Where can I find the Mormon teaching on Africans being fallen Angels?

[twopekinguys]

Let’s see…we have had 16 presidents in less than 180 years, and unlike you guys, the black membership of the church was participating fully by 150 years from the beginning. We will, almost certainly, have a black prophet before the end of this century if not sooner. Given the average, here…lessee…we change presidents about every 11 years, on average…which means that we will have ten presidents or so in the 21st century. If we have a black president before the end of this century, that would be one out of 27, which means…oh, yeah. just one black president for us will increase our percentage of black leaders over yours by three times.

Lets see here, the first black pope, St Victor I (ca186-198), wow, you beat us by 30 years…whoopeee!!!

…and 400 years after the coming of the Catholics to America, and 1500 or so years after the founding of Catholicism…not a really good comparison on your part.

Talk about moving the goal posts. Boy I hope you use quick drying cement on those puppies. If you want to talk about from when mormons and Catholics came to America. Then your record is far worse considering the nephites and lamanites now isn’t it?

Yes, I am very aware of Father Tolten’s history–including the fact that the reason he had to go to Rome for his training is because the Catholic priests in America would not allow blacks to attend seminary here.

I am? At least I am comparing the length of time from the founding of both faiths. Since when does Catholicism count ANYTHING that it, a world wide church that is run from the Vatican, from the founding of the USA?

There you go, moving those darn goal posts again. Now you are stating from the founding of both churches. Earlier it was about America. You seem to be having trouble with staying on one continent. Pick one, any one, put your goal post there, and leave it for more than 5 minutes. The mormon church is run from slc, what’s your point?

Oh, come on. the leadership of the Catholic Church is determined by votes and by politics

Yes, the Pope is chosen by a vote. Just like when the Apostles replaced Judas. Which is evidently the method the Holy Spirit guided the Apostles to use. If you call praying for divine guidance politics, then so be it. But then again, look how many of your apostles offsprings have made it into the first presidency and quorums. You sure you want to talk about politics?

 

[RebeccaJ]

Let’s see…we have had 16 presidents in less than 180 years, and unlike you guys, the black membership of the church was participating fully by 150 years from the beginning. We will, almost certainly, have a black prophet before the end of this century if not sooner. Given the average, here…lessee…we change presidents about every 11 years, on average…which means that we will have ten presidents or so in the 21st century. If we have a black president before the end of this century, that would be one out of 27, which means…oh, yeah. just one black president for us will increase our percentage of black leaders over yours by three times.

This is very far reaching and doesn’t take into account all of history. The Catholic Church is more than the Latin rite. Historically the African churches have been Eastern churches. Many clergy were ordained in Africa. Then, two things hit. First, the conquering of North Africa by Islam. And second, the schism. These two things essentially made what you are looking at, the Latin Rite, as demographically Western European.

Catholic missions were not able to return to Africa until the 15th century. In the meantime, the Orthodox churches survived here and there. All with Holy Orders that are fully recognized as valid by Rome. ie, no one in Rome ever stated an ordination in Africa was invalid based on the person actually being African. And no one in Rome ever sent letters to the Orthodox Church requesting they cease the ordination of Africans.

In all this time frame you are talking about, African churches returned to communion with the West. The Coptic Catholic church emerged from a small group (2000) of converts from the Coptic Orthodox church in the 18th century. This included the conversion of several Coptic Orthodox priests who were then Catholic priests, as the West recognizes the validity of Holy Orders in the East.

That there have been few African Catholic Popes has nothing to do with race. Especially before the 1600’s as the idea of race, as we are discussing, did not even exist until then. Certainly slavery did, but it was never racial based, or given religious ideas of legitimacy based on race, by anyone. So any discussion of slavery before this time has absolutely nothing to do with racism. That is a human invention that comes later.

 

[why_me]

Then keep your “elders” at home.

Why should mormons keep their missionaries at home? How do you think catholicism spread across the globe, through word of mouth? Catholic missionaries generally followed the colonialists from Spain, Portugal, France, etc. to convert the pagans.

How do you think Lithuania became catholic? Through choice? They were quite happy being pagan.

 

[hosemonkey]

Why should mormons keep their missionaries at home? How do you think catholicism spread across the globe, through word of mouth? Catholic missionaries generally followed the colonialists from Spain, Portugal, France, etc. to convert the pagans.

How do you think Lithuania became catholic? Through choice? They were quite happy being pagan.

 Quote:From ParkerD

                Of course I haven't convinced you, **nor would I even think of trying to do that. You get to think whatever you want to think--you have the right, and the brain to do your own thinking.**            
                             Then keep your "elders" at home.                                                                                                __________________

Don’t be clueless, WhyMe. Read the post. If we are not to be convinced and if we have brains to do our own thinking, then we don’t need wet-behind-the ears kids to try to blow smoke at us. Keep your “elders” at home and save everyone (including their parents) a lot of time, aggravation and money. The missionaries that Holy Church sent out were missionaries of the True Faith, not emmisaries of some made-in-America cult. They have a ligitimate right, the mormon “church” does not. Also, you need to restrict yourself to mormon comments alone. You are not Catholic.

