Where are the GOOD MANNERS at Mass?

[bben15]

I’m thinking they don’t really believe Jesus is present in the church.

I do not think it is that. They may just not know how to be respectful towards Jesus.

 

[MSSheBear]

In my parish people talk before Mass. I find it annoying when they talk during Mass. It isn’t restricted to one particular age group. Before Mass I figure it is just going to happen. Before Daily Mass we talk in whispers, if at all. That is in the chapel with the tabernacle. I don’t know if it is the difference in the people attending or because we simply don’t chat inside the chapel. The whole atmosphere is different.

When I was a Protestant, people talked a lot before the service and after the service. We didn’t see anything wrong with it.

 

[Bergon]

No. Let’s see if I can explain this.

First, I see far better behavior from a wide cross section of people in a wide variety of places than I do directly before, during and directly after Mass. I suspect others here do as well. If anything, one would expect people to be on their absolute best behavior at Mass and not at the opera hall, library, Protestant church, restaurant, office, school, etc. That doesn’t seem to be the case in my experience. Why is that?

Second even if we accept that “society in general” is becoming more coarse (I’m not really sure that’s the case) why would individuals still not have the social grace to employ their best manners at Mass – particularly those that are more mature?

Another thing that comes to mind are the very strict rules (written or not) that most parishes used to adhere to. You simply didn’t talk inside church. Even whispering was verboten for the most part. You went outside. You dressed in your best, etc. Was the lack of good manners a product of rebelling against this long held culture beginning in the late 1960’s/early 1970’s? Something that took hold and grew because people viewed it as fresh and liberating?

I suspect in 1960 the atmosphere in most Catholic churches was considerably more reverent due in part to the good manners of people than in opera halls, libraries, restaurants, offices, schools, etc. of the same period. I don’t think that’s the case today.

Again, I understand why rude behavior has not been rooted-out at so many parishes. That’s due to a lack of leadership. What I don’t understand is how it got started and why so many Catholics seem to act with such an absence of good manners before, during and after Mass even if the pastor and local bishop are not providing strong leadership?

They should be bringing those manners to Mass with them and a love for Jesus Christ should make them want to exercise their good manners.

You are most fortunate if you haven’t noticed the general decline in people’s behaviour in the area of manners, etc. I didn’t say it absolutely was the source of the problem. I suggested it might be a source and I think it is. People are less well mannered and linked to that others, e.g. priests, are less likely to challenge and correct bad manners. It isn’t just seen in churches but everywhere.

 

[Bergon]

Generally speaking, opera does not attract people who are “born free and live free.”

You ask where bad manners comes from? How much time do you have? There are many reasons why manners are disappearing in the United States.

IMO, one of the main reasons is the breakdown of the family, and the lack of a mother and a father who are willing to sacrifice leisure time and patiently train their children to have good manners.

IMO, another reason is the importance in our society placed on the philosophy of “Live Free.” People in the U.S. want to be free to be themselves and do what they want to do when they want to do it. They play loud music, they eat and drink whatever they want (which is one reason we’re all so fat), they stay up too late, they spend money that they don’t have, they drive like NASCAR drivers through their neighborhoods, they voice their opinions and unfriend anyone who disagrees with them.

And above all else, when there are any negatives in their lives, they blame OTHER people or they blame “circumstances outside their control.” It’s always someone else’s fault.

As for older people, keep in mind that many senior citizens were teen and twenties in the 1960s, when the “Do your own thing” philosophy became entrenched in American thinking.

IMO, a lot of people in the U.S. have an “entitlement” or “victim” mentality. They believe that life is hard and other people have treated them badly, and therefore, “I have a right to be happy and do things that make me happy.”

It’s all about the Great Me.

But also, IMO, there are more charitable reasons why older people talk in church. Believe it or not, in this mobile society, we are all more lonely than ever. Many older people spend much of their week alone, never seeing anyone or talking with anyone. It used to be that older people lived in their homes and talked out in their yards, but now, many of the elderly have moved into group homes because their neighborhoods got too dangerous, or they simply couldn’t maintain their properties anymore. Amazingly, a “group” home can be a very lonely place. It’s no wonder that when the older person gets to church and sees their old pals, they are excited and want to connect and talk, talk, talk!

