Where did Jesus say

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I am in a discussion with a non-Catholic on another forum. How can I answer this question:
where did Jesus say in the Bible to do penance? If you are truly sorry about your sins you don’t repeat them…there is no need for penance.
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So far I have Matthew 6:17 where Jesus describes how to fast. But are there other specific passages where Jesus mentions penitential acts?

Thanks!
 
Hi Cattitude! Read this… It spells it out rather well!

ewtn.com/library/encyc/i23PAENI.HTM

If you read this you can direct your argument to the fact that doing penance is an OUTWARD EXPRESSION of repentance.

The bible itself shows us that to repent is not solely an internal change if attitude.

Another way to look at it is what Jesus says in Matthew 16:24, Luke 9:23 and Mark 8:24… ""If any of you wants to be my follower, you must turn from … said to them,
“If anyone wants to follow me, he must deny himself, pick up his cross…”

And also in Romans 8:16-18 Paul tells us to suffer. We can do this through penance.

Subrosa
 
We can look Jesus’ teaching in the sermon on the mount in the context of owing debts and how debtors prisons operated in those times.

Settle with your opponent quickly while on the way to court with him. Otherwise your opponent will hand you over to the judge, and the judge will hand you over to the guard, and you will be thrown into prison. Amen, I say to you, you will not be released until you have paid the last penny. (Matthew 5:25-26)

Much of the language about “salvation” and “redemption” come from how debtor’s prisons operated. We don’t have the context anymore because we don’t have debtor’s prisons anymore. . Your non-Catholic friend will likely not agree with this but when we sin, we are condemned to the prision of Hell. We can desire to get out of prision all we want, but until we repent and actually pay back the debt, we won’t be let out.

All through the Old Testament, when people sinned and subsequently repented, they did so not only in their heart but demonstrated their repentance as well. They “Put on sackcloth and ashes” and offered sacrifice for their sins. These were visible signs that they had truly repented, and were acts of worship toward God.

-Tim-
 
+:bible1: The Holy Bible (Douay Rheims Version [Douai-Rheims], Revised by Bishop Richard Challoner) is a wonderful translation . . . it was first translated . . . word for word . . . from the Latin Vulgate, the Catholic Church’s Official Bible. Bishop Challoner’s edition phrases it to make it more reader-friendly. It was the only English Catholic Bible for over 300 years and has been greatly blessed of God as such. The active holy term “penance” is steeped in centuries upon centuries of Sacred :bible1: Scripture and **Sacred Tradition **within the Catholic Church . . .

. . . :coffeeread: . . .
THE HOLY :bible1: BIBLE
Douay Rheims Version

NEW :bible1: TESTAMENT PENANCE SCRIPTURES

Matthew 3:2
And saying: Do penance: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Matthew 3:8
Bring forth therefore fruit worthy of penance.

Matthew 3:11
I indeed baptize you in the water unto penance, but he that shall come after me, is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear; he shall baptize you in the Holy Ghost and fire.

Matthew 4:17
From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say: Do penance, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Matthew 11:20
Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein were done the most of his miracles, for that they had not done penance.

Matthew 11:21
Woe to thee, Corozain, woe to thee, Bethsaida: for if in Tyre and Sidon had been wrought the miracles that have been wrought in you, they had long ago done penance in sackcloth and ashes.

Matthew 12:41
The men of Ninive shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they did penance at the preaching of Jonas. And behold a greater than Jonas here.

Mark 1:4
John was in the desert baptizing, and preaching the baptism of penance, unto remission of sins.

Mark 6:12
And going forth they preached that men should do penance:

Luke 3:3
And he came into all the country about the Jordan, preaching the baptism of penance for the remission of sins;

Luke 3:8
Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of penance; and do not begin to say, We have Abraham for our father. For I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children to Abraham.

Luke 5:32
I came not to call the just, but sinners to penance.

Luke 10:13
Woe to thee, Corozain, woe to thee, Bethsaida. For if in Tyre and Sidon had been wrought the mighty works that have been wrought in you, they would have done penance long ago, sitting in sackcloth and ashes.

