Where are the humanitarian values within capitalism?

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Without Capitalism there is no economy, no wealth, no charity, and no socialism.
That statement lacks imagination.
Western civilization is going bankrupt because a lack of business liberty.
We are killing the milk cow.
Simplistic statement, with some truth to it. But unbridled unregulated capitalism falls into fiscal collapse on its own. The greed is just too great. And, pure capitalism is without a moral compass whatsoever.
With wealth comes jobs and generosity. Without wealth there is only anarchy as the world is finding out. Economies need rules but politicians should be the partners of business and not the bloodsuckers.
Once again, a partial truth, but with some merit. Generosity does not depend on wealth, and it comes in many forms. It is not true that without wealth, there is only anarchy. Politicians should represent the interests of all of their constituents, including business, in order to find a way to protect and support the welfare of the individual, along with the ability of businesses to make money on a fair playing field. In this world, it is important for politicians to do their best to normalize and protect business interests internationally, as well. Bloodsuckers exist at all levels, from business executives, to politicians, to welfare recipients, unfortunately. And then, there are the honest people in each of these classes.
Some people are learning. Look at the present economies of China, Cuba, and Canada.
All have made pro-business reforms and are recovering their countries wealth.
Each of these examples are highly regulated, and would not dream of unregulated capitalism.
 
I’m thinking industrial capitalism is like some horrible cancer on society that cropped over the past 2 centuries, growing more and more harmful, with the totalitarian-type, industrial communism arising some 100 years ago as a cancer on the capitalism cancer – supposedly born as a corrective to capitalism but going to a very unhealthy extreme, and also very harmful, as capitalism is, to God’s creation and life on planet earth.

For me, Christianity is the only way. It tends to promote generalized reciprocity, as practiced for 99% of our human history (before civilizations arose), also known as “primitive communism” and found in convents and monstaries. In other words, “caring and sharing.” To the extent that a society follows that kind of economy (understanding that some level of ownership and “free market” commerce is essential in our large-scale societies of today, as long as it doesn’t jeopardize and is in the service of life and well-being), it is humanitarian, with our present forms of capitialism as practiced in the U.S., and communism, as practiced in Soviet Russia, being the antithesis of a Christian way of life.

I think if we really want a Christian way of life and economy, we really need to study the Gospels very closely and engage in a lot of prayer.
 
I’m thinking industrial capitalism is like some horrible cancer on society that cropped over the past 2 centuries, growing more and more harmful, with the totalitarian-type, industrial communism arising some 100 years ago as a cancer on the capitalism cancer – supposedly born as a corrective to capitalism but going to a very unhealthy extreme, and also very harmful, as capitalism is, to God’s creation and life on planet earth.

For me, Christianity is the only way. It tends to promote generalized reciprocity, as practiced for 99% of our human history (before civilizations arose), also known as “primitive communism” and found in convents and monstaries. In other words, “caring and sharing.” To the extent that a society follows that kind of economy (understanding that some level of ownership and “free market” commerce is essential in our large-scale societies of today, as long as it doesn’t jeopardize and is in the service of life and well-being), it is humanitarian, with our present forms of capitialism as practiced in the U.S., and communism, as practiced in Soviet Russia, being the antithesis of a Christian way of life.

I think if we really want a Christian way of life and economy, we really need to study the Gospels very closely and engage in a lot of prayer.
Would life without electricity, automobiles, trains, aircraft, refrigeration, medicine… and so on… be preferable to you? Without the profit motive, it’s not likely that any of these things would have been developed. It’s possible that we would still be living under feudal conditions. Would you be OK with a life expectancy of 40 years, or so? How about an infant and childhood mortality rate of 60% or higher?
 
I’m thinking industrial capitalism is like some horrible cancer on society that cropped over the past 2 centuries, growing more and more harmful, with the totalitarian-type, industrial communism arising some 100 years ago as a cancer on the capitalism cancer – supposedly born as a corrective to capitalism but going to a very unhealthy extreme, and also very harmful, as capitalism is, to God’s creation and life on planet earth.