Finally, I think a lot of people just don’t have a clue. I was in a church (playing piano) this weekend where one of the gentlemen was very loud when he chatted with me before Mass. I honestly don’t think he realized it. I tried to smile and nod and not say anything, to try to give him a clue that I would prefer that he tone it down. But he didn’t get it. I think a lot of people in the U.S. have become unskilled in reading social settings, and they tend to just keep talking and acting like they do at home.

 

[Catya]

Perhaps because their hearing is diminished and they think they ARE whispering?

There is some truth to that.

Another thing: today’s younger seniors are baby boomers. They are the generation responsible for the general loosening up of manners, for better or for worse.

 

[Catya]

Oh wait, another-another thing: people have a good and natural iclination for fellowship after Mass. The answer to that is Sunday coffee. At the Ukrainian parish I sometimes attend, the pastor scoots everyone downstairs and locks the door (it’s pretty funny to witness sometimes - he manages to do it without being offensive) so the people do their socializing the the appropriate place.

 

[bben15]

Oh wait, another-another thing: people have a good and natural iclination for fellowship after Mass. The answer to that is Sunday coffee. At the Ukrainian parish I sometimes attend, the pastor scoots everyone downstairs and locks the door (it’s pretty funny to witness sometimes - he manages to do it without being offensive) so the people do their socializing the the appropriate place.

Forced socialization, huh?

 

[englishredrose]

Hmm
Not that Jesus or God or the Holy Spirit isn’t present in the Church because the Holy Trinity is more than present in Church but for myself also very present in all that I do so I for one am no different in Church to out of Church. I don’t talk very different in Church to out of Church because God is all around and it confuses me how people want to be so very different in Church as though God only sees them there and not anywhere else. God sees me where ever I am and I am with God wherever I am and have glimpses of feeling God - in HIS Presence whereever I am so to me it don’t matter whether I am in Church or out of Church and I really don’t understand why we have to be different in Church. I don’t get that at all. I am me. If am having a good day I will natter to the priest and if am having a bad day he knows me enough. He is the only one I really chat to in Church anyway because yeh you get the folk who like to hush others for their own silence as they are only thinking about themselves not about each other. So that one is a little bit of swings and roundabouts I guess. I am able to be ‘me’ with the priest which I am unable to be ‘me’ with others. Just like what are good manners? Good manners to whom. Yourself, to the priest, to God? God sees us 7 days of the week all the time and to turn on good manners when in Church seems fake and false to me and I refuse to go down that route. Though I am fortunate am good manners enough anyway though no doubt someone might sitting in Church judging me for my Manners rather than accepting me as a Christian as we perhaps ought to be doing. If we really are concerned about manners in Church then are we in the right mental place for ‘mass’ ourselves because really it not about us is it but about God, about Jesus and they see us for who we really are and not a put on show because we are in Church

 

[CarolNoel]

Where are the GOOD MANNERS one would expect to find at Mass?

My parents, teachers and mentors spent a great deal of time and effort instilling good manners in my siblings and I. Good manners can routinely be seen exercised in families, schools, restaurants, performing arts venues, at the supermarket, at the office and at many other places one would expect to see the practice good manners.

I don’t see good manners at Mass.

I’m not talking about getting all tied up in knots over specifications from the GIRM, RI and other documents. I’m talking about people acting with good manners based on training they should have learned while growing up.

It doesn’t seem to be age related, although I would have expected it to be. Loud talking before, during and after Mass is probably more common in my parish amongst the elderly than with younger members of the faithful. Walking into the sanctuary and using it as a stage to be seen while chatting with others before Mass is also more common amongst the more mature as well.

