Where are the GOOD MANNERS at Mass?

[PatriceA]

How would you act in the presence of a King ?

At Mass you’re in the presence of the King of the universe, act accordingly.

I think “you’re preaching to the choir”. The people that are bad mannered at Mass are not the ones reading this thread.

 

[Gidge]

I think “you’re preaching to the choir”. The people that are bad mannered at Mass are not the ones reading this thread.

I don’t know about that assumption but on balance I’d say you were correct.

 

[Urn]

Me too. Nothing specific to mass, other than a failure to see that some want it quiet before mass.

I don’t agree. While nothing else on this Earth is as important as the Mass, people DO practice better manners at settings/events that are important to them than many Catholics do at the Mass.

I can easily understand why people exhibit far, far better manners at the neighboring Lutheran church than my own Catholic parish. At the very least heir pastors have been very strong leaders for quite a few years and simply wouldn’t tolerate what’s common in many Catholic parishes.

But that doesn’t answer my question. Why should it take a pastor with strong leadership skills to ensure the faithful exhibit good manners at Mass? Bringing good manners to the Mass should be a product of our formations as human beings.

 

[Urn]

I would be astonished if one couldn’t find what is often called bad manners in either form of the mass. Both forms have *people *attending. In both places someone will go sick and cough all over every inch of the pew, kids will put gum under the pew, someone will take it upon themselves to glare at you for how you have chosen to arrange yourself in the pew (the middle, the end, whichever one it is that irks them), or someone will fail to silence the technology device on their person. Maybe they’ll even double-park in the lot. Accept them as small opportunities for sanctity, if you can. I usually fail, but they tell me a person can do it.

And, yes, I might fail in the case of the loud, glaring shusher. That sort of thing inevitably sticks with me a bit. Even if I don’t blame them, I am still stuck with the memory of their anger.

Bad manners at the Mass can take many forms. Walking around with a hateful scowl at Mass and shushing two people who are quietly whispering about that Sunday’s readings is every bit as bad (possibly worse) than people carrying on a conversation inside of a church.

I’m not venting because I am upset at the displays of bad manners. I’m not even curious as to why pastors and bishops allow such behaviors. I’m just curious as to why anyone would act in such a manner at Mass?

 

[Urn]

Let me reveal why I asked the question.

I attended Mass at a parish about 30 miles from where I live. It’s staffed by Franciscans. About 15 minutes before the Mass began, I finished the readings and I could almost feel myself physically prepare for the onslaught I am accustomed to at my home parish and have experienced at many other parishes.

The loud cacophony resonating from the sacristy. People using the sanctuary as a stage/meeting area as they “set up.” Loud conversations. Musicians talking loudly as they “tune up.” The 2-3 loud backslappers wandering around, startling and offending others.

It never happened. It wasn’t a stern/severe atmosphere either. People did talk outside and there was limited whispering inside of the church. The single sacristan setting up was professional, efficient and silent. I attribute this to a very strong pastor, but it made me wonder why people act rudely at Mass when good manners are indeed possible?

 

[fred_conty]

Where are the GOOD MANNERS one would expect to find at Mass?

My parents, teachers and mentors spent a great deal of time and effort instilling good manners in my siblings and I. Good manners can routinely be seen exercised in families, schools, restaurants, performing arts venues, at the supermarket, at the office and at many other places one would expect to see the practice good manners.

I don’t see good manners at Mass.

I’m not talking about getting all tied up in knots over specifications from the GIRM, RI and other documents. I’m talking about people acting with good manners based on training they should have learned while growing up.

It doesn’t seem to be age related, although I would have expected it to be. Loud talking before, during and after Mass is probably more common in my parish amongst the elderly than with younger members of the faithful. Walking into the sanctuary and using it as a stage to be seen while chatting with others before Mass is also more common amongst the more mature as well.

I don’t think it’s a matter of the form of the Mass either. I attended a Sunday EF Mass three weeks ago. I asked the person sitting in front of me in a quiet whisper a question about setting my missalette markers. She was kind enough to help me in an even quieter whisper but not until we attracted the wrath of someone sitting 10-20’ away. With fire in his eyes he approached us and gave us a loud, distracting and horribly rude shuuuuuuuuuuuush!