Luke 11:32
The men of Ninive shall rise in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it; because they did penance at the preaching of Jonas; and behold more than Jonas here.

Luke 13:3
No, I say to you: but unless you shall do penance, you shall all likewise perish.

Luke 13:5
No, I say to you; but except you do penance, you shall all likewise perish.

Luke 15:7
I say to you, that even so there shall be joy in heaven upon one sinner that doth penance, more than upon ninety-nine just who need not penance.

Luke 15:10
So I say to you, there shall be joy before the angels of God upon one sinner doing penance.

Luke 16:30
But he said: No, father Abraham: but if one went to them from the dead, they will do penance.

Luke 17:3
Take heed to yourselves. If thy brother sin against thee, reprove him: and if he do penance, forgive him.

Luke 24:47
And that penance and remission of sins should be preached in his name, unto all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Acts Of Apostles 2:38
But Peter said to them: Do penance, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of your sins: and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts Of Apostles 8:22
Do penance therefore for this thy wickedness; and pray to God, that perhaps this thought of thy heart may be forgiven thee.

Acts Of Apostles 13:24
John first preaching, before his coming, the baptism of penance to all the people of Israel.

Acts Of Apostles 17:30
And God indeed having winked at the times of this ignorance, now declareth unto men, that all should everywhere do penance.

Acts Of Apostles 19:4
Then Paul said: John baptized the people with the baptism of penance, saying: That they should believe in him who was to come after him, that is to say, in Jesus.

Acts Of Apostles 20:21
Testifying both to Jews and Gentiles penance towards God, and faith in our Lord Jesus Christ.

Acts Of Apostles 26:20
But to them first that are at Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and unto all the country of Judea, and to the Gentiles did I preach, that they should do penance, and turn to God, doing works worthy of penance.

Romans 2:4
Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness, and patience, and longsuffering? Knowest thou not, that the benignity of God leadeth thee to penance?

:compcoff: Link: drbo.org/cgi-bin/s?q=penance&b=drb&t=0&p=100​

. . . all for Jesus+
. . . thank You Sweet Spirit of our Holy God+
. . . thank you Blessed Holy Mother Church+​
 
. . . :coffeeread: . . .
THE HOLY :bible1: BIBLE
Douay Rheims Version

NEW :bible1: TESTAMENT PENANCE SCRIPTURES (continued)

2 Corinthians 7:9
Now I am glad: not because you were made sorrowful; but because you were made sorrowful unto penance. For you were made sorrowful according to God, that you might suffer damage by us in nothing.

2 Corinthians 7:10
For the sorrow that is according to God worketh penance, steadfast unto salvation; but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

2 Corinthians 12:21
Lest again, when I come, God humble me among you: and I mourn many of them that sinned before, and have not done penance for the uncleanness, and fornication, and lasciviousness, that they have committed.

Hebrews 6:1
Wherefore leaving the word of the beginning of Christ, let us go on to things more perfect, not laying again the foundation of penance from dead works, and of faith towards God,

Hebrews 6:6
And are fallen away: to be renewed again to penance, crucifying again to themselves the Son of God, and making him a mockery.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord delayeth not his promise, as some imagine, but dealeth patiently for your sake, not willing that any should perish, but that all should return to penance.

Apocalypse (Revelation) 2:5
Be mindful therefore from whence thou art fallen: and do penance, and do the first works. Or else I come to thee, and will move thy candlestick out of its place, except thou do penance.

Apocalypse (Revelation) 2:16
In like manner do penance: if not, I will come to thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.

Apocalypse (Revelation) 2:21
And I gave her a time that she might do penance, and she will not repent of her fornication.

Apocalypse (Revelation) 2:22
Behold, I will cast her into a bed: and they that commit adultery with her shall be in very great tribulation, except they do penance from their deeds.

Apocalypse (Revelation) 3:3
Have in mind therefore in what manner thou hast received and heard: and observe, and do penance. If then thou shalt not watch, I will come to thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know at what hour I will come to thee.