 

[ParkerD]

Why was there a ban on Blacks holding the Priesthood within the LDS faith to begin with?

I would like a plain answer to the question posed at the top of this post.

Why was there a ban on Blacks holding the Priesthood within the LDS faith to begin with?

KDesiel,
I would assume it is because of Genesis 4:12, 14, 15, 23; Genesis 9:25; and Genesis 24:3, primarily, since those verses are where it appears the assumption was made by whoever started the “servant of servants” idea in the first place. (That wasn’t the Mormons.)

 

[Kdesiel]

Quote:From ParkerD

                Of course I haven't convinced you, **nor would I even think of trying to do that. You get to think whatever you want to think--you have the right, and the brain to do your own thinking.**            
                             Then keep your "elders" at home.                                                                                                __________________

Don’t be clueless, WhyMe. Read the post. If we are not to be convinced and if we have brains to do our own thinking, then we don’t need wet-behind-the ears kids to try to blow smoke at us. Keep your “elders” at home and save everyone (including their parents) a lot of time, aggravation and money. The missionaries that Holy Church sent out were missionaries of the True Faith, not emmisaries of some made-in-America cult. They have a ligitimate right, the mormon “church” does not. Also, you need to restrict yourself to mormon comments alone. You are not Catholic.

I couldn’t agree more.
I put whyme, dianad, and others on the ignore list some time ago, every now and then I take them off just to see what they have to say…I read their posts…and yup right back on the ignore list.

 

[TheosisM]

The first Black Catholic priest was ordained in 1886.

 

[PaulDupre]

That there have been few African Catholic Popes has nothing to do with race. Especially before the 1600’s as the idea of race, as we are discussing, did not even exist until then. Certainly slavery did, but it was never racial based, or given religious ideas of legitimacy based on race, by anyone. So any discussion of slavery before this time has absolutely nothing to do with racism. That is a human invention that comes later.

You’ll never convince Mormons that the concept of race did not exist prior to the 1600s. Joseph Smith’s “scriptures” recount racism and segregation of blacks as far back as the time of Adam.

For behold, the Lord shall curse the land with much heat, and the barrenness thereof shall go forth forever; and there was a blackness came upon all the children of Canaan, that they were despised among all people.

• Moses 7:8, The Pearl of Great Price

And Enoch also beheld the residue of the people which were the sons of Adam; and they were a mixture of all the seed of Adam save it was the seed of Cain, for the seed of Cain were black, and had not place among them.

• Moses 7:22, The Pearl of Great Price

Emphasis mine.

 

[RebeccaJ]

You’ll never convince Mormons that the concept of race did not exist prior to the 1600s. Joseph Smith’s “scriptures” recount racism and segregation of blacks as far back as the time of Adam.

Just more evidence for the source of Mormon “scripture”…Joseph’s 19th century imagination.

Not to mention a confusion between Cain and Canaan. lol.

 

[ParkerD]

Zaffiroborant or anyone else who is a life-long Catholic male:

Before this thread dies away, I might as well learn something more about those who post here as regards the priesthood they hold. How many priesthood blessings have each of you given during your life? Question two: How many have each of you given to one of your own children or to your wife?

Just curious. Thanks.

 

[hosemonkey]

Zaffiroborant or anyone else who is a life-long Catholic male:

Before this thread dies away, I might as well learn something more about those who post here as regards the priesthood they hold. How many priesthood blessings have each of you given during your life? Question two: How many have each of you given to one of your own children or to your wife?

As members of the priesthood of believers, we Catholic fathers and husbands, as heads of our respective families, are given the power to bless and to curse. This is restricted to our respective families however. Simply because mormons “ordain” 12 year old boys as “priests” does not give them any sort of priestly authority, because the mormon “church” possesses no apostolic authority to confer orders on anyone. The Catholic Church alone possesses this authority. Catholic priests are true sacrificing priests with the apostolic authority to not only celebrate Mass, but also to forgive sin in the Name of Christ. mormonism does not and cannot confer these powers and authorities. Therefore mormon “priests”, Apostles etc. have no authority or ligitimacy. Hope this answers your question.

 

[TheosisM]

Zaffiroborant or anyone else who is a life-long Catholic male:

Before this thread dies away, I might as well learn something more about those who post here as regards the priesthood they hold. How many priesthood blessings have each of you given during your life? Question two: How many have each of you given to one of your own children or to your wife?

Just curious. Thanks.

ParkerD,

I am not a parent or married yet, however I will give you the Catholic perspective on this matter:

Catholics believe not only in a ministerial/sacerdotal priesthood, but a “common priesthood of the faithful” as well. Therefore, it is quite common for Catholic parents to bless their children and spouse. Frequently, this is done through prayer and the sprinkling or anointing with holy water (many parishes have a place where you can obtain holy water to take home). My own father did this many times, and I plan on doing that as well with my family (though I am being called to the diaconate, so obviously the scope of who and what deacons (and priests and bishops) can bless is different).

