think I have my priorities right.

-Tim-

 

[PenitentGrace]

If we worried half as much about our own sins and made half as much effort to live a life of virtue as we spent time and effort worrying and complainng about the sins of others, we would be a church full of saints and no secular politician would be able to stand up to us.

-Tim-

I really love this point. It reminds me of the Priest who is helping me return to the Church. I have known him since I lost my faith as a teenager. It was a very dark time. Part of the reason I lost my faith was the extremely unloving attitude of other religious people I knew at the time (I was of course generalizing when I came to the conclusion that most religious people were judgmental and hypocritical- but like I said, I was very young and hurting.) But I was always inspired by this Priest because he was so incredibly HUMBLE. Not that he condones sin or dissension- not at all. In fact, there are things I still am struggling to accept about Church teaching. It’s not like he is going to condone this. He definitely challenges me. BUT he does it with such love and in such a non judgmental way. I am sure I deserve to be called out severely instead of guided in such a wonderful way. But because he is so humble and caring of others- it makes me want to return to the faith even more- because I think, “He is the best person I know- and he believes this. Maybe I should believe this too.”

 

[Rogare]

I assure you that I am far from naive. But your question about what I think about some politician seems to be an attempt to get me to judge another. I will not do it. It is not my place to do so.

"Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but underneath are ravenous wolves. By their fruits you will know them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? (Matthew 7:16-17)
Jesus words about wolves in sheeps clothing was a reference to false prophets, not about us judging others. Verse 1 of that same Chapter says “Stop judging that you may not be judged.” It doesn’t get clearer than that.

Tell me, how on Earth could you evaluate the fruits of a false prophet without judging? How could you evaluate the fruits of a false believer without judging? And you’re wrong, Matthew 7:1 gets much clearer:

For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

“Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye. (Matthew 7:2-5)

Jesus is forbidding only hypocritical judging! So, to be consistent with the context, if the bishop that hypothetically excommunicated Cuomo for his stance on homosexuality had the same stance on homosexuality, that would be hypocritical judging. Please evaluate the context rather than burying your head in the sand.

***If a man can receive circumcision on a sabbath so that the law of Moses may not be broken, are you angry with me because I made a whole person well on a sabbath? Stop judging by appearances, but judge justly." ***(John 7:23-24)

Jesus words about judging justly were spoken to those who were misjuding himbased on their faulty belief that slavish adherance to the mosaic law would bring them salvation.

So then judging justly isn’t to be done?

1 Corinthians 5 does indeed warn us to be careful about whom we associate with and tells us to purge evil from our midst. But when I look in the mirror and look at God, I find that I am more like the Corinthains than like Paul who was is a saint.

So then you agree that you disagree with Paul? You also agree that you would gladly eat with someone that Paul would not? If you’re comfortable with that position, then have at it.

I’ll admit I’m a terrible sinner, we all are. However, I am not publicly blaspheming Christ like Cuomo is. There is obviously an enormous difference between a devout Catholic who sins from time to time and one who claims to be Catholic and is publicly standing against what the Church teaches. If you can’t see the difference then I pray that God will provide you with some common sense.

The Bible I read tells me to obey the Church, not to try to play God or be the Pope, and that if I am ready cast another into Hell, then I had better be prepared for that same fate myself. And in that regard, I think I have my priorities right.

-Tim-

One doesn’t have to play God or be the Pope to understand Paul’s words and the necessity of church discipline.

 

[CMatt25]

CMatt25: (#26)
Youre right. For some reason, i thought you were referring to politicians only. In any case, "termites" is pretty mild. Something like "apostates" would be more apt for some of em. Call a spade a spade!
That post was made at 1:22 am our time; and the (mental) fog had settled.

Fink, I guess you can call 'em whatever you want. But anyone who believes calling a human being a termite is charitable, must have a different definition of charity and the Golden Rule than I do. Peace.

 

[TimothyH]

For the sake of peace, mostly my own, I generally stay out of threads that go over 20 posts, 40 max, as they tend to degenerate into a few people who accuse each other of not answering their question. I’m so glad that hasn’t happened here but am respectfully bowing out of this thread anyway.

I’ve made my point about humility. Maybe it comes from reading Thomas Kempis too much.

The Church is correct to be very cautious about cutting anyone off from the life blood of Christ in his sacraments, either temporarily or permanently. We are right to be cautious too, for the measure with which you measure will be measured out to you (Matthew 7:2) and “Let the one among you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her” (John 8:8)

I urge everyone to be very cautious before we start pointing fingers at people whom God has not placed us in a position of authority over. I urge everyone to know their place in God’s kingdom.

PAX

-Tim-

 

[Tony888]

For the sake of peace, mostly my own, I generally stay out of threads that go over 20 posts, 40 max, as they tend to degenerate into a few people who accuse each other of not answering their question. I’m so glad that hasn’t happened here but am respectfully bowing out of this thread anyway.

I’ve made my point about humility. Maybe it comes from reading Thomas Kempis too much.

