Where did Cain's wife come from?

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Verbum Caro:
Oh oh Magic, I think you may have fundamentally flawed conception of what 1)a person is and 2) what our soul is!

Our souls are rational souls, and thus we possess an intellect and will. Without a rational soul there is no intellect. Animals do not have rational souls (they are sans intellect and will) so they can’t ever become intelligent enough to have rational soul. Having a rational soul means you have intelligence.

So you don’t have to worry about human persons who had itelligence but NO soul. They wouldn’t 1)be human persons and 2)wouldn’t be intelligent!

What do you think? Does this make sense to you?
Yeh, it does, thats kinda my point. How can an animal be given a soul? with regard to the quoted text in my previous post. Im with you on this point.!! 👍
 
Verbum Caro:
Oh oh Magic, I think you may have fundamentally flawed conception of what 1)a person is and 2) what our soul is!

Our souls are rational souls, and thus we possess an intellect and will. Without a rational soul there is no intellect. Animals do not have rational souls (they are sans intellect and will) so they can’t ever become intelligent enough to have rational soul. Having a rational soul means you have intelligence.

So you don’t have to worry about human persons who had itelligence but NO soul. They wouldn’t 1)be human persons and 2)wouldn’t be intelligent!

What do you think? Does this make sense to you?
Do you see what i mean, how a soul cannot be rationalised to a thing, its part and parcel of what we are, so the notion that God gave a soul to a being already created is wrong? Are we just agreeing from differenet perspectives here? hehe. 🙂
 
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Magicsilence:
Yeh, it does, thats kinda my point. How can an animal be given a soul? with regard to the quoted text in my previous post. Im with you on this point.!! 👍
The CCC States:

Respect for the integrity of creation

[2415](javascript:openWindow(‘cr/2415.htm’)😉
The seventh commandment enjoins respect for the integrity of creation. Animals, like plants and inanimate beings, are by nature destined for the common good of past, present, and future humanity.195 Use of the mineral, vegetable, and animal resources of the universe cannot be divorced from respect for moral imperatives. Man’s dominion over inanimate and other living beings granted by the Creator is not absolute; it is limited by concern for the quality of life of his neighbor, including generations to come; it requires a religious respect for the integrity of creation.196

[2416](javascript:openWindow(‘cr/2416.htm’)😉 *Animals *are God’s creatures. He surrounds them with his providential care. By their mere existence they bless him and give him glory.197 Thus men owe them kindness. We should recall the gentleness with which saints like St. Francis of Assisi or St. Philip Neri treated animals.

[2417](javascript:openWindow(‘cr/2417.htm’)😉 God entrusted animals to the stewardship of those whom he created in his own image.198 Hence it is legitimate to use animals for food and clothing. They may be domesticated to help man in his work and leisure. Medical and scientific experimentation on animals is a morally acceptable practice if it remains within reasonable limits and contributes to caring for or saving human lives. [2418](javascript:openWindow(‘cr/2418.htm’)😉 It is contrary to human dignity to cause animals to suffer or die needlessly. It is likewise unworthy to spend money on them that should as a priority go to the relief of human misery. One can love animals; one should not direct to them the affection due only to persons.

Oddly enough, I could not find any specific information in the CCC about animals having a soul.🙂
 
One scenario: God didn’t give a soul to an already birthed non-souled humanoid, but at the moment of that humanoid’s conception, God gave it a soul.

On the other issue: even if Cain married his sister, that still doesn’t address the issue of the post-Noah World: whom did the sons and daughters of the Shem, Ham, and Japeth marry, after all humans not on the ark had died?

And what about the animals who went into the ark as a couple? Interbreeding in that context would have led to abnormalities, no?

I see these stories as theological lessons, not to be taken literally. When it comes to biblical texts, the theological is the literal, oftentimes.
 
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BibleReader:
Of course I do. It is obvious if you do Bible study.

The name “Cain,” or qayin in Hebrew, is ancient Hebrew humor. It means “[metal] fashioner” – “smith.” Cain’s name is the ancient Hebrew version of “Smith,” except that for those people, the significance of his name more clearly conveyed the occupation associated with his name, because unlike today there were blacksmiths everywhere, forging bronze and iron. Why was Cain called “smith”? Because he is the ancestor of Tubal-cain, the “ancestor of all who forge instruments of bronze and iron.” See Genesis 4:22. That’s the REAL reason.

The Hebrew joke is the reason Eve gives for naming Cain “smith” – she says that she calls him “Qayin” because “I have produced” [Hebrew *qaniti
] a man with the help of the Lord. Genesis 4:1. Aware that “Cain” means “smith,” a titter would have run through the storyteller’s audience when they hear Eve’s misguided reason for the name.

Abel’s name is a mild Syrian language pun. It means “herdsman.” How did Eve know when Abel was born, in Genesis 4:2, that Abel would become “a keeper of flocks”? She didn’t. It’s a mild pun – a joke.

This is the story of how Mr. Smith killed Mr. Herdsman.

What theology does this story teach?

Hmmmm,. let’s see…

Mr. Smith kills the shepherd, and as a consequence of doing so he is preserved from death (!!!) (see Genesis 4:15) and settles in the East (Genesis 4:16) – the Dawn Type, or symbol, referring to the Resurrection. Cain in other words, ends up preserved from death and in Resurrection Land – Heaven!

The story is fiction foreshadowing Christ’s sacrifice to save us from death and bring us to “Resurrection Land.”

