Where did evil come from?

[atheistgirl]

Just some thoughts that have come into my head reading other posts - where did ‘‘evil’’ come from.

If ‘‘good’’ exists objectively, because God exists, and God is all good, so can’t do anything evil, or make anything evil, and we’re made in the image of God, so our nature is ‘‘good’’ as it’s from God, and nothing evil can come from God - where the heck did evil come from?

If the argument is it’s from our free will - then doesn’t that mean God has given us something He himself hasn’t got - the ability to do evil.

If we have to have this free will as some kind of test, isn’t that a bit like a parent who never played with matches because they by their goodness know it’s dangerous, giving a box of matches to their kids to play with, just to see if they’ll burn the place down

Seems like the height of irresponsibility to me.

If God doesn’t have free will, and He can’t have since He can’t chose to do evil, why did He make it possible for us to do something He abhors

And why do the consequences of the choices we apparently have to be allowed to make out of free will, have to have a good or evil consequence? Why couldn’t God chose to set things up such that we still had choices, free will, but when exercised, we could only chose from levels of goodness, something God Himself admires.

Sarah x

 

[edward_george]

Just a couple of initial points.

Having free will is not a test, as you put it, rather it’s a gift. The ability to choose the good only has any merit insofar as it is freely chosen. God could have created robots who would always choose him, but that’s not real love. Real love involves a choice of the good–in the case of the love of God, choosing the highest good. God’s love is such that he desires other beings to share in his love, which they can only do if they choose it freely.

Evil, then, is the choice of a lesser good in place of a higher one. Thus, it is not an ability, but a deficiency. We were given free will so that in freedom we could choose the good, this is the best use of our free will. Our free will can be abused. When someone uses a hammer to pound in a nail, this is a good use of the hammer. When someone uses that same hammer to pound in someone’s skull, this is an abuse of the hammer. Just the same, free will can be used or abused, but it was given to us so that it would be directed toward the good–and ultimately to the highest good, God himself.

Also, you say “God doesn’t have free will.” That’s a sort of clunky way of putting it. God certainly does all that he does in sovereign freedom, which is why we say that our free will is a gift from God and is what gives us the ability to share in his goodness–because our free will was intended to be directed toward the good. God’s will is eternal and unchanging, but nonetheless free.

-ACEGC

 

[andreashofer]

If God doesn’t have free will, and He can’t have since He can’t chose to do evil, why did He make it possible for us to do something He abhors .

When I say to my best friend:: “Why are you so good to me? Do you have no other choice?”, he would answer: “I love you, because in this I can share my happiness with you. Yes, I have the freedom to be your best friend?”

After this, would I not have the duty to be even more grateful for the gift of this kind of friendship?

God is Love and he lives in the beautiful freedom of eternal love. How grateful should we be to have him as our Father.

Evil is the absence of God, not the choice of God. Evil is also the subordinate reality and the opposite of beauty as beauty is understood as not in the eye of the beholder, but absolute and fulfilled in God.

And…what kind of Father is that, who doesn’t chastise his children for their own good? Glory to God for his righteousness. He puts us straight. Sometimes he even uses the devil for an instrument of his chastisement. God can do that, because he is master of all his creatures. Love doesn’t want us to go to hell, but to eternal happiness. We are souls, created by Love, for Love and with Love, spiritually and physically.

Our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name, thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us, and lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. For yours is the kingdom, the power and the glory, now and forever. Amen (I make the sign of the cross)

 

[atheistgirl]

God’s will is eternal and unchanging, but nonetheless free.

-ACEGC

Not free to do evil or bad things though, right?

So is God the robot you say we would become if we didn’t have free will?

Sarah x

 

[atheistgirl]

Sometimes he even uses the devil for an instrument of his chastisement. God can do that, because he is master of all his creatures.

If God is objectively good, then the Devil is objectively bad, right?

We are told in the Catechism of the Catholic Church that using evil to obtain good, however well intentioned is never ever justified.

How is then that God can use evil to obtain good?

Sarah x

 

[Samuel63]

Evil comes from rejecting God. This first occurred with the arc-angel named Lucifer. He was the brightest of the bunch. He did not like the plan God laid out. He fell from heaven and now tries to take as many souls as possible down to hell with him.

We are stuck in a mid-point, perhaps aptly called middle earth by J.R.R. Tolkien. It is our job to resist evil and embrace all that God teaches directly and through the church he established so that we may advance to heaven.

 

[edward_george]

Not free to do evil or bad things though, right?

So is God the robot you say we would become if we didn’t have free will?

