Where did Eutychus go....

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Folks,

In re-reading Acts for the n thousandth time I started reflecting on something I can’t believe I never thought of before. Eutychus was sitting in a window when it appears Paul was delivering his sermon. Eutychus falls out of the window and dies upon hitting the ground. Paul of course brings him back from the dead. Now here’s the question. Where did Eutychus go when he died?? If he went to Heaven then he must have been pretty upset at coming back to this life but we don’t get that from the text. Anyone else ever think about this? How about the other folks the Apostles brought back to life? Where did they go? Did GOD not take them to Heaven knowing HE would let them be brought back to this life?
 
Ha. I could say Purgatory, but that would be bad, wouldn’t it? 🙂

Actually, the best answer that I could give is not where would they go, but what would happen. This is all Ralph’s conjecture, but it would seem that if they died and they were to be brought back to life, they could not have been judged. If they were not judged, they would not have gone to heaven, hell, or purgatory. More than likely, God held their soul until they were raised. God knew that this was about to happen, so He could make an exception that others may believe. We know that they were not in the Abode of the Fathers, as that ended with the Resurection.

If that is not good enough, I will go with purgatory.
 
ralphinal said:
Ha. I could say Purgatory, but that would be bad, wouldn’t it? 🙂

Actually, the best answer that I could give is not where would they go, but what would happen. This is all Ralph’s conjecture, but it would seem that if they died and they were to be brought back to life, they could not have been judged. If they were not judged, they would not have gone to heaven, hell, or purgatory. More than likely, God held their soul until they were raised. God knew that this was about to happen, so He could make an exception that others may believe. We know that they were not in the Abode of the Fathers, as that ended with the Resurection.

If that is not good enough, I will go with purgatory.
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Ralph sometimes I think you read my mind brother 🙂 I initially was thinking along the lines of purgatory but then came to the same exact conclusion you did. That GOD withheld judgment allowing them to be brought back so others would either start believing or the existing believers would be edified or probably both.

PEACE
 
NDfan said:
Ralph sometimes I think you read my mind brother 🙂 I initially was thinking along the lines of purgatory but then came to the same exact conclusion you did. That GOD withheld judgment allowing them to be brought back so others would either start believing or the existing believers would be edified or probably both.

PEACE
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Exactly. You are dead on that if they were in heaven, they would be plenty mad when they were brought back.

This does tie in to purgatory in a way. First, it does give us another option in death. Sure, it is a limited one, but it is another option. Second, these people were given more time to be ready to get to heaven and to help others. Sure, it is reaching, but it is the same concept.

I would love to be able to say this proves Purgatory, but I cannot do so honestly. All that it shows is that the Apostles HAD all Authority that Jesus had.
 
ralphinal said:
Exactly. You are dead on that if they were in heaven, they would be plenty mad when they were brought back.

This does tie in to purgatory in a way. First, it does give us another option in death. Sure, it is a limited one, but it is another option. Second, these people were given more time to be ready to get to heaven and to help others. Sure, it is reaching, but it is the same concept.

I would love to be able to say this proves Purgatory, but I cannot do so honestly. All that it shows is that the Apostles HAD all Authority that Jesus had.
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Ralph if it wasn’t purgatory then it had to be some type of holding place for lack of a better word. It does pose an interesting scenario for us to exchange thoughts/ideas on though 🙂 I like your thought of staying here to help others. I don’t think that is reaching at all.

PEACE brother
 
NDfan said:
Ralph if it wasn’t purgatory then it had to be some type of holding place for lack of a better word. It does pose an interesting scenario for us to exchange thoughts/ideas on though 🙂 I like your thought of staying here to help others. I don’t think that is reaching at all.

PEACE brother
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I think that we have to define what these places are and are not.

Heaven is a place where humans are in union with God without human limitations getting in the way.

Hell would be the opposite. It would be a place of separation from God where the ability of humans to seek forgiveness and union with God is not possible.

I know both of these leave out some of the popular, and Biblical, points. However, in the end, that is what they are. No one in heaven would want to leave and no one in hell can leave.

Purgatory is a place where those who are not fully separated from God by sin lose what little attachment to sin they have left so that they can be fully in God’s presence. If you make it this far, you will be in heaven.

We also know that souls of the Rightous who died before Christ were, for the most part, held in a special place. It is the “prison” mentioned in Scriptures where Jesus preached to the souls.

Even if we ignore the Catholic Concept of Purgatory (and the Jewish concept of souls being purified before union with God and the EO idea of toll-houses), there were three distinct places in scripture where souls ended up. That being the case, why is a forth or fifth out of the question?

Theologically, souls in purgatory are said to be aware but not like the saints in heaven. Jesus described both the rich man and Lazerous as being aware. Those who were dead and brough back to life do not seem to have been aware and do not talk about what they saw. They seem to have been asleep, which is how they are described in Scripture. We must also remmember that in the afterlife, there is no concept of time. To these souls, they may have never left their body at all, even though they were dead for days in some cases.

Part of our problem may be that we are looking for a place when in fact, it was just an instant to them. God just “held them in his hand.”

To me, the strongest evidence for purgatory has always been the Jewish concept of praying for the dead. The concept existed in the time of Christ. Jesus never once told them to stop, so why should we think that prayers for the dead are of no use?
 
ralphinal said:
I think that we have to define what these places are and are not.