Maybe I’m just having a moment, but that made no sense to me. Where did the “Smith” and the “Forger” come from? Are you saying that Moses and God just decided, while writing the literature that would change the lives of billions to come, to throw in a little joke. Oh yes I’m laughing. that was hilarious.Never seen anything so funny in my life :rolleyes: . You say this when the Bible clearly says that Eve bore Cain and Abel (Gen. 4-2). Do not so radicaly interpret the Bible. This was the ultimate mistake of the Raelians. So everything in the Old Testement, except for the Prophecies, are all just parables and never happened? Is that what you are saying?
 
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Ahimsa:
One scenario: God didn’t give a soul to an already birthed non-souled humanoid, but at the moment of that humanoid’s conception, God gave it a soul.

On the other issue: even if Cain married his sister, that still doesn’t address the issue of the post-Noah World: whom did the sons and daughters of the Shem, Ham, and Japeth marry, after all humans not on the ark had died?

And what about the animals who went into the ark as a couple? Interbreeding in that context would have led to abnormalities, no?

I see these stories as theological lessons, not to be taken literally. When it comes to biblical texts, the theological is the literal, oftentimes.
Actually, when one poses the questions you pose you are asking if we as Catholics read the Bible in a literalist sense, rather than a literal one. We Catholics read Holy Scripture in a literal sense. The difference is best explained by using the example of the expression “Raining Cats and Dogs”. If you read that in a literalist sense, you will insist that cats and dogs are falling from the clouds. If you read that as a Catholic reads Holy Scripture, you will know that it was raining very hard.
We know that God is the author of all truth. We know that God would not allow error in Holy Scripture. Therefore, we know that any seeming contradiction in Holy Scripture is due either to our inability to grasp the intention or due to poor translations. Any contradiction between Holy Scripture and present day scientific knowledge is because we, as human creatures, are unable to rectify the apparent problems.

This is why we can believe that the creation story of Adam and Eve can co-exist with the Theory of Evolution, or the Big Bang Theory, or the Theory of Creationism. For Catholics, we know that our understanding of Holy Scripture is limited by our own intellect. That’s why we trust God and the Holy Mother Church to guide us and we are not afraid of science.
 
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mike182d:
If the how is not important, why disregard the feasibility of the Creation story happening as portrayed in the Bible if we really have no credible evidence to the contrary?

If we really cannot know what happened in the beginning, would it not be more virtuous to err on the side of giving God too much credit than giving God too little?
Mike, what ARE the theological lessons in the creation stories. Do you have the vaguest idea?
 
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LSK:
Thanks for the offer. I determined to be a faithful Catholic and so my position stands. HOWEVER, I always find information interesting. It never shakes my faith or my opinion on Biblical matters because I am guided by The Holy Mother Church. While I don’t feel really comfortable handing out my email address, if your paper is published on line, please feel free to send the link to me in a private message. I am sure you did a lot of very good work on it and I would be interested in reading it.

Afterall, I can’t let that wonderful education received from UC Berkeley go to waste, can I?😉 Stop laughing, you!
It was published in The Catholic Answer magazine, put out by The Sunday Visitor organization.
 
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Chazemataz:
Maybe I’m just having a moment, but that made no sense to me. Where did the “Smith” and the “Forger” come from? Are you saying that Moses and God just decided, while writing the literature that would change the lives of billions to come, to throw in a little joke. Oh yes I’m laughing. that was hilarious.Never seen anything so funny in my life :rolleyes: . You say this when the Bible clearly says that Eve bore Cain and Abel (Gen. 4-2). Do not so radicaly interpret the Bible. This was the ultimate mistake of the Raelians. So everything in the Old Testement, except for the Prophecies, are all just parables and never happened? Is that what you are saying?
As I infer above, it is those who treat the Adam and Eve story and Cain and Abel story as history who are the radicals. It is clearly non-fiction teaching theology. For example, the Adam and Eve story portrays God as being stupid. It really does. Calmly read how God, looking for a partner for Adam, at first unsuccessfully tried to match him up with animals, and then God finally made Eve. See Genesis 2:18 et seq.

When I point this out, the Biblical literalists “ah-hem” and “ah-hum” and say, "Well, those verses are fiction!

And then I show them the next oddity.

And then the next oddity.

And then the next oddity.

Until all that is left is the bare claim, “Well, there was an ‘Adam’ and an ‘Eve’! That’s historical!”

And then I show them the Catechism paragraph that says that the last man, Christ, IS the first man, Adam.

Believe me, YOU are the radical, for accidentally inferring that the Genesis 2 verses inferring that God is stupid are history.

Who said “everything” in the Old Testament??? Not me.

Just about all of it is typological – allegorical. But “typology” =/= “fiction.” God is cleverer than that. In the case of the creation stories and Original Sin stories and certain other stories, they ARE fiction which teaches theology. Other stories are NON-fiction which is also allegorical.
 
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BibleReader:
Mike, what ARE the theological lessons in the creation stories. Do you have the vaguest idea?
The primary theological lesson in the whole of the Bible is that mankind is wholly and entirely dependent upon a loving but just God who is omnipotent, omniscient, and all-loving.

To find any method of God’s creation “unreasonable” in the face of our own fallibility is to downplay *the *primary lessons: God can do whatever the heck he wants, however he wants, and we will never fully understand the “why” or “how.”
 
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BibleReader:
It was published in The Catholic Answer magazine, put out by The Sunday Visitor organization.
Is that online and, if not, please send me the information necessary to order a copy of that publication…thanks!
 
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