Apocalypse (Revelation) 3:19
Such as I love, I rebuke and chastise. Be zealous therefore, and do penance.

Apocalypse (Revelation) 9:20
And the rest of the men, who were not slain by these plagues, did not do penance from the works of their hands, that they should not adore devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and wood, which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:

Apocalypse (Revelation) 9:21
Neither did they penance from their murders, nor from their sorceries, nor from their fornication, nor from their thefts.

Apocalypse (Revelation) 16:9
And men were scorched with great heat, and they blasphemed the name of God, who hath power over these plagues, neither did they penance to give him glory.

Apocalypse (Revelation) 16:11
And they blasphemed the God of heaven, because of their pains and wounds, and did not penance for their works.​

:bible1:
But wilt thou
know,
O vain man,
that faith without works is dead?
******- James 2:20

As revealed by the abundance of Sacred :bible1: Scripture above using the holy term “penance” . . . the full complete . . . spiritual . . . definition and meaning of the term penance indicates a profound change which affects the entire life of the individual soul involved . . . and involves the reaction of the whole of the person . . . body, soul and spirit . . .

Penance defined thus is . . .

. . . :idea: . . .
repentance (change)
within the heart ❤️ of the soul **
combined and revealed**
through outward actions
which are an outward sign indicating
the truth of the profound inward spiritual change/repentance
which has occurred within the soul . . .

:compcoff: VAST Number of Old Testament Penance Scriptures Link: drbo.org/cgi-bin/s?q=penance&b=drb&t=1

. . . all for Jesus+
. . . thank You Sweet Spirit of our Holy God+
. . . thank you Blessed Holy Mother Church+​
 
Thanks for the info… Of course, the replies consist of things like:

“Divine Justice was poured out on Jesus Christ on the Cross…the payment has been made…my debt paid.
The sinner may repent of their sin and turn to the King who has taken our lashes and received my nails…suffered in my place. There is a cost to sin and sin does cause suffering and death….but our dept to God has been cleared the ultimate penance has been made and it was once for all who believe.”

and

“Jesus sets men free from a religion of effort and works. Grace has broken the bondage of merit.”

and

“In short, penance is a counterfeit repentance. It is the work of man on his body; true repentance is the work of God in the soul.”

and

“If you are truly sorry about your sins you don’t repeat them…there is no need for penance.”

I would love to hear some ideas on countering these, especially the “debt paid in full” theology.
 
Cattitude said:
Thanks for the info… Of course, the replies consist of things like:

“Divine Justice was poured out on Jesus Christ on the Cross…the payment has been made…my debt paid.
The sinner may repent of their sin and turn to the King who has taken our lashes and received my nails…suffered in my place. There is a cost to sin and sin does cause suffering and death….but our dept to God has been cleared the ultimate penance has been made and it was once for all who believe.”

and

“Jesus sets men free from a religion of effort and works. Grace has broken the bondage of merit.”

and

“In short, penance is a counterfeit repentance. It is the work of man on his body; true repentance is the work of God in the soul.”

and

“If you are truly sorry about your sins you don’t repeat them…there is no need for penance.”

I would love to hear some ideas on countering these, especially the “debt paid in full” theology.
Click to expand...
Of course he would have to show us which man has never sin again after he repented. Remember we sin in our thoughts, words and deeds.

Does he really believe that we are sinners anymore? just by being in a different religion it already living in sin because it is disobedience to Christ not being in His Church.

In todays world where people are getting divorce left and right, free sex for all and many other things. Doesnt he believe that these are sins?

His problem is that he denies sin in the world we living and sins of man.

Jesus never said that we are going to be free from sin. ON the contrary, He went on to say that if we even look at another person with lust, we have already committed a sin.

Besides Jesus did not have to touch every subject. He came to the Jews who already knew God s laws. Looking at the Jews, we can see that they also did penance in trying to get Mercy from God. Just read Lamentations.

Your friend cannot know sins, unless the Holy Church of God points out to us.
 
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