Catholics frequently will use their own words to impart blessings, and there is also a liturgical text called the “Book of Blessings” available for use by all (laity, bishops, priests, and deacons), with specifications as to which types of blessings are appropriate for each priesthood office. The introduction to the Book says this:

“Other laymen and laywomen, in virtue of the universal priesthood, a dignity they possess because of their baptism and confirmation, may celebrate certain blessings, as indicated in the respective orders of blessings, by use of the rites and formularies designated for a lay minister.”

 

[twopekinguys]

Zaffiroborant or anyone else who is a life-long Catholic male:

Before this thread dies away, I might as well learn something more about those who post here as regards the priesthood they hold. How many priesthood blessings have each of you given during your life? Question two: How many have each of you given to one of your own children or to your wife?

Just curious. Thanks.

I give my son, daughter in law, and my grandson a blessing everytime I see them.

 

[twopekinguys]

twopekinguys;5901451:

I assume you mean the first black American

Catholic priest. Africans have been ordained to the Catholic priesthood since the early times of the Church. Then of course there’s the Ethiopian Catholic Church (reunited from the Ethiopian Orthodox Church).

That is correct. I believe in one of my other posts on this, I did say Black American Catholic Priest. At least that was my intention.

 

[twopekinguys]

I couldn’t agree more.
I put whyme, dianad, and others on the ignore list some time ago, every now and then I take them off just to see what they have to say…I read their posts…and yup right back on the ignore list.

I agree, although I haven’t put diana on ignore yet. Sometimes she has good insight, sometimes not. whyme has deservedly earned his place on my ignore list.

 

[RebeccaJ]

“Other laymen and laywomen, in virtue of the universal priesthood, a dignity they possess because of their baptism and confirmation, may celebrate certain blessings, as indicated in the respective orders of blessings, by use of the rites and formularies designated for a lay minister.”

Zaffiroborant or anyone else who is a life-long Catholic male:

Before this thread dies away, I might as well learn something more about those who post here as regards the priesthood they hold. How many priesthood blessings have each of you given during your life? Question two: How many have each of you given to one of your own children or to your wife?

Just curious. Thanks.

A same question ParkerD, for your wife. As all baptized, male and female, share in the High Priesthood of Jesus Christ, we all can bless our families, and ourselves. It is what the fonts with Holy water in a Catholic church are for. Some Catholic families keep a font with Holy water near the front door of their home.

I don’t ask out of sense of one-upmanship. I just want you to realize that all faithful are made worthy of the promises of Christ. Male, female, black or white. This is the Truth that is given to all, through the Love of God.

 

[RebeccaJ]

In other words, this is not a new idea that a mormon all of the sudden found themselves prepared for. It is a teaching of Jesus. It has always been there for you to read, in Sacred Scripture.

 

[zaffiroborant]

A same question ParkerD, for your wife. As all baptized, male and female, share in the High Priesthood of Jesus Christ, we all can bless our families, and ourselves. It is what the fonts with Holy water in a Catholic church are for. Some Catholic families keep a font with Holy water near the front door of their home.

I don’t ask out of sense of one-upmanship. I just want you to realize that all faithful are made worthy of the promises of Christ. Male, female, black or white. This is the Truth that is given to all, through the Love of God.

When I was growing up my mother would bless me and my brothers and sisters after our prayers at bedtime. I find it sad that ParkerD’s wife thinks she lacks authority to do this. This idea that only a “holder of the priesthood” could bless a sick child gets to the heart of why I find the priesthood ban so repugnant. Until 1978 a black man who was chaste, kept the WOW, tithed and otherwise was a model LDS had to ask a white man to bless his own children.

 

[RebeccaJ]

When I was growing up my mother would bless me and my brothers and sisters after our prayers at bedtime. I find it sad that ParkerD’s wife thinks she lacks authority to do this. This idea that only a “holder of the priesthood” could bless a sick child gets to the heart of why I find the priesthood ban so repugnant. Until 1978 a black man who was chaste, kept the WOW, tithed and otherwise was a model LDS had to ask a white man to bless his own children.

All LDS want a “worthy male” in their home. I remember being taught very clearly that the priesthood in my home was special. Essential really. ParkerD understand this, this is why he asked this question to begin with. Maybe he should also ask his wife what she would think about being married to a man who could not hold the mormon priesthood.

 

[ParkerD]

When I was growing up my mother would bless me and my brothers and sisters after our prayers at bedtime. I find it sad that ParkerD’s wife thinks she lacks authority to do this. This idea that only a “holder of the priesthood” could bless a sick child gets to the heart of why I find the priesthood ban so repugnant. Until 1978 a black man who was chaste, kept the WOW, tithed and otherwise was a model LDS had to ask a white man to bless his own children.

Zaffiroborant and TheosisM and Twopekinguys,
Thanks for the insights.

My wife actually does bless our children (I have been very grateful for that), and I would think that in the same way you folks have described, any parent could bless their child and could have before 1978. They have that right and that authority as a parent–any parent, anywhere.

I enjoyed reading about how these blessings are given among you folks.