For me, Christianity is the only way. It tends to promote generalized reciprocity, as practiced for 99% of our human history (before civilizations arose), also known as “primitive communism” and found in convents and monstaries. In other words, “caring and sharing.” To the extent that a society follows that kind of economy (understanding that some level of ownership and “free market” commerce is essential in our large-scale societies of today, as long as it doesn’t jeopardize and is in the service of life and well-being), it is humanitarian, with our present forms of capitialism as practiced in the U.S., and communism, as practiced in Soviet Russia, being the antithesis of a Christian way of life.

I think if we really want a Christian way of life and economy, we really need to study the Gospels very closely and engage in a lot of prayer.
The belief that the early Christians may have practiced Communism is based on two passages, correct?
Code:
"And all that believed were together, and had all things in common; and sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men as every man had need." - Acts 2:44-45

"And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul; neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common." - Acts 4:32
 
Would life without electricity, automobiles, trains, aircraft, refrigeration, medicine… and so on… be preferable to you? Without the profit motive, it’s not likely that any of these things would have been developed. It’s possible that we would still be living under feudal conditions. Would you be OK with a life expectancy of 40 years, or so? How about an infant and childhood mortality rate of 60% or higher?
Our life expectancy was mainly enhanced by a very few things: better nutrition, sanitation (based on the germ theory, which microscopes allowed), and a few medical advancements, such as antibiotics.

However, as I mentioned an economy (not to be confused with subsistence patterns such as hunting/gathering, agriculture, and industrialization) should be in the service of people, of promoting life and well-being, not in harming it. “Economy” refers to how we share or do not share our wealth – ownership/tenure patterns, production & division of labor, and modes of exchange, from generalized reciprocity of early tribal societies (“primitive communism”) to market economies to a global market economy.

When Latin American peasants are strong armed off their subsistence farms (where they lived poor, but relatively healthy lives) into utter poverty, disease and early death so that multinational agbiz can grow soy to feed to chickens for export to rich countries, so that the rich can die of heart-attacks from over-consumption – something is wrong with that picture. It also strikes me as not so nice that rich people who pay less % in tax than their maids and secretaries would spend $100,000 on surgery for a pet, when there are people whom their companies have harmed left to die early deaths without adequate medical help. There is just something wrong with a lot of the pictures of our global capitalistic economy as it exists today, as BXVI points out in “Caritas et Veritate.”

As for the industrial way of life – it has brought us lots of comforts and pleasures, and I’m not a ludite saying we should go back to the caves. There just aren’t enough caves for us all (and they are unhealthy with bad air circulation – except for the “cave (earth-covered) homes” I read about in the 70s).

However, we should also vigorously address industrialization’s downside and problems, instead of ignoring them and insisting on living high on the wasteful hog of inefficiency and profligacy, staying totally addicted to fossil fuels, and living well within what economists call the “production possibilities frontier.” I think it would be wise – if we value life and God’s creation to materially sustains us, others around the world, and our progeny well into the future – to become energy/resource efficient/conservative and go on alt energy when feasible.

This can all be done voluntarily at financial savings to people, helping the economy, without lowering our living standards or productivity. However, people either don’t know that, or they are so set in their ways that they refuse to even take baby steps in that direction.

My husband and I have been mitigating climate change since 1990, and have reduced our greenhouse gas emissions (and other concomitant pollution that harms and kills people, and causes miscarriages & birth defects) by over 60% below our 1990 emissions. And that’s not counting having lived within a mile or two of work since the early 70s, out of concern about peak oil and wanting to leave some resources for future generations. With the many $1000s we’ve saved in doing these things, even while increasing our living standards some, we were able to afford a Chevy Volt last year, which we drive 88% of the time on our Green Mountain 100% wind generated electricity. We thought buying the Volt a big non-economical splurge or sacrifice for the sake of the life of the world, but were pleasantly surprised to find out even it is saving us money and will pay for the difference between it and the Ford Taurus we were also considering within 6.5 years, then go on to save us more (it costs about $1.25 in electricity to drive 36 to 44 miles).

Now I understand we would not be able to have wind generate all our electricity and run all our cars. However, employing ALL the various sources of alternative energy that do least harm, PLUS energy/resource efficiency/conservation (that could reduce our demand by over 50% cost-effectively without lowering living standards or productivity), could very greatly reduce human harm and death, and harm to God’s creation.