I don’t think it’s a matter of the form of the Mass either. I attended a Sunday EF Mass three weeks ago. I asked the person sitting in front of me in a quiet whisper a question about setting my missalette markers. She was kind enough to help me in an even quieter whisper but not until we attracted the wrath of someone sitting 10-20’ away. With fire in his eyes he approached us and gave us a loud, distracting and horribly rude shuuuuuuuuuuuush!

I do think it has something to do with one’s “place” on a parish hierarchy though. Many “permanent” readers, adult servers and EMsHC seem to treat the church and the Mass almost as if it was their own private club.

Why the lack of social grace and plain old manners?

Want to see someone with good manners? Watch someone from another faith (or no faith at all) sitting through their first Mass or attend a Protestant faith service sometime.

Wow did you ever hit the nail on the head. My thoughts exactly.

 

[Pug]

I don’t think it’s a matter of the form of the Mass either. I attended a Sunday EF Mass three weeks ago. I asked the person sitting in front of me in a quiet whisper a question about setting my missalette markers. She was kind enough to help me in an even quieter whisper but not until we attracted the wrath of someone sitting 10-20’ away. With fire in his eyes he approached us and gave us a loud, distracting and horribly rude shuuuuuuuuuuuush!

Manners are dependent things, not absolute. Each of you perceive the other as rude, according to the standard each of you know.

I think it likely that some people who are in groups who talk before an event feel some imperative to talk to the others before the event, lest they be anti-social and rude. Yes, some folks put “before mass” as a special event with its own rules, but there is no reason to figure they are aware of that, especially if their experience is with mega churches.

Also, with the elderly, they are often driven by others to mass at a set time and spend the rest of their day in the home. They are likely grabbing what little socialization that they can.

 

[Brigid34]

I’m another that think that good manners have gone the way of the dinosaur in society in general-even in libraries (librarians talk normally now), restaurants certainly and opera houses etc. The late 60s and 70s have brought this about with another “me” era. I wonder if we’ll ever see quiet, nice dress, or nice manners again?

 

[Urn]

Manners are dependent things, not absolute. Each of you perceive the other as rude, according to the standard each of you know.

I think it likely that some people who are in groups who talk before an event feel some imperative to talk to the others before the event, lest they be anti-social and rude. Yes, some folks put “before mass” as a special event with its own rules, but there is no reason to figure they are aware of that, especially if their experience is with mega churches.

Also, with the elderly, they are often driven by others to mass at a set time and spend the rest of their day in the home. They are likely grabbing what little socialization that they can.

Naw. There was something wrong with that person. He was seriously on edge waiting for what he perceived to be rude. The sicko thing is that he reacted to what he saw (me asking the person for help) and not what he heard (quiet whispers.)

It just goes to show that the lack of exercising good manners in church is certainly not dependent on the form of the Mass.

 

[Urn]

Several have posted excuses for bad manners (changing society, being hard of hearing, wanting to visit, the Protestants talk just as much, etc.) but few have really addressed my question: why the bad manners at Mass and not everywhere else?

I do believe that many parishes and dioceses suffer greatly from a lack of leadership. But why should comporting myself with good manners at Mass be dependent on a strong pastor and not on my formation as a human being? It should not.

I know many, many non-Catholics (some are non-Christian to boot) who would instinctively know how to act at Mass simply because they know it’s a sacred celebration. Not only would they know how to act, they would act properly.

So many are so focused on offering excuses that they never stop to think WHY people act like they so often do at Mass? I don’t think a coarsening society explains it.

 

[Urn]

Generally speaking, opera does not attract people who are “born free and live free.”

You ask where bad manners comes from? How much time do you have? There are many reasons why manners are disappearing in the United States.

IMO, one of the main reasons is the breakdown of the family, and the lack of a mother and a father who are willing to sacrifice leisure time and patiently train their children to have good manners.

IMO, another reason is the importance in our society placed on the philosophy of “Live Free.” People in the U.S. want to be free to be themselves and do what they want to do when they want to do it. They play loud music, they eat and drink whatever they want (which is one reason we’re all so fat), they stay up too late, they spend money that they don’t have, they drive like NASCAR drivers through their neighborhoods, they voice their opinions and unfriend anyone who disagrees with them.

