First thank you. I may not agree with you but thank you for taking a small portion of time to give me an explanation. My issue though is the “outside” portion. Isn’t it logical that something has to be in our, definition, of time in order to interact with it. I can be wrong but I think there is a hypothesis that has the universe always existing and didn’t have a “start”.It’s certainly hard for us to conceive or explain, but I don’t think it’s ridiculous.
Even physics (since Einstein) agrees that time is contingent – if the Big Bang cosmology is correct, spacetime as we know it “started” then. Time is not just the unchanging background reality upon which things happen – time itself came into existence and could very well pass from existence.
Those of us who believe in God as Creator believe that He created the entire universe, including space and time themselves. Thus, hard as it is for us to imagine, His own existence is not limited by time and space. We therefore say, with some imprecision, that God is “outside” of time. When we speak of God, eternity does not mean an infinite piling up of seconds and minutes and hours and days, but the alternate definition of “a state to which time has no application.”
This is a forum of Catholic Theology not math or the English Language…So here is the definition of …
Time is real, but God doesn’t change and so doesn’t experience change. He has one eternal act of creation for the universe and this act isn’t just setting the universe in motion, but the creation of the universe at all moments in time. In his one, eternal, unchanging moment, knowing full well his act, he has knowledge of all points in time. Him creating the world, speaking to Abraham, speaking to Moses, etc… are all part of one action for him. Not subsequent steps that he experiences one after another. That goes for all points in time. He has knowledge of all points at once and of their proper order and relationship to each other, though they don’t all exist at once, even if from his perspective his knowledge of them and his act is directed to all in his singular now of eternity.First thank you. I may not agree with you but thank you for taking a small portion of time to give me an explanation. My issue though is the “outside” portion. Isn’t it logical that something has to be in our, definition, of time in order to interact with it. I can be wrong but I think there is a hypothesis that has the universe always existing and didn’t have a “start”.
Okay here is an issue. God cannot change so then the story of Abraham trying to get Yahweh to not destroy Sodom and Gahmorrah was useless as Yahweh already made iits mind up to destroy the cities. Same thing for the flood myth. How can a being incapable of change feel sorry for having destroyed the world?Time is real, but God doesn’t change and so doesn’t experience change.
I am coming up with the problem of evil in my mind because of this.He has one eternal act of creation for the universe and this act isn’t just setting the universe in motion, but the creation of the universe at all moments in time. In his one, eternal, unchanging moment, knowing full well his act, he has knowledge of all points in time. Him creating the world, speaking to Abraham, speaking to Moses, etc… are all part of one action for him. Not subsequent steps that he experiences one after another. That goes for all points in time. He has knowledge of all points at once and of their proper order and relationship to each other, though they don’t all exist at once, even if from his perspective his knowledge of them and his act is directed to all in his singular now of eternity.
Agreed but it does help to know the definitions of things to have the proper context for what they mean.This is a forum of Catholic Theology not math or the English Language…
*Theological *definitions…and those of Catholic Philosophy.Agreed but it does help to know the definitions of things to have the proper context for what they mean.
The problem with using “Theological” definitions is not everyone knows them. Not everyone studies Christian Theology. So by using common definitions a common ground can be found. I brought up the math one because infinity is a concept not a static thing.*Theological *definitions…and those of Catholic Philosophy.
Confusion often sets in of one uses the definition from one science or arena in an different science or use common definitions -where there is a particular one.
I bid you a fine evening.
Except now you’re speaking as if God knew the result before these things happened, which isn’t exactly the case. There is no before or after in his knowledge or act. It’s one immediate unfolding in His knowledge that still accounts for our free will and our interaction with him, not passing in time in his knowledge but still in his knowledge known as a series of dependencies. We only encounter a problem of free will if God exists in his being in a way in which he is at one time this way and at another time that way.Okay here is an issue. God cannot change so then the story of Abraham trying to get Yahweh to not destroy Sodom and Gahmorrah was useless as Yahweh already made iits mind up to destroy the cities. Same thing for the flood myth. How can a being incapable of change feel sorry for having destroyed the world?
Quick aside is Yahweh took away “free will” from the pharaoh in the Exodus story by “Hardening his heart”. Also isn’t Yahweh all knowing? If yes then Yahweh knew that Adam and Eve would fall, that Satan would fall, that Cain would kill Able. Being that the events are all one thing to Yahweh why didn’t it stop those events.Except now you’re speaking as if God knew the result before these things happened, which isn’t exactly the case. There is no before or after in his knowledge or act. It’s one immediate unfolding in His knowledge that still accounts for our free will and our interaction with him, not passing in time in his knowledge but still in his knowledge known as a series of dependencies. We only encounter a problem of free will if God exists in his being in a way in which he is at one time this way and at another time that way.