The Church is correct to be very cautious about cutting anyone off from the life blood of Christ in his sacraments, either temporarily or permanently. We are right to be cautious too, for the measure with which you measure will be measured out to you (Matthew 7:2) and “Let the one among you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her” (John 8:8)

I urge everyone to be very cautious before we start pointing fingers at people whom God has not placed us in a position of authority over. I urge everyone to know their place in God’s kingdom.

PAX

-Tim-

Tim, you make a good argument for not taking too severe of action. I’ll equate it to giving the death penalty to a criminal.

But what is the middle ground, what are the consequences when one crosses a hard boundary.

In a sense, the Church is a parent raising children to be adults.
Boundaries and consequences are essential to give direction to those still learning.
Tolerating any behavior does not teach right behavior.
Do you argue that a parent cannot teach their child because they made the same mistakes when they were young?
es that

 

[xzereus]

For those who believe that these people should be excommunicated:

As Catholics, we believe that we should follow Church authority. As a matter of fact, that is exactly what this discussion is about - people who aren’t following Church authority.

With this in mind, when did the idea enter our minds that we should guide the Church in guiding us? If I’m not mistaken, the Church HAS NOT excommunicated these people. Should we, then, instruct the Church on how to properly instruct and discipline us?

I’m not saying I’m against excommunication, but I am saying I’m against people taking a stance and calling for action that clearly isn’t the action the Church finds best. I hope this post isn’t misinterpreted or used to start an entirely new argument.

 

[Fink]

Fink, I guess you can call 'em whatever you want. But anyone who believes calling a human being a termite is charitable, must have a different definition of charity and the Golden Rule than I do. Peace.

You can say that again!

Saint Anthony of Padua is known as “The Hammer of Heretics”; but he was gentle with ordinary folks who had gone astray.
The ones he got stuck into were “higher ups”. During one of his sermons, he noticed a wordly Archbishop; and he called him out, in public: “You there with the mitre!” The Archbishop later asked Anthony to hear his confession… The frontal assault worked.

What exactly do you have against calling the Truth the Truth: calling a spade a spade? Some people have to be hit with a 4 x 2, otherwise they refuse to take any notice. The preferred, nice, gentle approach can go only so far. It doesnt work with the thick-hided ones. Some people have been in sin and corruption for so long, that their spiritual hides are as thick and as tough as Shelobs.

The Catholic Church on this earth is supposed to be The Church Militant: not an undisciplined rabble of “freethinking” mercenaries! Is that what you think the Church should be? To exactly suit each “member`s” tastes?

What happens to an army when discipline collapses, and individuals are free to pillage and rape and…? Is that what were seeing right now? We **ARE** at war; and what we see in the physical realm is just the tip of the iceberg of whats going on in the spiritual realm. Like it or not!

Have you ever considered the possibility that an entity which has existed for almost two thousand years would know more re Faith and Morals than you or i or Cuomo et al would?

 

[CMatt25]

You can say that again!

Saint Anthony of Padua is known as “The Hammer of Heretics”; but he was gentle with ordinary folks who had gone astray.
The ones he got stuck into were “higher ups”. During one of his sermons, he noticed a wordly Archbishop; and he called him out, in public: “You there with the mitre!” The Archbishop later asked Anthony to hear his confession… The frontal assault worked.

What exactly do you have against calling the Truth the Truth: calling a spade a spade? Some people have to be hit with a 4 x 2, otherwise they refuse to take any notice. The preferred, nice, gentle approach can go only so far. It doesnt work with the thick-hided ones. Some people have been in sin and corruption for so long, that their spiritual hides are as thick and as tough as Shelobs.

The Catholic Church on this earth is supposed to be The Church Militant: not an undisciplined rabble of “freethinking” mercenaries! Is that what you think the Church should be? To exactly suit each “member`s” tastes?

What happens to an army when discipline collapses, and individuals are free to pillage and rape and…? Is that what were seeing right now? We **ARE** at war; and what we see in the physical realm is just the tip of the iceberg of whats going on in the spiritual realm. Like it or not!

Have you ever considered the possibility that an entity which has existed for almost two thousand years would know more re Faith and Morals than you or i or Cuomo et al would?

Here’s what I think Fink. More flies might be caught with honey than vinegar. But the “war” as you describe it can be continued. I know Benedict has said something in regards to a smaller but more faithful Church. So perhaps as the war continues, Christ might be finding His Church smaller with those flies still sitting on the fence or hovering around the food, flying off for good. Peace.

 

[Fink]

Here’s what I think Fink. More flies might be caught with honey than vinegar.

Thats true; but, the worst of these bad "Catholics" have had plenty of time to be attracted to the honey. Theyve brought ridicule/contempt/shame/scandal on the Church… They`re like cancer cells. Scripture says to treat them like tax collectors.
For the sake of folks whose Faith is wavering, they should be** PUBLICLY **given the boot.

What do non-Catholics think when they hear the Churchs teachings on these issues; and then these teachings arent enforced on her own (supposed) members? The non-Catholics would call it HYPOCRISY!; and who could blame them?