Where did Martin Luther and John Calvin disagree?

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TriuneUnity said:
Not an issue of force at all, really. God’s work in our lives frees our souls from bondage and we willingly choose Him. God works through means…Word and Sacrament…to call His people to Himself. Yes, this is predestined from before the foundation of the world, but honestly, Mickey…predestination is given in Scripture to comfort those who are God’s people; that they may know that He has done all that is necessary to insure their salvation and Satan can never take it from them. It is NOT meant to stir us intellectually and seek to reach into the heavens into the hidden will of God and figure out His plans.

We are to look at the reality of God’s grace and predestinating love in the cross of Christ and nowhere else.
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That sounds like Luther talking. I agree there is a hidden will of God that we cannot know. However, predestination to salvation as a gift of grace given to some and not to others isn’t something Luther would have denied. He simply didn’t develop his theology far beyond that point. God has two characteristics relevant to this topic – mercy and justice. Luther had a hard time reconciling one with the other (evidenced by his inability to find consistency between the epistle of James and the rest of Scripture – terming it the epistle of straw).

Augustine and Calvin did a wonderful job with this complex topic.
 
Mickey said:
I think Augustine and Calvin were terribly off base. 🤷
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You might want to read St. Prosper of Aquitaine’s, The Call of All Nations.

It is a fascinating work 🙂 which you can preview both at Google books and at Amazon.🙂 🙂

books.google.com/books?id=80vmHohxl9gC&printsec=frontcover&dq=%22call+of+all+nations%22+aquitaine&sig=ACfU3U2F0Nfn1KDtOX0N9wwvdqMA-vCfLA#PPP7,M1

amazon.com/14-St-Prosper-Aquitaine-Christian/dp/0809102536/ref=sr_11_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1219350343&sr=11-1

ISBN 0809102536
 
Mickey said:
I’m sorry. I thought you knew I was Orthodox.

Fair enough. I strongly disagree with you and I humbly attempt to provide my reasoning.
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Great. I also agree this is not an area Christians should be fighting over. However, it is an interesting topic all the same & one that really pushes us to learn Scripture (whatever side of this debate we stand on). Here’s some passages I think support the doctrine:

I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances. (Ezekiel 36:26-27).

“This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel
after that time,” declares the LORD.
"I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people (Jeremiah 31:33).

What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory (Romans 9:22-23).

The LORD has made everything for its own purpose,
Even the wicked for the day of evil (Proverbs 16:4).

God forms the elect as a potter forms his clay:

One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?” But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’ " Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use? (Romans 9:19-21).

“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you,
before you were born I set you apart;
I appointed you as a prophet to the nations” (Jeremiah 1:5).

Your eyes have seen my unformed substance;
And in Your book were all written
The days that were ordained for me,
When as yet there was not one of them (Psalm 139:16).

"Since his days are determined,
The number of his months is with You;
And his limits You have set so that he cannot pass (Job 14:5).

For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will (Ephesians 1:4-5).

But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth (2 Thessalonians 2:13).

When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed (Acts 13:48).

for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure (Philippians 2:13).

But the LORD hardened Pharaoh’s heart, and he would not let the Israelites go (Exodus 10:20).

If it’s any conciliation I used to be ardently Arminian and a strong proponent of absolute free will. However, the more I studied this issue the more I came around to Calvin and Augustine’s perspective.
 
sola_scriptura said:
If it’s any conciliation I used to be ardently Arminian and a strong proponent of absolute free will. However, the more I studied this issue the more I came around to Calvin and Augustine’s perspective.
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Then you too should read this.

This is a very important work which has, until now, never before been translated into English.🙂 👍
 
Mickey said:
Amen.
Exactly. It is a great mystery. It is enough to know that God bestows His grace upon us and we are free to choose to participate in that grace.
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It is. And it is enough to say that the only reason I participate in that grace is God has given it to me. I have nothing inherent in my nature that allowed me to do so.
 
sola_scriptura said:
That sounds like Luther talking. I agree there is a hidden will of God that we cannot know. However, predestination to salvation as a gift of grace given to some and not to others isn’t something Luther would have denied. He simply didn’t develop his theology far beyond that point. God has two characteristics relevant to this topic – mercy and justice. Luther had a hard time reconciling one with the other (evidenced by his inability to find consistency between the epistle of James and the rest of Scripture – terming it the epistle of straw).

