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Peter_J
Guest
Well said.
Where can Non-Catholics go to find an official document listing all Infallible excathedra states made by various Popes?
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pablope
Guest
But…this is one of the purposes of the teaching authority of the Church, isn’t it? (ie Magisterium)?
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KathleenGee
Guest
Affirm Pablope’s post here regarding the Magesterium.
The teaching Magesterium is not the work of men alone. The teaching Magesterium of the Church is the transmission of faith through the Holy Spirit handed down through the apostles.
It is looking like we are drawing away from the Holy Spirit Who makes us one, and pulling into geographical traditions of different perspectives of drawing on the same reality. When we do this, we are pulling too much into our own regional church, and not maintaining our communion.
In the face of the forthcoming 'Balkanizing nationalism, the rejection of the Magesterium by Protestantism and forthcoming fracture of the apostolic faith, the Holy Spirit guided the Church into declaring the Holy Father infallible – in maintaining the deposit of faith given us by the apostles through the Holy Spirit, and in this vast territory of Christianity, to be the head to keep us together.
Without the Pope, we are fragmented clans at odds with each other.
The teaching Magesterium is not the work of men alone. The teaching Magesterium of the Church is the transmission of faith through the Holy Spirit handed down through the apostles.
It is looking like we are drawing away from the Holy Spirit Who makes us one, and pulling into geographical traditions of different perspectives of drawing on the same reality. When we do this, we are pulling too much into our own regional church, and not maintaining our communion.
In the face of the forthcoming 'Balkanizing nationalism, the rejection of the Magesterium by Protestantism and forthcoming fracture of the apostolic faith, the Holy Spirit guided the Church into declaring the Holy Father infallible – in maintaining the deposit of faith given us by the apostles through the Holy Spirit, and in this vast territory of Christianity, to be the head to keep us together.
Without the Pope, we are fragmented clans at odds with each other.
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KathleenGee
Guest
In regards to contraception, the secular medical field - only 27% of doctors are even enrolled in the American Medical Association – there is a tiny note on contraception that it can cause cancer.
The Pill combined with progesterone and estrogen is proving to be carcinogenic. The Pill removes one link of DNA, and it takes about 10 years for the cancer to be diagnosed. It is a big cover up.
Furthermore, so many children are being born without Christ, without stable loving parents who are intending to give them the gift of life in Our Lord.
Cardinal Manning said in England over 100 years ago, that a culture that has become obsessed with sex – and I would even call it sterile sex for self gratification that does not bear life – just like other modern sexual relationships that do not bear the fruit of life and our future progenity, is a culture that has lost its faith in God…and in life.
Thank God for Pope Pius VI who had the illumination and courage to face the world, and for all his subsequent ridicule by it.
The Pill combined with progesterone and estrogen is proving to be carcinogenic. The Pill removes one link of DNA, and it takes about 10 years for the cancer to be diagnosed. It is a big cover up.
Furthermore, so many children are being born without Christ, without stable loving parents who are intending to give them the gift of life in Our Lord.
Cardinal Manning said in England over 100 years ago, that a culture that has become obsessed with sex – and I would even call it sterile sex for self gratification that does not bear life – just like other modern sexual relationships that do not bear the fruit of life and our future progenity, is a culture that has lost its faith in God…and in life.
Thank God for Pope Pius VI who had the illumination and courage to face the world, and for all his subsequent ridicule by it.
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lodown0820
Guest
I would prefer an answer from the Magisterium on this. At the time of Copernicus, the Pope threatened to defrock him for stating the Sun revolved around the Earth; centuries later when proved that the Sun is the center, it was said that the Pope was only speaking his opinion. As it was meat on fridays and ladies wearing hats in Church. NO, not everything a Pope or Bishop says is infallible. This kind of talk leads to great misunderstandings
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eamonnroma
Guest
Absolutely. The Church has had to modify its position frequently to catch up with science. Look at Creation. We know for scientific fact that the Earth is older than 4000 years old.
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KathleenGee
Guest
In regards to Galileo, the Church had already established format in presenting new hypotheses. Copernicus was still working on establishing his particular work. Galileo had great standing with the ecclesiastics, received much ovation from them for his contributions.
But he jumped steps to present his scientific observations before Copernicus’ completion, and he was corrected for that.
What got Galileo in trouble was that he crossed his scientific jurisdiction, and took on Scripture to make a theological point.
The world claims the Church condemned Galileo for saying the earth was flat, when actually it was regarding him taking a line out of Scripture to make a theological statement that was outside the deposit of faith.
But he jumped steps to present his scientific observations before Copernicus’ completion, and he was corrected for that.
What got Galileo in trouble was that he crossed his scientific jurisdiction, and took on Scripture to make a theological point.
The world claims the Church condemned Galileo for saying the earth was flat, when actually it was regarding him taking a line out of Scripture to make a theological statement that was outside the deposit of faith.
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lodown0820
Guest
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lodown0820
Guest
You did not answer me. Where in my response did I mention Galileo? Where is the response about meat on Fridays and hats? I do believe in infallibility but not everything the Pope say is infallible.