I do think it has something to do with one’s “place” on a parish hierarchy though. Many “permanent” readers, adult servers and EMsHC seem to treat the church and the Mass almost as if it was their own private club.

Why the lack of social grace and plain old manners?

Want to see someone with good manners? Watch someone from another faith (or no faith at all) sitting through their first Mass or attend a Protestant faith service sometime.

This is what I experienced and saw back in the mid to late 60’s.

The Eucharist was put on the back burner, and christian charity on the front one.
The reservation of the Eucharist was physically put to one side of the church, and in some churches it was put in its own little room out of sight, from its original place of front and center.

The emphasis was on seeing Christ in one’s brother and sister next to you in church. So there arose the shaking of hands during Mass and the greeting of peace to each other. There was a shift in importance from Eucharist to each other.

Since the Eucharist was put physically in a side place in the church or in a seperate room, then this seemed to justify the talking not being irreverant. And in addition this also led to more open talking before and after Mass in church. The private praying before and after Mass sort of just got weaker and weaker as years rolled on. The conversations in church got more accepted and were considered good since this was an act of charity, or kindness, to each other. After all weren’t we a community?

This was not something that just happened over night, but it was the tendency and with time, it was the normal routine.

That is what I saw as it developed into what we now consider disrespect by some who talk in church, but then was considered the right thing.

We also changed our churches to be in the round so the people could be closer to the altar and feel more like a community. Which again emphasised the community view just as the talking did.

Parishoners talked and nothing was ever said against it. It was also in some way linked to ecumenism, that is to be like other churches, and to be closer to our non-catholic brethern so that we could feel as one. Statues also went on the back burner as well as the candles. Many were removed or put to the side to be less conspicuous. Kneelers were removed as well as the communion altar rail. There were a number of churches that underwent a real renovation.

Just some of the things I remember.​

May God bless and keep you. May God’s face shine on you. May God be kind to you and give you peace.

 

[Cat]

How would you act in the presence of a King ?

At Mass you’re in the presence of the King of the universe, act accordingly.

To be very honest, I don’t know how I would act in the presence of a king.

We don’t have a king in the United States.

We have a President that we elect (or someone elects–for the last few elections, I have wondered how many of the votes were cast by non-existent people).

And since the Nixon years (and possibly even before that for history-savvy people), many of us do not respect “the Office of the President” very much. It’s hard for us to trust him (or her, which is a possibility in the next election).

If I were to meet President Obama, I would be polite and not do anything rude in his presence. But I wouldn’t be in awe of him. Quite the opposite. I feel a great deal of resentment and contempt towards him.

So perhaps that’s why we in the U.S. are not awe-filled as we should be when we are in the Presence of the Lord Jesus. We truly don’t know how to act in the presence of a king because we don’t have one, and the Presidents that we have had in the last three decades have done more to earn our contempt than our admiration.

The only king most Americans know is a queen, Queen Elizabeth. At the moment, the English royals are very popular again thanks to Prince William and Princess Kate. But just a few years ago, their popularity had dwindled terribly. And even now, I don’t have the gaga feeling for them that many of the Brits do. To me, they’re just incredibly lucky people (lucky to have been born into the right family).

I guess the gist of my post is, Americans aren’t very good at bowing before kings. Perhaps we ought to stop using that analogy and instead, ask how we would act in front of our favorite entertainers and sports stars, because these people are our “kings and queens.” Elvis–the King! And Michael Jackson–the King of Pop! And Aretha Franklin–the Queen of Soul. Rush Limbaugh–the Great One! etc.

And the answer to that question is…we would be screaming, shouting, and jumping up and down and gasping for air! That’s how I acted when I saw my favorite actor in person for the first time.

But is that an appropriate way for us to act in the Presence of the Lord Jesus? I don’t think so.

So in conclusion, it’s no wonder most Americans don’t have a clue about how to act in the Presence of Jesus. We don’t have any rules and conventions for how to act in the presence of greatness. Sigh.

 

[Urn]

This is what I experienced and saw back in the mid to late 60’s.

