Where did Martin Luther and John Calvin disagree?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Jimmy_B
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Mickey said:
Everything God made, including man, is very good, because God is good. Nothing He made is therefore evil in itself. So then human nature is good in itself. But sin is a free choice of man’s will, and it is contrary both to God’s nature and human nature.
Click to expand...
The Fall changed human nature from one of spiritual unity and life with God into a spiritually dead enemy of God; therefore, it’s only inclination is to sin and the human will, also having been corrupted, gladly goes along with it. He is powerless to turn himself toward God due to his condition. To say man’s nature is good apart from God’s saving grace is to undermine the necessity of it. I understand where you’re coming from here, but there is too much in the sacred writings that contradict the notion of a libertarian will.
 
b_justb said:
Well, Calvin was a Yellow Mustard guy and Luther was a staunch supporter of Grey Poupon.
Click to expand...
As an expert on Luther and Calvin, my friend, you have this sorely reversed. Calvin was French, hence early sources indicate he was actually the Poupon person, whereas Luther enjoyed many a dish of schnitzel and mustard layered kinishes.
 
sola_scriptura said:
I see you have quite a distaste for Calvin
Click to expand...
It was a joke by Martin Luther (I think it was a joke). Chill out bro. 😃
sola_scriptura said:
since to argue against this idea is to argue with the overwhelming preponderance of Scripture.
Click to expand...
Again, I disagree. I am very happy knowing that God has foreknowledge and man has free will. And I believe that Sacred Scripture supports the Orthodox view.

Predestination means God’s pre-assigning of each person to either be saved or lost. Orthodox say this is based only on God’s foreknowledge (Rom 8:29) that the one would make a right use of his free will and the other a wrong; this is the only explanation proposed by anyone until the year A.D. 400. Non-Orthodox with the “severe” view on predestination believe we have no say in this assignment, a view developed by Augustine, who was the first to question free will.
 
TriuneUnity said:
The Fall changed human nature from one of spiritual unity and life with God into a spiritually dead enemy of God; therefore, it’s only inclination is to sin and the human will, also having been corrupted, gladly goes along with it. He is powerless to turn himself toward God due to his condition. To say man’s nature is good apart from God’s saving grace is to undermine the necessity of it. I understand where you’re coming from here, but there is too much in the sacred writings that contradict the notion of a libertarian will.
Click to expand...
“Then God saw everything He had made and indeed it was very good.”

Sorry friend. The fall does not eliminate our free will or make us the spiritually dead enemy of God.
 
Triune:

You beat me to the punch. I know Mickey is EOC – I wonder if the RCC takes his view as well?

Mickey, consider the following verses regarding depravity:

*What shall we conclude then? Are we any better? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin (Romans 3:9).

for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23).

Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned (Romans 5:12).

I put this in human terms because you are weak in your natural selves. Just as you used to offer the parts of your body in slavery to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer them in slavery to righteousness leading to holiness (Romans 6:19).

All of us have become like one who is unclean,
and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags;
we all shrivel up like a leaf,
and like the wind our sins sweep us away (Isaiah 64:6)

“There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end
thereof are the ways of deat.” (Proverbs 14:12).
“For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries,
fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies” (Matthew 15:19).
 
TriuneUnity said:
As an expert on Luther and Calvin, my friend, you have this sorely reversed. Calvin was French, hence early sources indicate he was actually the Poupon person, whereas Luther enjoyed many a dish of schnitzel and mustard layered kinishes.
Click to expand...
I am sorry, but I have done extensive research on the matter. I merely forgot to mention that Calvin loved French’s Yellow Mustard.
 
Mickey said:
“Then God saw everything He had made and indeed it was very good.”

Sorry friend. The fall does not eliminate our free will or make us the spiritually dead enemy of God.
Click to expand...
Well, I will add these verses to the collection I already provided:

**the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be (Romans 8:7).

But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned (1 Corinthians 2:14).**
 
Mickey said:
“Then God saw everything He had made and indeed it was very good.”

Sorry friend. The fall does not eliminate our free will or make us the spiritually dead enemy of God.
Click to expand...
Rom 8:6-7: For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot.

Eph 2:1-3: And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience.

Eph 2:12: remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.

1 Cor. 2:14: The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

Rom 3:10-18: as it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one. Their throat is an open grave; they use their tongues to deceive. The venom of asps is under their lips. Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness. Their feet are swift to shed blood; in their paths are ruin and misery, and the way of peace they have not known. There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

Rom 5:12: Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned.

John 3:19: And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil.