Augustine and Calvin did a wonderful job with this complex topic.
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Because it is not our place to go beyond what has been revealed to us by the Spirit in His word.
 
raumzeitmc2 said:
Then you too should read this.

This is a very important work which has, until now, never before been translated into English.🙂 👍
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I read the Wiki entry for this man (who was an ardent Augustinian) and some of the Google book & it confirms Augustine held the view of double predestination; and believed God was both first cause for our faith and final cause for our perseverance. Augustine did later say we have free will, capitulating to detractors. However, before he conceded this point (under immense pressure I might add) his views left little room for free will in the economy of salvation. He attributed everything to divine providence. In fact he felt strongly that attributing any part of our salvation to ourselves is arrogance, self-pride, and boasting.
 
sola_scriptura said:
I read the Wiki entry for this man (who was an ardent Augustinian) and some of the Google book & it confirms Augustine held the view of double predestination; and believed God was both first cause for our faith and final cause for our perseverance. Augustine did later say we have free will, capitulating to detractors. However, before he conceded this point (under immense pressure I might add) his views left little room for free will in the economy of salvation. He attributed everything to divine providence. In fact he felt strongly that attributing any part of our salvation to ourselves is arrogance, self-pride, and boasting.
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Well, Sola, no offense, but it sounds to me like you are just not too familiar with Augustine (not that I’m claiming to be an expert myself, btw)😉 . But just listen to what the saintly bishop says here.
The Apostle also says: I could not speak to you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal; as unto little ones in Christ I gave you milk to drink, not meat: for you were not able as yet; but neither indeed are you now able. 1 Cor 3.1.
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What is the drift of these words? This: since we realize that the Last Day will come- it is well for us that we know it will come, and it is also well that we do not know when – we must keep our hearts in readiness by leading a good life, so that far from fearing its advent, we may even desire it.
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For as that day increases the woe of the unfaithful, so it puts an end to that of the faithful.
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As yet, before it comes, you have the power to decide which class you will belong to; once it has come, this will be beyond you. Choose, therefore, while there is time; for what God in His mercy conceals, He in mercy delays.
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First Discourse on Psalm 36.

There’s more to say, but I’ve got to run now. If you respond, it won’t be until latter or tomorrow before I can reply reply. Otherwise, I hope that helped.

Peace.
…two things, you see, that kill souls, either despair or wrongheaded hope.
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St. Augustine, Sermon 87:10:2,
 
sola_scriptura said:
They reject the Gospel because they were not predestined to salvation.
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To clarify our exact belief in this current predestination topic (by the way, Mickey, and Sola, you’ve been awesome to discuss this with. Your Christian attitudes are a shining example of the kind of dialogue that Christ commands of us and is a good reflection of the churches we belong to). From the WELS statement:

“We believe that already before the world was created, God chose those individuals whom he would in time convert through the gospel of Christ and preserve in faith to eternal life (Ephesians 1:4-6, Romans 8:29-30). This election to faith and salvation in no way was caused by anything in people but shows how completely salvation is by grace alone (Romans 11:5-6).”

“We reject every teaching that people in any way contribute to their salvation. We reject the belief that people with their own power can cooperate in their conversion or make a decision for Christ (John 15:16). We reject the belief that those who are converted were less resistant to God’s grace than those who remain unconverted. We reject all efforts to present faith as a condition people must fulfill to complete their justification. We reject all attempts of sinners to justify themselves before God.”

“We reject the false and blasphemous conclusion that those who are lost were predestined, or elected, by God to damnation, for God wants all people to be saved (1Timothy 2:4, 2 Peter 3:9).”

Please note that the Wisconsin Synod of the Lutheran Church teaches predestination to salvation alone. Predestination to damnation is rejected. Predestination is based on God’s grace alone. There was nothing in any human being that would cause God to choose him. The Wisconsin Synod teaches universal atonement (Christ died for the sins of all). God also desires the salvation of every sinner. We do not try to rationalize why some are saved and not others in a way that is satisfying to human reason. We believe that if a person is saved it is all to God’s credit. If a person is lost, it is completely that person’s fault.
 
raumzeitmc2 said:
Well, Sola, no offense, but it sounds to me like you are just not too familiar with Augustine (not that I’m claiming to be an expert myself, btw)😉 . But just listen to what the saintly bishop says here.