Besides, I think even both Thomist and Molinist schools of thought on what free will actually is would surprise you, and those are the two biggest schools of thought in Catholic theology, though neither is dogmatic. “Popular” conceptions of free will seem to greatly ignore God’s providence and sovereignty in history and events compared to Thomism or even Molinism.
But this is what?The problem with using “Theological” definitions is not everyone knows them. Not everyone studies Christian Theology. So by using common definitions a common ground can be found. I brought up the math one because infinity is a concept not a static thing.
Asking what is meant by being “outside of time” because it sounds logically flawed. I stand by it is ridiculous because having something “outside” of time should disqualify it from interacting with this time. Now maybe quantum theory may have something to say but it is far beyond my knowledge.But this is what?
The Catholic Answers Forum…
Where Theology gets discussed …
I provided a start with that web page from Jimmy Akin.
Do you remember your simply dismissing something as ridiculous -while not even knowing what it is?
That’s not necessarily the Catholic understanding of that passage.Quick aside is Yahweh took away “free will” from the pharaoh in the Exodus story by “Hardening his heart”.
Knew is a tricky word, as it implies a change in His state from one moment to the next. But yes, in His one eternal act which was the same then as it is now, He knows (eternally) that Adam and Eve fell and did not stop the event though He could have.Also isn’t Yahweh all knowing? If yes then Yahweh knew that Adam and Eve would fall, that Satan would fall, that Cain would kill Able. Being that the events are all one thing to Yahweh why didn’t it stop those events.
You dismissed it…using that not nice word.Asking what is meant by being “outside of time” because it sounds logically flawed. I stand by it is ridiculous because having something “outside” of time should disqualify it from interacting with this time. Now maybe quantum theory may have something to say but it is far beyond my knowledge.
Time, you, me, the planets, the stars, as e not something necessarily separated entirely from God as something to be interacted with. Their very existence and being is God’s doing. And I don’t mean that as past tense. It’s not like a clock that He created and is then reaching in to tweak. It’s music that exists because the musician is playing, or a computer program that’s running because the computer (God, in this metaphor) is running it. These metaphors are limited because a musician and computer exist within time, but I’m just demonstrating the relationship. We aren’t something God is only interacting with, we are also His act. That’s how He knows. He isn’t an outside observer reaching in, He is something that acts, and he doesn’t know by watching, but by knowing what His own action is. Beings are separate from God, but we are also in some senses one, as we all participate in His own act of existence.Asking what is meant by being “outside of time” because it sounds logically flawed. I stand by it is ridiculous because having something “outside” of time should disqualify it from interacting with this time. Now maybe quantum theory may have something to say but it is far beyond my knowledge.
And there in lies a problem. Wouldn’t it be better to take the Jewish interpretation of the old testament seeing how they are the ones who wrote it? Like how “original sin” is more Cain killing Able and not Adam and Eve being thrown out of the garden.That’s not necessarily the Catholic understanding of that passage.
Knew is a tricky word, as it implies a change in His state from one moment to the next. But yes, in His one eternal act which was the same then as it is now, He knows (eternally) that Adam and Eve fell and did not stop the event though He could have.
Fair but it would beg the question, to me at least, why is Yahweh considered all good when clearly it isn’t. Not with allowing evil to come into the world or as Isaiah 45:7 said Yahweh created evil.But you’re not exactly stumbling on new objections here. There’s millennia of thoughts and responses to the implied objection here by various theologians of all Abrahamic religions on the subject.
Not thinking of god as god? There are different ways to think of god???You dismissed it…using that not nice word.
It only sounds that why to you cause your thinking of God not as God.
(Gave you Jimmy site for starts.)
No it is not ridiculous - God is not a creature in time. Your approaching God as if God were a creature.
So god is more a concept?That that is - is by God.
God is yes outside of time.
All that is past present and future for us in time - is before God as present.
God creates all that exists…including what we call time.
“Outside” is simply an analogical human way to try to speak of this reality. But I suppose in away it too can mislead.
So magic then?God far transcends creation and causes all of creation.
My problem with this is one we know how a good majority of things started. From stars to the biological process of having kids. We don’t know everything but we are exploring. Seeing how Yahweh supposedly acts wouldn’t it then be best for “all loving” Yahweh to stop bad things from happening?Time, you, me, the planets, the stars, as e not something necessarily separated entirely from God as something to be interacted with. Their very existence and being is God’s doing. And I don’t mean that as past tense. It’s not like a clock that He created and is then reaching in to tweak. It’s music that exists because the musician is playing, or a computer program that’s running because the computer (God, in this metaphor) is running it. These metaphors are limited because a musician and computer exist within time, but I’m just demonstrating the relationship. We aren’t something God is only interacting with, we are also His act. That’s how He knows. He isn’t an outside observer reaching in, He is something that acts, and he doesn’t know by watching, but by knowing what His own action is. Beings are separate from God, but we are also in some senses one, as we all participate in His own act of existence.
Your thinking of God as if God were a creature in time.Not thinking of god as god? There are different ways to think of god???