It’s too late now to undo the many 1000s of years of harms & killing we have set into motion and put in the pipes thru our profligacy to date. Our society should have started down the right path 25 to 35 years ago as the helpful technologies became available. However, we can still reduce our harms. Every life is valuable & where there is life there is hope, and we should never stop striving to do what is right and just.

Mother Teresa said even if our good deeds are very small, if they are done out of love, our love makes them infinite. And once people do tiny things and realize they will not be harmed, they can take courage to do more and more, little by little, to reduce their harm…and be very pleasantly surprised they are not harmed, but even benefitted in the process. And with money saved from these efforts to save lives, we can then have more money for charitable giving 🙂

I’d say “yay” for capitalism and industrialism, if we were headed towards that type of world. Since we are not yet, I have to say “boo.”
 
As long as there is starvation, war, and grief in the world, humanitarianism is not being effective. Also, capitalistic nations tend to be richer, so they can afford some aid. What would it take to end world hunger and get people to fend for themselves?.

I’m bad in economics and politics so I would appreciate it if you could name a few socialist nations that have populations starving to death? Likewise, name some socialistic societies that receive aid from the capitalistic ones? Let us not talk about dictatorships, corruption or war-torn nations.
Oh silly me. Such a shame it is, that capitalistic nations just happen, by some sort of luck or something like that, to have more money. Isn’t that a pitty guys? That for whatever reason, nations that are capitalistic, just by sheer chance, happen to have more wealth than socialist nations? Those poor socialist nations.

Hey Robert, has it yet occurred to you that maybe the reason capitalistic nations have more wealth is because they are capitalistic?
 
Or, do we need a form of socialism to achieve these values?

One argument that I hear is that with capitalism, giving to humanitarian causes is a personal thing, but what happens when nobody gives? Better to ingrain humanitarianism within societies’ system of values.

“One people, one planet, don’t take your brother for granted!”
I consider having a job so I can afford a house and cars humanitarian. I can thank capitalism for that.
 
Oh silly me. Such a shame it is, that capitalistic nations just happen, by some sort of luck or something like that, to have more money. Isn’t that a pitty guys? That for whatever reason, nations that are capitalistic, just by sheer chance, happen to have more wealth than socialist nations? Those poor socialist nations.

Hey Robert, has it yet occurred to you that maybe the reason capitalistic nations have more wealth is because they are capitalistic?
Where does GREED come into play?
 
Where does GREED come into play?
It doesn’t by any necessity. We became the top dog through our own means - we didn’t have to leech off of other nations or peoples in order to become the most efficient and productive nation on earth. It only started going downhill in the early 1900’s because we started moving towards socialist principles and away from God - we began moving towards entitlement and materialism in the same step.
 
Well it seems like one problem we have is a shifting definition of ‘humanitarian’.

The Church teaches that we all have a right…yes a right…to what is needed for our nature.

Our nature requires very few essentials. But it does require some things.

Today, the government is paying for food, shelter, medical insurance, dental insurance in some cases, medicine, heat, air conditioning, coupons for mass transit (or is even providing free transportation for some people), cable tv, land line phones, birth control, abortions, cell phones, housing allowances…then there is rent control, minimum wage laws etc. …that work up in the other direction.

And don’t dare ask for basic work in return…well that amounts to forced labor…veritable slavery.

No liberal person will draw a line and say “these basics…but no more”…it’s free stuff for 49% of the people, no income taxes and loads of allowances, credits, freebies, funded through things like the universal service fees…etc. etc.

And frankly from a moral standpoint…it’s immoral not to require what a person CAN do as a form of justice…it’s also immoral because handouts don’t develop the person…it’s this lack of commensurate development of the person that is the real unmentioned moral problem with our current out-of-control entitlement system.
 
Karl Marx was an individual who believed that salvation could be realized without God. Is that where we’re headed, towards Marx’s Godless society? I think a better question might be, Where are the spiritual values within socialism?
 
Karl Marx was an individual who believed that salvation could be realized without God. Is that where we’re headed, towards Marx’s Godless society? I think a better question might be, Where are the spiritual values within socialism?
Great question…that’s THE question to ask.
 