The Eucharist was put on the back burner, and christian charity on the front one.
The reservation of the Eucharist was physically put to one side of the church, and in some churches it was put in its own little room out of sight, from its original place of front and center.

The emphasis was on seeing Christ in one’s brother and sister next to you in church. So there arose the shaking of hands during Mass and the greeting of peace to each other. There was a shift in importance from Eucharist to each other.

Since the Eucharist was put physically in a side place in the church or in a seperate room, then this seemed to justify the talking not being irreverant. And in addition this also led to more open talking before and after Mass in church. The private praying before and after Mass sort of just got weaker and weaker as years rolled on. The conversations in church got more accepted and were considered good since this was an act of charity, or kindness, to each other. After all weren’t we a community?

This was not something that just happened over night, but it was the tendency and with time, it was the normal routine.

That is what I saw as it developed into what we now consider disrespect by some who talk in church, but then was considered the right thing.

We also changed our churches to be in the round so the people could be closer to the altar and feel more like a community. Which again emphasised the community view just as the talking did.

Parishoners talked and nothing was ever said against it. It was also in some way linked to ecumenism, that is to be like other churches, and to be closer to our non-catholic brethern so that we could feel as one. Statues also went on the back burner as well as the candles. Many were removed or put to the side to be less conspicuous. Kneelers were removed as well as the communion altar rail. There were a number of churches that underwent a real renovation.

Just some of the things I remember.

You’re still not addressing my point.

I honestly don’t believe that conversations in church before, during and after Mass are considered an “act of charity or kindness” in the eyes of the Catholic Church. Quite the opposite in all actuality. But let’s say they are in some dioceses and parishes.

Even if rude behavior was formally encouraged in some dioceses and parishes, I don’t see how someone would routinely talk before, during and after Mass in church if they had the formation that ALL of us should have independent of our faith, namely good manners.

In essence, it may be allowed but I know better!

 

[YoungTradCath]

I guess the gist of my post is, Americans aren’t very good at bowing before kings. Perhaps we ought to stop using that analogy and instead, ask how we would act in front of our favorite entertainers and sports stars, because these people are our “kings and queens.” Elvis–the King! And Michael Jackson–the King of Pop! And Aretha Franklin–the Queen of Soul. Rush Limbaugh–the Great One! etc.

I have an extremely strong sense of propriety. IMHO, that behavior is not appropriate towards entertainers. I would tolerate being in a crowd of people acting in such a way, but I would never do it. If someone looked at me for it I would be apt to give him the “stank eye.”

 

[fred_conty]

You’re still not addressing my point.

I honestly don’t believe that conversations in church before, during and after Mass are considered an “act of charity or kindness” in the eyes of the Catholic Church. Quite the opposite in all actuality. But let’s say they are in some dioceses and parishes.

Even if rude behavior was formally encouraged in some dioceses and parishes, I don’t see how someone would routinely talk before, during and after Mass in church if they had the formation that ALL of us should have independent of our faith, namely good manners.

In essence, it may be allowed but I know better!

I didn’t intend to address your specific point. I meant to furnish some kind of understanding of why and how it started.

 

[Phemie]

You’re still not addressing my point.

I honestly don’t believe that conversations in church before, during and after Mass are considered an “act of charity or kindness” in the eyes of the Catholic Church. Quite the opposite in all actuality. But let’s say they are in some dioceses and parishes.

Even if rude behavior was formally encouraged in some dioceses and parishes, I don’t see how someone would routinely talk before, during and after Mass in church if they had the formation that ALL of us should have independent of our faith, namely good manners.

In essence, it may be allowed but I know better!

But you are still not accepting the fact that while YOU consider it bad manners most people don’t. Most people I deal with consider it perfectly OK to chat before and after Mass and since priests do it too why should they think it’s rude? It’s considered being welcoming and neighbourly and I know that, in my diocese, that attitude has been actively fostered by various people from the diocesan office.

I know that I have had people in authority tell me that I’m the one who’s wrong and has to rethink my attitude. That church is about community and that I’m not being community minded. Because I date back to the 50s, I have a problem with that but younger people have swallowed that, hook, line and sinker.