Heaven is a place where humans are in union with God without human limitations getting in the way.

Hell would be the opposite. It would be a place of separation from God where the ability of humans to seek forgiveness and union with God is not possible.

I know both of these leave out some of the popular, and Biblical, points. However, in the end, that is what they are. No one in heaven would want to leave and no one in hell can leave.

Purgatory is a place where those who are not fully separated from God by sin lose what little attachment to sin they have left so that they can be fully in God’s presence. If you make it this far, you will be in heaven.

We also know that souls of the Rightous who died before Christ were, for the most part, held in a special place. It is the “prison” mentioned in Scriptures where Jesus preached to the souls.

Even if we ignore the Catholic Concept of Purgatory (and the Jewish concept of souls being purified before union with God and the EO idea of toll-houses), there were three distinct places in scripture where souls ended up. That being the case, why is a forth or fifth out of the question?

Theologically, souls in purgatory are said to be aware but not like the saints in heaven. Jesus described both the rich man and Lazerous as being aware. Those who were dead and brough back to life do not seem to have been aware and do not talk about what they saw. They seem to have been asleep, which is how they are described in Scripture. We must also remmember that in the afterlife, there is no concept of time. To these souls, they may have never left their body at all, even though they were dead for days in some cases.

Part of our problem may be that we are looking for a place when in fact, it was just an instant to them. God just “held them in his hand.”

To me, the strongest evidence for purgatory has always been the Jewish concept of praying for the dead. The concept existed in the time of Christ. Jesus never once told them to stop, so why should we think that prayers for the dead are of no use?
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Ralph great post. I always wondered what these folks said when they were brought back. I can imagine many people saying “what was it like”, “do you remember anything” etc. etc. I’m with you on the sleep explanation as we do see that in scripture.

The only place I may differ slightly is on prayers for the dead. As I understand from the Jewish culture they pray for the dead and actually I believe when the Temple was still standing they also made sacrifices for them for their sins. I thought this was done in anticipation of the messiah and eventual resurrection. Given Jesus was the Messiah would prayers still be necessary? If purgatory does exist as a place let’s say to keep it simple, then we both agree it’s on the way to Heaven. In that scenario I was taught to pray that folks would have a shorter time per se in purgatory. I tend to be in the camp that purgatory is a more instantaneous cleansing action taken by GOD to purify us just before entering Heaven. Hence tying into scripture that nothing clean can enter the Kingdom. In this scenario what would we be praying for given that GOD would have taken action upon the time of death? Help me out on this one. I’ve heard Priests debate this many times acknowledging purgatory could be instantaneous.

PEACE
 
NDfan said:
Ralph great post. I always wondered what these folks said when they were brought back. I can imagine many people saying “what was it like”, “do you remember anything” etc. etc. I’m with you on the sleep explanation as we do see that in scripture.

The only place I may differ slightly is on prayers for the dead. As I understand from the Jewish culture they pray for the dead and actually I believe when the Temple was still standing they also made sacrifices for them for their sins. I thought this was done in anticipation of the messiah and eventual resurrection. Given Jesus was the Messiah would prayers still be necessary? If purgatory does exist as a place let’s say to keep it simple, then we both agree it’s on the way to Heaven. In that scenario I was taught to pray that folks would have a shorter time per se in purgatory. I tend to be in the camp that purgatory is a more instantaneous cleansing action taken by GOD to purify us just before entering Heaven. Hence tying into scripture that nothing clean can enter the Kingdom. In this scenario what would we be praying for given that GOD would have taken action upon the time of death? Help me out on this one. I’ve heard Priests debate this many times acknowledging purgatory could be instantaneous.

PEACE
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There are a lot of ways that we can look at this. Let’s see each one and how I think about it.

Let’s say that Purgatory is not instantanious but there is a process. Granted, it is outside of our time, but still. That is the classic example and prayers for them would be to ease the process.

Now, the instant model. The prayers in this case could be two fold. First, it could be that they even get the chance at all. I’ll get back to this later. Second, it could be that God uses these prayers to aid the person in that instant by a mechanism I cannot comprehend.

Let’s say there is no purgatory. Just a line or two ago, I said that the prayers could be that they get the chance to be purged. The same idea applies here. God, who is outside of time, knows our prayers for this person’s conversion. IN that one instant before it is too late, those prayers are granted in the sense that God gives one last shot for the person to act upon the grace of God. Thus, they are saved.

In all three cases, prayer for the dead is useful.

Now, a real example. I had a great aunt who sent her sons to WWII. She prayed daily that they return safe and sound. They did. Why were her prayers heard and so many others were not? I do not know. What I do know is that every day after they came back, she prayed only one prayer: that of thanksgiving, until they had grandchildren. At that time, she had two prayers. She offered masses in thanksgiving and who knows how many roseries.

Can we think that God, who knows all before it begins, knew of her gratitude and granted her prayers? Is it impossible that God preserved them based on her faith alone?
 
I was hoping more people would participate in this conversation
 
Eutychus could have gone to the limbo of the father. But we don’t know. The best we can know is that he wasn’t dead, merely sleeping. Just like the daughter whom Jesus raised from the dead.
 
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