First Discourse on Psalm 36.

There’s more to say, but I’ve got to run now. If you respond, it won’t be until latter or tomorrow before I can reply reply. Otherwise, I hope that helped.

Peace.
St. Augustine, Sermon 87:10:2,
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Indeed – however, Augustine would also say that these were predestined. That God is not only first cause for our faith but also the cause for our perseverance. I will elaborate on this later, but first more from Augustine and the Council of Carthage:

Clearly Augustine did believe in double predestination:

*Chapter 11 [VI.]—That Some Men are Elected is of God’s Mercy.

“Many hear the word of truth; but some believe, while others contradict. Therefore, the former will to believe; the latter do not will.” Who does not know this? Who can deny this? But since in some the will is prepared by the Lord, in others it is not prepared, we must assuredly be able to distinguish what comes from God’s mercy, and what from His judgment.*

ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf105.xxi.ii.xi.html

Chapter 16.—Why the Gift of Faith is Not Given to All.

Faith, then, as well in its beginning as in its completion, is God’s gift; and let no one have any doubt whatever, unless he desires to resist the plainest sacred writings, that this gift is given to some, while to some it is not given. But why it is not given to all ought not to disturb the believer, who believes that from one all have gone into a condemnation, which undoubtedly is most righteous; so that even if none were delivered therefrom, there would be no just cause for finding fault with God. Whence it is plain that it is a great grace for many to be delivered, and to acknowledge in those that are not delivered what would be due to themselves; so that he that glorieth may glory not in his own merits, which he sees to be equalled in those that are condemned, but in the Lord. But why He delivers one rather than another,—“His judgments are unsearchable, and His ways past finding out.”

ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf105.xxi.ii.xvi.html

These are Augustine’s words. The good Saint clearly affirmed the scriptural doctrine of double predestination, in no uncertain words. The following is excerpts from the Council of Carthage where the heresies of Pelagius were condemned and some elements of Augustine’s doctrine of grace were adopted by the church.

COUNCIL OF CARTHAGE (relevant canons):

*Can. 3.2 “If any man says that the grace of God, by which man is justified through Jesus Christ, is only effectual for the forgiveness of sins already committed, but is of no avail for avoiding sin in the future, let him be anathema.”

Can. 4 “If any man says that this grace only helps not to sin, in so far that by it we obtain a better insight into the Divine commands, and learn what we should desire and avoid, but does not also give the power gladly to do and to fulfil what we have seen to be good, let him be anathema.”

Can. 5 “If any man says that the grace of justification was given us in order that we might the more easily fulfil that which we are bound to do by the power of free will, so that we could, even without grace, only not so easily, fulfil the Divine commands, let him be anathema.”*

seanmultimedia.com/Pie_Council_Of_Carthage_May_1_418.html (link provided at: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Councils_of_Carthage)).

*Pursuant to the papal command, there was held on 1 May, 418, in the presence of 200 bishops, the famous Council of Carthage, which again branded Pelagianism as a heresy in eight (or nine) canons (Denzinger, “Enchir.”, 10th ed., 1908, 101-8). Owing to their importance they may be summarized:
  1. Death did not come to Adam from a physical necessity, but through sin.
  2. New-born children must be baptized on account of original sin.
  3. Justifying grace not only avails for the forgiveness of past sins, but also gives assistance for the avoidance of future sins.
  4. The grace of Christ not only discloses the knowledge of God’s commandments, but also imparts strength to will and execute them.
  5. Without God’s grace it is not merely more difficult, but absolutely impossible to perform good works.
  6. Not out of humility, but in truth must we confess ourselves to be sinners.
  7. The saints refer the petition of the Our Father, “Forgive us our trespasses”, not only to others, but also to themselves.
  8. The saints pronounce the same supplication not from mere humility, but from truthfulness.
  9. Some codices containing a ninth canon (Denzinger, loc. cit., note 3): Children dying without baptism do not go to a “middle place” (medius locus), since the non reception of baptism excludes both from the “kingdom of heaven” and from “eternal life”.
These clearly worded canons, which (except the last-named) afterwards came to be articles of faith binding on the universal Church, gave the death blow to Pelagianism; sooner or later it would bleed to death.*

newadvent.org/cathen/11604a.htm
 
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