 

[Urn]

But you are still not accepting the fact that while YOU consider it bad manners most people don’t. Most people I deal with consider it perfectly OK to chat before and after Mass and since priests do it too why should they think it’s rude? It’s considered being welcoming and neighbourly and I know that, in my diocese, that attitude has been actively fostered by various people from the diocesan office.

I know that I have had people in authority tell me that I’m the one who’s wrong and has to rethink my attitude. That church is about community and that I’m not being community minded. Because I date back to the 50s, I have a problem with that but younger people have swallowed that, hook, line and sinker.

Absolutely not. This goes to the heart of my question.

People should already realize before stepping into a church that carrying on a conversation before, during and after Mass (as just one example) is not good manners. It may well be allowed or even encouraged but it’s wrong not by a mandate of the Church but by the dictates of good manners. They should know this not because the pastor told them, or because of their belief/understanding of the Real Presence reposed in the tabernacle but because good manners dictates how we comport ourselves in sacred/important places.

People should have the formation to discount the sort of advice you were given. That doesn’t mean they should become bitter complainers but it does mean that they shouldn’t scrap their good manners because someone gave them some very questionable advice.

 

[Phemie]

Absolutely not. This goes to the heart of my question.

People should already realize before stepping into a church that carrying on a conversation before, during and after Mass (as just one example) is not good manners. It may well be allowed or even encouraged but it’s wrong not by a mandate of the Church but by the dictates of good manners. They should know this not because the pastor told them, or because of their belief/understanding of the Real Presence reposed in the tabernacle but because good manners dictates how we comport ourselves in sacred/important places.

People should have the formation to discount the sort of advice you were given. That doesn’t mean they should become bitter complainers but it does mean that they shouldn’t scrap their good manners because someone gave them some very questionable advice.

Manners are not something you’re born with, you are taught them. If you’ve never been taught that it’s wrong to chat in church before and after Mass but have, in fact, been taught the opposite, how would you know better??

That said, the absolute worst offenders in my parish are the choir members. They chat loudly before, DURING, and after. And in case someone thinks that DURING is about the music, think again. They are laughing and chatting the entire time, even during the Consecration.

 

[Pug]

People should have the formation to discount the sort of advice you were given.

That’s nice. But many don’t. The best remedy is to strive to provide solid formation to the people who need it, or at least demonstrate a clear model with your own behavior. The later often feels unsatisfyingly useless, but still, there it is. It also can be frustrating when you realize your model misleads others because they lack the information to properly interpret it. (For example, I bow in place of genuflect, etc.)

 

[Urn]

Manners are not something you’re born with, you are taught them. If you’ve never been taught that it’s wrong to chat in church before and after Mass but have, in fact, been taught the opposite, how would you know better??

That said, the absolute worst offenders in my parish are the choir members. They chat loudly before, DURING, and after. And in case someone thinks that DURING is about the music, think again. They are laughing and chatting the entire time, even during the Consecration.

I think the vast majority of people who attend Mass have developed manners enough not to act rudely at Mass. Let them face something serious – a day in court, a job interview, a meeting with their school principal, a performance review, a presentation in front of the boss or a teacher, etc. and they’ll mysteriously exhibit great manners. My question is why don’t they exercise them at Mass? Let me give some examples.

At my parish the cacophony resonating from the sacristy through the doors leading into the sanctuary is downright ugly. It cannot be explained away. Why would anyone treat a sacristy as if it was a carnival? Let’s move past that though. Why can’t they at least keep the doors shut? They have been asked to do so for years. Pastors have requested they keep the doors closed as well (yes, I know). People from the nave have taken the initiative and closed them yet they still keep the doors open. Almost in defiance of good manners. What’s that all about? It’s COMMON COURTESY to keep the doors closed. Why don’t they? Where are the manners?

The cantor/guitarist at my parish “tunes-up” inside the church during the 5 minutes leading to Mass (even though pianists/organists often do so in our parish hall.) Why on Earth would anyone do that? It’s astoundingly rude. Worse yet though, he continues to tune up DURING the Mass. This guy is a college professor. He should have the formation not to be so rude yet he acts in a manner that is unfathomable to me.