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EphelDuath
Guest
The Church has never taught the Earth is 4,000 years old. Even going back as far as St. Augustine of Hippo, back when the field of geology was so primitive as to be non-existent and nobody knew what carbon dating was, Augustine wrote that we should not take every word of the Bible solely at its literal word, and that God called us to be Christians, not necessarily scientists.
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jmcrae
Guest
Again and again, we need to remember the distinctions between:
Pious practices (eg. Novenas) Nice to do, and good for the soul, but not required.
Customs (eg. Eucharistic Processions on Corpus Christi) - If your parish does this, you should participate; if it does not, don’t get all in a knot over it.
Disciplines (eg. No meat on Fridays; hats; the length of time to fast before Holy Communion; the days set when we ought to fast) The Church has a right to regulate the discipline of the Sacraments; these things are theirs to command, and theirs to change if they see fit to change them, according to the varying and changing needs of each generation.
The moral law (eg. You shall not kill) - Unchanging, and applies to everybody. The Church doesn’t create these laws; God gave them to us, and the Church is explaining them to us. They are “the secret of happiness.”
Doctrine (eg. God is love): Factual information about who Jesus was, and everything related to Him. This is the Deposit of the Faith, and is required to be believed by all.
Dogma (eg. The Four Marks of the Church are that it is One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic): . A gift from God to the Church to help us understand more fully.
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Tantum_ergo
Guest
Read my lips. The Catholic Church does not, and never DID, state that everything the Pope says is infallible. That is your apparent contention AKA strawman, and it is wrong.
The Universal Norm for the Church indeed remains Friday abstinence unless one has an indult. The U.S. has, since 1965. The norm for abstinence is still there.
Wearing hats is still a pious practice. Hey, if you’re a man, you can still wear breeches instead of pantaloons.
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lodown0820
Guest
Dear read my lips: not a very Christian start. If you had read the entire post line, you would have realized that I was responding to someone who stated that Papal statements were infallible and I was showing that only statements of dogma, doctrine, and morality could be taken as truth. I remarked about the Papal response to Copernicus but was given a response about Galileo.
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EphelDuath
Guest
It’s actually sort of a myth that Galileo was punished for teaching heliocentrism. He was punished because after he was investigated for possible heresy, for which he was acquitted, Galileo became disillusioned from all the censorship and implicitly insulted the Pope. Insulting the reigning sovereign was a serious crime everywhere in Europe at the time, so it’s pretty lucky for him that he got off with just a house arrest.
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KathleenGee
Guest
I have been out the past several days.
I connected Galileo with Copernicus because commentaries on practically most major networks chuckle as they say the Vatican finally acquitted Galileo and Copernicus…as if for the past hundreds of years the Church had continued to hold on to the idea that the world was flat and that the sun revolved around the earth.
Funny thing is that the rest of the world held similar beliefs about the sun, the earth, the planets and their satellites as well.
To put abstaining from meat on Friday’s to prove the papacy infallibility in the same category also reveals that there is a great difference between the deposit of faith in the fullness of Christ’s revelation found in the Church and taught in the Living Tradition of the Church vs small ecclesial traditions that fit the particular times we live in.
It is a growing sentiment that the Church needs to return to a more ecclesial and universal practice of weekly abstinence to counteract the indulgence of flesh and self.
Finally, folks who have difficulty with the Church and science should study the ‘Dark Ages’ a misnomer for the Church as these were anything but if one were to look at the beginnings of the monastic life, their contributions to the livelihood of the surrounding populations, as well as the growing formation of Western civilization’s foundation in regards to education, health, social welfare, science, education developed up to university level for common populations, the framework of modern law as we know it, etc.
The Vatican Library is the greatest library in the world and living witness to the Truth of the Incarnation of Jesus Christ. We have populations of young people who do not realize they have been brainwashed against Christ’s Church.
If anything, the past 100 years has been truly a ‘Dark Age’ of reason and faith in face of the secular de-populizing forms of governments in the world, and their targeting the fruit of our generation – the young people.
The great tragedy is loss of faith of our young people and their own futures.
I connected Galileo with Copernicus because commentaries on practically most major networks chuckle as they say the Vatican finally acquitted Galileo and Copernicus…as if for the past hundreds of years the Church had continued to hold on to the idea that the world was flat and that the sun revolved around the earth.
Funny thing is that the rest of the world held similar beliefs about the sun, the earth, the planets and their satellites as well.
To put abstaining from meat on Friday’s to prove the papacy infallibility in the same category also reveals that there is a great difference between the deposit of faith in the fullness of Christ’s revelation found in the Church and taught in the Living Tradition of the Church vs small ecclesial traditions that fit the particular times we live in.
It is a growing sentiment that the Church needs to return to a more ecclesial and universal practice of weekly abstinence to counteract the indulgence of flesh and self.
Finally, folks who have difficulty with the Church and science should study the ‘Dark Ages’ a misnomer for the Church as these were anything but if one were to look at the beginnings of the monastic life, their contributions to the livelihood of the surrounding populations, as well as the growing formation of Western civilization’s foundation in regards to education, health, social welfare, science, education developed up to university level for common populations, the framework of modern law as we know it, etc.