ENCYCLICAL LETTER
SPE SALVI
OF THE SUPREME PONTIFF
BENEDICT XVI
TO THE BISHOPS
PRIESTS AND DEACONS
MEN AND WOMEN RELIGIOUS
AND ALL THE LAY FAITHFUL
ON CHRISTIAN HOPE

The transformation of Christian faith-hope in the modern age
  1. Together with the victory of the revolution, though, Marx’s fundamental error also became evident. He showed precisely how to overthrow the existing order, but he did not say how matters should proceed thereafter. He simply presumed that with the expropriation of the ruling class, with the fall of political power and the socialization of means of production, the new Jerusalem would be realized. Then, indeed, all contradictions would be resolved, man and the world would finally sort themselves out. Then everything would be able to proceed by itself along the right path, because everything would belong to everyone and all would desire the best for one another. Thus, having accomplished the revolution, Lenin must have realized that the writings of the master gave no indication as to how to proceed. True, Marx had spoken of the interim phase of the dictatorship of the proletariat as a necessity which in time would automatically become redundant. This “intermediate phase” we know all too well, and we also know how it then developed, not ushering in a perfect world, but leaving behind a trail of appalling destruction. Marx not only omitted to work out how this new world would be organized—which should, of course, have been unnecessary. His silence on this matter follows logically from his chosen approach. His error lay deeper. He forgot that man always remains man. He forgot man and he forgot man’s freedom. He forgot that freedom always remains also freedom for evil. He thought that once the economy had been put right, everything would automatically be put right. His real error is materialism: man, in fact, is not merely the product of economic conditions, and it is not possible to redeem him purely from the outside by creating a favourable economic environment.
 
There are absolutely NO humanitarian values within pure capitalism. To the extent that a capitalistic society is socialistic/democratic (which is not very much for the U.S.) does that country have humanitarian values, and people of that country are also humanitarians for supporting such a helpful (not harmful) government. Our less helpful gov here in the U.S. is a reflection of how mean-spirited we Americans are – despite copious graces bestowed on us. It’s no wonder that our health system rates below that of Costa Rica, and way below those of developed societies, such as those of Europe.
One might not be too trusting of sources claiming how our health system rates below this country or that. Countries are not all the same in composition, not all measure expenditures in the same way and not all measure results in the same way. As just two examples, if you look up “MRIs per capita”, you will find that the U.S. employs more than all but one country in the world, and greatly more than most European countries. If you look up “infant mortality” and really research it, you will find that there are very big differences in the way it is counted in different countries. The U.S. tends to have higher “infant mortality” rates because of the way it counts “live births”. It’s very different from the way many other countries count them. As another, one cannot go by “life expectancy” in judging a medical system, both because of the “live birth” discrepancy and because the older a population is, the longer the average life span is, statistically. (An 80-year-old has a much greater chance of reaching 81 than does a child of 10 because the child has many more years of risk ahead of him than does the 80 year old in attempting to reach 81)

But getting to the question of “pure capitalism”. Probably “pure capitalism” hasn’t really existed since the stone age. One can pick this example or that of later capitalism and one always finds the heavy hand of government in it…picking winners and losers. England in the Industrial Revolution is often cited as an era of “pure capitalism”, but it certainly wasn’t. The Crown and the nobility picked winners and losers. It was precisely this kind of interference that motivated many in the American Revolution.

Not that I favor “pure capitalism”. One can favor the rule of law, which I do, and which protects people a lot more than many think. One can include within the “rule of law” many, if not most, regulatory actions. The rule of law is, ideally, the expression of the peoples’ conception of fairness and justice, with a massively heavier Judeo-Christian foundational basis than most suspect. And, in the English legal system upon which ours is based, it is all supposed to be kept consistent internally and over time.

But it’s when the government starts deciding who will succeed and who will fail that I become as suspicious as my peasant ancestors. There is a great deal of that going on at present, and to those of us who recognize it, the question must be asked: “For what reason do those in power do that?” Unfortunately, one has to recognize that a great deal of it is for the enhancement of their own wealth and power. Yes, they so often do it in the name of “the poor” or “the middle class” or “working people” or whatever, but it seems the more intrusive and the more strident the government gets about such ostensible motivations, the worse “the poor”, “the middle class” or “working people” actually fare.