I’m sure we could all prepare long laundry lists of similar behavior. That’s not my intention though. I’m just curious as to why so many act so rudely inside of Catholic churches at the Mass?

 

[Urn]

That’s nice. But many don’t. The best remedy is to strive to provide solid formation to the people who need it, or at least demonstrate a clear model with your own behavior. The later often feels unsatisfyingly useless, but still, there it is. It also can be frustrating when you realize your model misleads others because they lack the information to properly interpret it. (For example, I bow in place of genuflect, etc.)

Setting a good example is extremely important – and that doesn’t give license for one to act severe or haughty which is every bit as bad as the behavior we have been discussing.

I am very interested in this subject because I think bad manners/rude behavior at Mass has driven a fair number of people away from the Church over the past 40-50 years.

 

[Sarabande]

All of what you offered applies to ALL of society. Yet the often poor manners I experience at Mass seem fairly unique given the importance of the event in which they are exercised. In other words, people usually don’t act with such poor manners while attending important events (whatever they might be) in their own worlds.

Honestly, I see people act with poor manners at other important events. It’s the state of society today. “Formality” and any other word relating to it are bad words. I’m an opera singer and I’ve seen poor behaviour in the opera houses, concert halls, etc. People are always complaining about the poor manners of audience members from talking during the performance, phones going off and people actually taking the call, singing or humming quietly along with the soloist, etc.

I’ve been pretty lucky that at the parishes where I regularly work, the congregations are usually fairly respectful inside the church and most people don’t even leave their until the recessional hymn is done. You’ll see people talk in the vestibule, but I don’t see a problem with that.

 

[Urn]

Honestly, I see people act with poor manners at other important events. It’s the state of society today. “Formality” and any other word relating to it are bad words. I’m an opera singer and I’ve seen poor behaviour in the opera houses, concert halls, etc. People are always complaining about the poor manners of audience members from talking during the performance, phones going off and people actually taking the call, singing or humming quietly along with the soloist, etc.

I’ve been pretty lucky that at the parishes where I regularly work, the congregations are usually fairly respectful inside the church and most people don’t even leave their until the recessional hymn is done. You’ll see people talk in the vestibule, but I don’t see a problem with that.

No, I don’t think so. I see too many older folks whose manners were formed MANY years ago who act terribly at Mass. I also see some far younger people who act with good manners at Mass.

 

[Phemie]

No, I don’t think so. I see too many older folks whose manners were formed MANY years ago who act terribly at Mass. I also see some far younger people who act with good manners at Mass.

You refuse to consider any of the experiences that those of us who have posted have had. Exactly what answer are you looking for?

My experience is that there is rudeness everywhere, movies, concerts, plays (I work in the field of the performing arts and it’s a problem), Mass, restaurants. And it’s pretty much across the board as far as age goes. Polite youngsters will usually have polite parents because the acorn usually doesn’t fall far from the tree. But if their parents have been catechized that church is a moment for socializing then they will pass on that message to their brood.

 

[SMHW]

C

I guess the gist of my post is, Americans aren’t very good at bowing before kings. Perhaps we ought to stop using that analogy and instead, ask how we would act in front of our favorite entertainers and sports stars, because these people are our “kings and queens.” Elvis–the King! And Michael Jackson–the King of Pop! And Aretha Franklin–the Queen of Soul. Rush Limbaugh–the Great One! etc.

And the answer to that question is…we would be screaming, shouting, and jumping up and down and gasping for air! That’s how I acted when I saw my favorite actor in person for the first time.

But is that an appropriate way for us to act in the Presence of the Lord Jesus? I don’t think so.

So in conclusion, it’s no wonder most Americans don’t have a clue about how to act in the Presence of Jesus. We don’t have any rules and conventions for how to act in the presence of greatness. Sigh.

I have an extremely strong sense of propriety. IMHO, that behavior is not appropriate towards entertainers. I would tolerate being in a crowd of people acting in such a way, but I would never do it. If someone looked at me for it I would be apt to give him the “stank eye.”

YoungTradCath, I admire your desire for propriety. But I believe, whether for secular matters or religious matters, that appreciation of propriety is rather unusual. In fact I think that most Americans have a rather disdainful attitude toward propriety.