John 6:53: So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. (If this doesnt show spiritual death apart from Christ I dont know what does)

This doesn’t say much positive about the moral free will of unregenerate man after the Fall.
 
sola_scriptura said:
Triune:

You beat me to the punch. I know Mickey is EOC – I wonder if the RCC takes his view as well?
Click to expand...
I think the RCC is more Augustinian in its view of original sin. They fall short of Scripture because of their Semi-Pelagian tendencies.
 
sola_scriptura said:
Mickey, consider the following
Click to expand...
I have considered these verses many times. You throw them out as if they support your (and Calvin’s) view. I will try to respond to each verse–but it will take much work and I do not know if I have that kind of time. I have already responded to many of these in other threads. You and Triune keep peppering me with verses–but your interpretation is skewed by reformed theology. I will respond to Triune’s verses first.
 
Mickey said:
I have considered these verses many times. You throw them out as if they support your (and Calvin’s) view. I will try to respond to each verse–but it will take much work and I do not know if I have that kind of time. I have already responded to many of these in other threads. You and Triune keep peppering me with verses–but your interpretation is skewed by reformed theology. I will respond to Triune’s verses first.
Click to expand...
It doesn’t have anything to do with Reformed theology (as I dont adhere to Reformed theology), it’s just the plain meaning of the texts! 😛

Sorry if you feel you’re being peppered with verses but since we base our theology of man’s depravity on Scripture, we’re going to use scriptural support for it.
 
TriuneUnity said:
Rom 8:6-7: For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot.
Click to expand...
To be carnally minded (v.6) means to choose to have one’s whole being captivated by sin. This decision against God puts us at enmity with Him (v.7), and thus we have no lasting peace. To be spiritually minded means to accept liberation by the Spirit, so that one’s whole being—body, mind, and soul—becomes directed by and is led to the Holy Spirit.
OSB
 
TriuneUnity said:
Eph 2:1-3: And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience.
Click to expand...
Two unequal kingdoms are at war. Each is spiritual in nature; each stamps its image on its subjects and requires strict obedience. Yet they are opposites. The king of the lesser realm is a created being, Satan. His domain is of the air (v.2), neither fully on earth nor of heaven. He is the author of disobedience (v.2), rebellion. The beginning of his rule is spiritual death (v.1). The desires of his subjects are lustful, of the flesh and of the mind (v.3). Their deeds are trespasses and sins (v.1). The result of his rule is wrath (v.3), and hence eternal death.

The King of the other Kingdom is uncreated, God the Father (v.4). His realm is the heavenly places (v.6). He rules by mercy and love (v.4). The beginning of His rule is redemption to eternal life (v.5).
OSB
 
Mickey said:
To be carnally minded (v.6) means to choose to have one’s whole being captivated by sin. This decision against God puts us at enmity with Him (v.7), and thus we have no lasting peace. To be spiritually minded means to accept liberation by the Spirit, so that one’s whole being—body, mind, and soul—becomes directed by and is led to the Holy Spirit.
OSB
Click to expand...
And Scripture teaches that man is born into this condition and it is his natural state. The argument is not that man doesn’t choose to be captivated by sin; but that he will always choose to be captivated by sin, because he is a slave to sin.
 
Mickey said:
Two unequal kingdoms are at war. Each is spiritual in nature; each stamps its image on its subjects and requires strict obedience. Yet they are opposites. The king of the lesser realm is a created being, Satan. His domain is of the air (v.2), neither fully on earth nor of heaven. He is the author of disobedience (v.2), rebellion. The beginning of his rule is spiritual death (v.1). The desires of his subjects are lustful, of the flesh and of the mind (v.3). Their deeds are trespasses and sins (v.1). The result of his rule is wrath (v.3), and hence eternal death.

The King of the other Kingdom is uncreated, God the Father (v.4). His realm is the heavenly places (v.6). He rules by mercy and love (v.4). The beginning of His rule is redemption to eternal life (v.5).
OSB
Click to expand...
You mentioned this interpretation and it is one I agree with. However, the stamp of Satan’s kingdom is placed on us at conception because we are born slaves to sin and Satan’s kingdom, which Ephesians 2 demonstrates.
 
TriuneUnity said:
Eph 2:12: remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.
Click to expand...
Since salvation involves the renewal of all mankind in Christ, the old distinction between Jew and Gentile no longer exists. This ethnic distinction was based on the flesh (v.11), the Gentiles being uncircumcised and the Jews being circumcised. While Israel was especially blessed by God (v.12), both Jews and Gentiles had to become true Israel (se v. v 13-18)
OSB
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top