St. Thomas Aquinas said something that struck a chord with me. He said the “fair price” for everything, including labor, is the price at which I value the thing I give less than the thing I receive in the exchange. Now, that’s capitalism at its purest. But since people are sinful, and since people have recognized that fact for eons, people have devised rules constraining sinful actions in exchange. And that’s what we call “the law”.

When, however, we start putting our trust in “leaders”, particularly those who constantly play on our emotions , sometimes our very worst emotions like greed, envy, resentment or just plain hatred, and particularly when such “leaders” suggest to us that scarce resources of the earth are not scarce, they’re just in the hands of somebody else less deserving than ourselves, we are empowering them to oppress not only those we envy or resent, but us as well.
 
One might not be too trusting of sources claiming how our health system rates below this country or that.
Try 49 million people uninsured, plus at least that many people under-insured. Try no health care coverage if you are unemployed and therefore unable to pay expensive premiums, when your unemployment is the result of illness.

Those seem like persuasive ways to rate a healthcare system. Does it provide medical care to everyone who needs care? Unfortunately, the US system is based on other priorities, at this time. It was not always so. Many of the best ideas of the Obamacare proposal where killed, because the healthcare insurance companies were allowed to write the bill. It should not surprise anyone that the chairperson of the committee, Senator Clinton, received the largest amount of money from healthcare of anyone in the Senate that year.
 
Try 49 million people uninsured, plus at least that many people under-insured. Try no health care coverage if you are unemployed and therefore unable to pay expensive premiums, when your unemployment is the result of illness.

Those seem like persuasive ways to rate a healthcare system. Does it provide medical care to everyone who needs care? Unfortunately, the US system is based on other priorities, at this time. It was not always so. Many of the best ideas of the Obamacare proposal where killed, because the healthcare insurance companies were allowed to write the bill. It should not surprise anyone that the chairperson of the committee, Senator Clinton, received the largest amount of money from healthcare of anyone in the Senate that year.
Yes, we have heard all of that.

And what does “under-insured” mean? No abortion coverage perhaps? To qualify for ERISA deductibility, (which essentially all employment-based policies are) they had to be state-approved plans that also followed federal requirements. And Obamacare mandates that employment-based policies be (mirabile dictu) state-approved plans that also follow federal requirements.

But nobody challenges the studies done prior to Obamacare’s passage, indicating that approximately 80% had coverage and were reasonably happy with it. Now, 20% of Americans would be about 60 million. Nobody really knew how many of those people were “between plans”. At “full employment” about 5% of working age people are “in transition” from one job to another. So, who were the other 15% or so? Well, we’re assured that some were young people who just didn’t want to pay for it. Some were illegal aliens. (That would be what? 10 million at least and perhaps as many as 20 million?) Some totally unknown number were those who would have qualified for Medicaid but didn’t bother because you can apply for it retroactively. Undoubtedly some were people who just couldn’t get insurance or qualify for Medicaid, either one. Regardless, nobody really knows why those with no coverage didn’t have it. It was just guesswork. And upon that guesswork, the Democrats imposed a program that the majority of the populace did not want, and that virtually none of the legislators understood or had even read.

Obama admits that 20 million still won’t be covered. The CBO says 30 million. One could not be faulted too much for imagining that those numbers are conservative as people find out what Obamacare is, and find ways to not be a part of it.

There has already been a dropoff in people with “child only” policies because the Obamacare mandates made them too expensive. 20 states have declined to set up exchanges. Obama excepted unions from Obamacare’s “Cadillac tax” provisions. Nancy Pelosi has arranged exemptions for a number of her constitutents and can anyone be sure those are the last? Employers are going to part-time work in order to avoid the higher cost of obamacare coverage.

So, most likely there will be 10% or more of the population that still has no coverage. And to get there, Medicare got looted so intensely that the chief actuary for Medicare says Medicare will pay less than Medicaid fairly soon, meaning of course that it will be nearly worthless coverage. In addition, Obamacare dumps 17 million more people into Medicaid without funding and further squeezing the truly poor out of the limited numbers providers will take.

And we’re already finding out that Obamacare, far from saving money as claimed, has caused premiums to go up substantially because of all the mandates. And, of course, it requires violation of conscience for Catholics and many others.

An utter, absolute political victory for Obama, Pelosi and Reid, and a total failure from the perspective of the American people.
 
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