And above all else, when there are any negatives in their lives, they blame OTHER people or they blame “circumstances outside their control.” It’s always someone else’s fault.

As for older people, keep in mind that many senior citizens were teen and twenties in the 1960s, when the “Do your own thing” philosophy became entrenched in American thinking.

IMO, a lot of people in the U.S. have an “entitlement” or “victim” mentality. They believe that life is hard and other people have treated them badly, and therefore, “I have a right to be happy and do things that make me happy.”

It’s all about the Great Me.

But also, IMO, there are more charitable reasons why older people talk in church. Believe it or not, in this mobile society, we are all more lonely than ever. Many older people spend much of their week alone, never seeing anyone or talking with anyone. It used to be that older people lived in their homes and talked out in their yards, but now, many of the elderly have moved into group homes because their neighborhoods got too dangerous, or they simply couldn’t maintain their properties anymore. Amazingly, a “group” home can be a very lonely place. It’s no wonder that when the older person gets to church and sees their old pals, they are excited and want to connect and talk, talk, talk!

Finally, I think a lot of people just don’t have a clue. I was in a church (playing piano) this weekend where one of the gentlemen was very loud when he chatted with me before Mass. I honestly don’t think he realized it. I tried to smile and nod and not say anything, to try to give him a clue that I would prefer that he tone it down. But he didn’t get it. I think a lot of people in the U.S. have become unskilled in reading social settings, and they tend to just keep talking and acting like they do at home.

All of what you offered applies to ALL of society. Yet the often poor manners I experience at Mass seem fairly unique given the importance of the event in which they are exercised. In other words, people usually don’t act with such poor manners while attending important events (whatever they might be) in their own worlds.

 

[Phemie]

Several have posted excuses for bad manners (changing society, being hard of hearing, wanting to visit, the Protestants talk just as much, etc.) but few have really addressed my question: why the bad manners at Mass and not everywhere else?

I don’t agree. i’ve been seeing the same sort of boorish behaviour at the movies and in restaurants.

 

[Urn]

I don’t agree. i’ve been seeing the same sort of boorish behaviour at the movies and in restaurants.

I have not. This is especially true when those in attendance consider the event to be important – be it a meal at a nice restaurant or a Protestant prayer service.

 

[Pug]

It just goes to show that the lack of exercising good manners in church is certainly not dependent on the form of the Mass.

I would be astonished if one couldn’t find what is often called bad manners in either form of the mass. Both forms have *people *attending. In both places someone will go sick and cough all over every inch of the pew, kids will put gum under the pew, someone will take it upon themselves to glare at you for how you have chosen to arrange yourself in the pew (the middle, the end, whichever one it is that irks them), or someone will fail to silence the technology device on their person. Maybe they’ll even double-park in the lot. Accept them as small opportunities for sanctity, if you can. I usually fail, but they tell me a person can do it.

And, yes, I might fail in the case of the loud, glaring shusher. That sort of thing inevitably sticks with me a bit. Even if I don’t blame them, I am still stuck with the memory of their anger.

 

[Pug]

I don’t agree. i’ve been seeing the same sort of boorish behaviour at the movies and in restaurants.

Me too. Nothing specific to mass, other than a failure to see that some want it quiet before mass.

 

[PatriceA]

Sometimes I think that what happens in Catholic churches isn’t about the Catholic Church but a reflection on what is happening in society in general. This topic is a prime example. I don’t think a lack of good manners in Catholic churches is anything to do with catholics. I believe it’s what’s happening in society in general. There is an increasing lack of manners, politeness and courtesy in general. I just think this is spilling over into places of worship.

I too believe this is the cause. Bad manners are just the new “norm” in society in general. Of course its going to happen at Mass as well because people are just plain bad mannered lately.

 

[Gidge]

How would you act in the presence of a King ?

At Mass you’re in the presence of the King of the universe, act accordingly.