Sarah x

Having an unchanging will which is always oriented toward the good is perfection. To do other than the good would be limitation, which would mean God is not perfect, which would mean he is not God. You seem to imply that doing bad things is not a limitation–to do evil is actually, as I said above, an offense against freedom. Freedom was given to us to be directed toward the good. An effect cannot be greater than its cause, so only God acts in perfect freedom rightly directed–when we do evil, we abuse our freedom.

-ACEGC

 

[atheistgirl]

angel named Lucifer. He was the brightest of the bunch. He did not like the plan God laid out. He fell from heaven and now tries to take as many souls as possible down to hell with him.

My introduction to Tolkien was The Hobbit. I then read the Lord of the Rings. Awesome books.

Anyhow, so the Devil had free will in heaven? And despite being in God’s perfection, for eternity, used this free will to challenge God? Does this mean then our place in heaven can’t be secure, because, at some point, we may exercise our free will in heaven to annoy or challenge God, and get cast out?

Sarah x

 

[just_came_back]

a pro-life atheist? There’s a first!

 

[meltzerboy]

Not free to do evil or bad things though, right?

So is God the robot you say we would become if we didn’t have free will?

Sarah x

Doing evil or bad things is not part of the nature or essence of G-d since, otherwise, G-d’s essence would be deficient. It is a matter of G-d’s perfect essence rather than His act of doing something good or evil. The latter is temporal and would suggest changeability in G-d rather than permanence. G-d, however, transcends time and space by means of the nature of His eternally present and perfect being.

 

[meltzerboy]

Just a couple of initial points.

Having free will is not a test, as you put it, rather it’s a gift. The ability to choose the good only has any merit insofar as it is freely chosen. God could have created robots who would always choose him, but that’s not real love. Real love involves a choice of the good–in the case of the love of God, choosing the highest good. God’s love is such that he desires other beings to share in his love, which they can only do if they choose it freely.

Evil, then, is the choice of a lesser good in place of a higher one. Thus, it is not an ability, but a deficiency. We were given free will so that in freedom we could choose the good, this is the best use of our free will. Our free will can be abused. When someone uses a hammer to pound in a nail, this is a good use of the hammer. When someone uses that same hammer to pound in someone’s skull, this is an abuse of the hammer. Just the same, free will can be used or abused, but it was given to us so that it would be directed toward the good–and ultimately to the highest good, God himself.

Also, you say “God doesn’t have free will.” That’s a sort of clunky way of putting it. God certainly does all that he does in sovereign freedom, which is why we say that our free will is a gift from God and is what gives us the ability to share in his goodness–because our free will was intended to be directed toward the good. God’s will is eternal and unchanging, but nonetheless free.

-ACEGC

Great post, and very much in accord with Jewish teaching about the nature of G-d.

 

[Gods_Peace]

Evil is anything against God. As his creatures, we are made to know our God, who in Truth is our ultimate and supreme good, he is our dreams desire, since he put those dreams in your spirit to seek him with his counsel all the way, he is who we are to be with at all times, who we are to walk with. So we avoid anything that may harm our relationship with God, evil are crimes against life, which are really against God. We never had to partake in this great supper of life, but by Gods goodness, mercy, and Grace, we are all here. God wants us to always be in him, not just in this life, but in the next, so we can participate in the eternal order, so we can know and love God.

 

[meltzerboy]

My introduction to Tolkien was The Hobbit. I then read the Lord of the Rings. Awesome books.

Anyhow, so the Devil had free will in heaven? And despite being in God’s perfection, for eternity, used this free will to challenge God? Does this mean then our place in heaven can’t be secure, because, at some point, we may exercise our free will in heaven to annoy or challenge God, and get cast out?

Sarah x

Here Judaism departs from Catholicism in that the former does not believe Satan has free will. (Judaism also does not believe Satan is a fallen angel who opposes G-d, but that is the topic for another thread.) In fact, according to Jewish belief, none of the angels, including Satan, have free will. Only humans have free will, whereas neither the angels in heaven nor the beasts on earth do. This makes humans uniquely loved in the eyes of G-d. Further, the free will that G-d has given to humans as a gift is limited to their time on Earth and is no longer needed in heaven. Once humans ascend to heaven after being purified in purgatory, they are in G-d’s presence and have no earthly needs, including that of free will. Since they are then in a state of glory, they have no thought or desire to rebel against G-d, similar to the angels.

 

[Contra_Mundum_1]

Anyhow, so the Devil had free will in heaven? And despite being in God’s perfection, for eternity, used this free will to challenge God? Does this mean then our place in heaven can’t be secure, because, at some point, we may exercise our free will in heaven to annoy or challenge God, and get cast out?