The Vatican Library is the greatest library in the world and living witness to the Truth of the Incarnation of Jesus Christ. We have populations of young people who do not realize they have been brainwashed against Christ’s Church.
If anything, the past 100 years has been truly a ‘Dark Age’ of reason and faith in face of the secular de-populizing forms of governments in the world, and their targeting the fruit of our generation – the young people.
The great tragedy is loss of faith of our young people and their own futures.
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Tantum_ergo
Guest
Hmmm. . Sorry, I (Tantum ergo, not ‘read my lips’) did not realize that "read my lips’ was not "Christian’.
And your post (which I linked to my answer) was your FIRST post, and you said nothing about 'only dogma, doctrine, and morality (sic). … you didn’t link a person to whom YOU responded either, so how could I know you weren’t just coming out of thin air? And you do seem to be worried about ‘great misunderstanding’ but your own POSTS show a lot of misunderstanding. If you didn’t (and you didn’t then) distinguish between ‘dogma, doctrine, and morality’ but linked everything from Copenicus to hats and infer that they reflected a change and therefore argued against infallibility, then you contributed to the misunderstanding yourself. I said nothing about Galileo myself, and I was careful to start that your remark was ‘apparently’ a strawman contention and that the CONTENTION was wrong. I hope that we can get a better understanding of infallibility out there so that even its defenders won’t get confused as well.
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lodown0820
Guest
Dear read my lips: Obviously you are not well informed as the post you replied to was my third! Not first as you erroneously stated. That fact that you answered a reply to another individual also states something about inner anger inside you re: read my lips. I have already texted with the person who I was responding to and have come into understanding and agreement. Please learn to eliminate the hateHmmm. . Sorry, I (Tantum ergo, not ‘read my lips’) did not realize that "read my lips’ was not "Christian’.
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Tantum_ergo
Guest
Thanks so much and have a NICE day.
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KathleenGee
Guest
Goodness.
I was confused myself.
If I understand now better, the side issue is here how the American bishops let go of meatless Friday’s?..
I just joined a penitential association. It is private but approved to promote it. There is abstaining from meat 4 days a week. And actually I like it because well, it is more healthy. So there is self interest in it…nice surprise.
But I have had a hectic two weeks and it has been hard to say morning prayers. Hectic days…and it is nice they have statues so that I can modify to fit my life.
The English speaking bishops moderated abstinence by allowing us to eat meat on Friday’s but we are still to do some form of penance. But considering our intense our daily lives, I personally agree we should return to meatless Friday’s.
The bishops intend we follow the fullness of the Gospel to do remission for our sins, but so many people forget to do so. I think we need the old structure back. But it doesn’t mean they are not being faithful.
I was confused myself.
If I understand now better, the side issue is here how the American bishops let go of meatless Friday’s?..
I just joined a penitential association. It is private but approved to promote it. There is abstaining from meat 4 days a week. And actually I like it because well, it is more healthy. So there is self interest in it…nice surprise.
But I have had a hectic two weeks and it has been hard to say morning prayers. Hectic days…and it is nice they have statues so that I can modify to fit my life.
The English speaking bishops moderated abstinence by allowing us to eat meat on Friday’s but we are still to do some form of penance. But considering our intense our daily lives, I personally agree we should return to meatless Friday’s.
The bishops intend we follow the fullness of the Gospel to do remission for our sins, but so many people forget to do so. I think we need the old structure back. But it doesn’t mean they are not being faithful.
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jimkhong
Guest
I could be talking at cross-purposes here. This thread seems to have become a debate on infallibility itself.
I am not aware of a list and I believe there is none for the opposite expounded in this thread. I has always been taught that there has only been two occasions where the Pope spoke ex cathedra using that prescribed formulation: (i) the Papal Infallibility decree itself in 1870; and (ii) Dogma of the Immaculate Conception in 1950. Honestly, I have doubts about (i) in the sense of whether a document can refer to itself - a bit like the question of where Jesus Christ was a Christian?
You can also refer to Creative Fidelity: Weighing and Interpreting Documents of the Magisterium available in Amazon.com. Klaus Schatz listed the following infallible statements after his exhaustive research:
*]“Tome to Flavian”, Pope Leo I, 449, on the two natures in Christ, received by the Council of Chalcedon;Code:[LIST=1]
*] Letter of Pope Agatho, 680, on the two wills of Christ, received by the Third Council of Constantinople;
*] Benedictus Deus, Pope Benedict XII, 1336, on the beatific vision of the just after death rather than only just prior to final judgment;[70]
*] Cum occasione, Pope Innocent X, 1653, condemning five propositions of Jansen as heretical;
*] Auctorem fidei, Pope Pius VI, 1794, condemning seven Jansenist propositions of the Synod of Pistoia as heretical;
*] Ineffabilis Deus, Pope Pius IX, 1854, defining the Immaculate Conception;
*] Munificentissimus Deus, Pope Pius XII, 1950, defining the Assumption of Mary.
I hope this helps.
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