Sarah x

From what we know of Heaven, there is no evil there. Heaven is being with God, contemplating Him. When a soul gets there it has no other desire but to be with God because He is everything, He is perfection. In Heaven we will become what God has intended us to be. Love does that to people.
As for angels, they are different from us. Those who rebelled against God knew perfectly well what they were doing and why.

 

[andreashofer]

If God is objectively good, then the Devil is objectively bad, right?

We are told in the Catechism of the Catholic Church that using evil to obtain good, however well intentioned is never ever justified.

How is then that God can use evil to obtain good?

Sarah x

Dear Sarah,

It is certainly up to you on whether you want to see the beauty of this teaching and live by it or decide not to put it on your agenda. In your love we are free. I sin we are bound.

The devil is a creature, he is not the personified evil. Everything about him is evil, yes, but our Father, who is creator of all things never wanted him to be an evil rebellion.

Satan, the devil, has separated himself from God by sin, which leads to death. God had a plan for Lucifer, before he became Satan. Lucifer was an angel of light and through sin he is fallen from his rank and turned into darkness. Satan, because he is jealous of us being called the children of God, wants to bound us to the same destiny that has befallen on him, which is hell. Satan’s intention is only one: Sin against the commandments of the Almighty Creator!

Darkness is the absence of light.

God is light and in him there is no darkness. God hates sin. Sin is what separates us, his children, from receiving his infinite Love.

We are right, when we say: “Using evil to obtain good, however well intentioned is never ever justified.” Why, because for us as little children, we got to be obedient to the Father, keeping his commandments, not speculating on his goodness after stumbling into sin, or putting him to the test and always ready for the hour of death, living every day as is were the last, not wanting to die in sin." Nevertheless we must be confident in his Divine Mercy and Sacred Heart.

Instead of saying:“God uses evil in order to obtain good”, I rather say God uses everything in his might to make us his inheritance in Love. He creates us, without us being frightened of Him, but embracing him freely without fear, just like the image of St. Joseph and Jesus. St. Joesph embraced Jesus out of Love, not because he was frightened of the Son of God. Why, because Jesus was just a little baby. God became a baby. How can you not embrace him with Love?

In the name of the Father, of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, may the little child Jesus touch your heart of flesh. (I make the sign of the cross)

 

[Gods_Peace]

Dear Sarah,

It is certainly up to you on whether you want to see the beauty of this teaching and live by it or decide not to put it on your agenda. In your love we are free. I sin we are bound.

The devil is a creature, he is not the personified evil. Everything about him is evil, yes, but our Father, who is creator of all things never wanted him to be an evil rebellion.

Satan, the devil, has separated himself from God by sin, which leads to death. God had a plan for Lucifer, before he became Satan. Lucifer was an angel of light and through sin he is fallen from his rank and turned into darkness. Satan, because he is jealous of us being called the children of God, wants to bound us to the same destiny that has befallen on him, which is hell. Satan’s intention is only one: Sin against the commandments of the Almighty Creator!

Darkness is the absence of light.

God is light and in him there is no darkness. God hates sin. Sin is what separates us, his children, from receiving his infinite Love.

We are right, when we say: “Using evil to obtain good, however well intentioned is never ever justified.” Why, because for us as little children, we got to be obedient to the Father, keeping his commandments, not speculating on his goodness after stumbling into sin, or putting him to the test and always ready for the hour of death, living every day as is were the last, not wanting to die in sin." Nevertheless we must be confident in his Divine Mercy and Sacred Heart.

Instead of saying:“God uses evil in order to obtain good”, I rather say God uses everything in his might to make us his inheritance in Love. He creates us, without us being frightened of Him, but embracing him freely without fear, just like the image of St. Joseph and Jesus. St. Joesph embraced Jesus out of Love, not because he was frightened of the Son of God. Why, because Jesus was just a little baby. God became a baby. How can you not embrace him with Love?

In the name of the Father, of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, may the little child Jesus touch your heart of flesh. (I make the sign of the cross)

God hates sin so much it can’t be in his presence, in the same way that true good is ussually only found around good things.

 

[pgnat1]

How is then that God can use evil to obtain good?

Can good exist without evil?

 

[davidv]

If God is objectively good, then the Devil is objectively bad, right?

Not right? Satan is a creature of God. As such, he is objectively good. His choice was objectively evil, and because his nature, his decision was irreversable one that caused an eternal separation from God.

We are told in the Catechism of the Catholic Church that using evil to obtain good, however well intentioned is never ever justified.

He also obtains good from good, there the presence of evil is not necessary.

How is then that God can use evil to obtain good?

Sarah x

By giving others the grace and the free will to love, in spite of the presence of evil.