Where did Martin Luther and John Calvin disagree?

[TriuneUnity]

I have considered these verses many times. You throw them out as if they support your (and Calvin’s) view. I will try to respond to each verse–but it will take much work and I do not know if I have that kind of time. I have already responded to many of these in other threads. You and Triune keep peppering me with verses–but your interpretation is skewed by reformed theology. I will respond to Triune’s verses first.

Since sola_scriptura and I sometimes agree and disagree lol, for lack of confusion I do want to clear up where we agree and differ for sake of furthering the discussion. I’ll use the Calvinist acrostic, TULIP:

Total Depravity: Man is born dead in sin, unable to work righteousness of his own free will; is in bondage to Satan; this depravity affects him totally; meaning mind, spirit, and will are all touched by sin. Lutherans agree with this teaching 100% without qualification.

Unconditional Election: That God has, from before time, chosen in Christ who will be saved; conversely, God has also elected some men to damnation. Lutherans agree that if one is a receipient of salvation it is wholly the work of monergistic grace and was predestined to occur. We do not, however, believe that God has elected any to damnation; they freely reject God’s sincere offer of grace and are condemned.

Limited Atonement: That Christ has made full and sufficient atonement only for those for whom God predestined salvation. Hence, only the elect will have Christ’s redemption applied to them. Lutherans reject this teaching emphatically and believe that Christ made atonement for all men of all times and all places.

Irresistable Grace: That God calls inwardly with saving grace through the Word to the elect and the elect only. The reprobate do not receive an inward call of grace, only the outward call. The elect will, in time, always be regenerated by this grace. Lutherans believe, through Word and Sacrament, God offers saving grace to all who hear the Gospel. The elect will always be regenerated by this grace. The non-elect may also be regenerated by this grace but will either immediately or some time in the future, resist this grace and either fall from faith or never accept it. This is solely the responsibility of the man and has nothing to do with God’s will to not save them.

Perseverence of the Saints: That God will preserve His remnant to the end. Though they may struggle and fall for a time, they will called back by the gospel to repentance and faith. Lutherans believe the elect can be assured of their salvation; however, since the non-elect may also be justified for a time, they may fall from the faith finally and totally.

 

[TriuneUnity]

Poppycock! We are created good.

Adam and Eve were created good. Psalm 51 says the opposite about us after the Fall. If we are created good, then there is no need for us to have a Savior; All we need is a little moral help.

 

[Mickey]

Since sola_scriptura and I sometimes agree and disagree lol, for lack of confusion I do want to clear up where we agree and differ for sake of furthering the discussion. I’ll use the Calvinist acrostic, TULIP:

So you only agree with total depravity.

 

[TriuneUnity]

So you only agree with total depravity.

Without qualification. We agree with some of the U, the I and the P, but we disagree enough not to accept the teaching as Calvinists do. We do not even use those terms aside from depravity and it’s mostly alien to Lutheran theology. It is, however, helpful for comparison.

 

[Mickey]

If we are created good, then there is no need for us to have a Savior;

We are inherently good. Created in the image of God. We are born into a sinful world and subject to the passions. We inherit nothing from Adam–we are not responsible for Adam’s sin. But we are subject to the consequences of that original sin—which is death. Through the grace of God–we fight the good fight-- and we have free will to accept and participate in that grace–hence the ongoing process of deification (theosis).

Of course this will now start big arguments with the Roman Catholics.

 

[raumzeitmc2]

Of course Augustine spoke more like a Catholic – there were few men in history quite as Catholic as Augustine (I never suggested otherwise). In fact I’m chuckling a little bit trying to imagine anyone saying Augustine was anything but 1000% Roman Catholic.

Did I also mention that he believed in Sacred Tradition?

As to the first man, the father of mankind, it is agreed by almost the entire Church that the Lord loosed him from that prison; a tenet which must be believed to have been accepted not without reason,—from whatever source it was handed down to the Church,—although the authority of the canonical Scriptures cannot be brought forward as speaking expressly in its support,[6] though this seems to be the opinion which is more than any other borne out by these words in the book of Wisdom.

Letter 164:6
en.wikisource.org/wiki/Nicene_and_Post-Nicene_Fathers:_Series_I/Volume_I/Letters_of_St._Augustin/Letters_of_St._Augustin/Chapter_133

Indeed as a Bishop he was celibate – however, in his younger years he was quite the ladies man

Odd that the reformers didn’t take a clue from that!

Certainly I would also not say Augustine did not place a high value on the Sacraments – he did. However, it is in the area of soteriology that John Calvin found significant common ground with Augustine – predestination and grace.

I would say that Calvin took the most extreme opinions (for that is what they are until the Church makes a final pronouncement) he could find in Augustine, magnified them, and then created his frightful system.

Check out this comment from Calvin, and the Council of Orange (from Wikiquote), and then compare and contrast them with my notes from Augustine.

All things being at God’s disposal, and the decision of salvation or death belonging to him, he orders all things by his counsel and decree in such a manner, that some men are born devoted from the womb to certain death, that his name may be glorified in their destruction.

In John Allen, ed., Institutes of the Christian Religion. Ioannis Calvini Institutio Christianae religionis (Philadelphia: Presbyterian Board of Publication, 1841), p. 169

This doctrine, that God creates some men in order to damn them, was explicitly rejected by the Council of Orange in A.D. 529. The Bishops wrote:

“We not only do not believe that any are foreordained to evil by the power of God, but even state with utter abhorrence that if there are those who want to believe so evil a thing, they are anathema.”

en.wikiquote.org/wiki/John_Calvin

And now Augustine:

“you are unhappy because you are being dragged to salvation, though you have dragged so many of our people to destruction.” Letter 173:1 to Donatus, a priest of the Donatist sect who attempted to kill himself.

“for who does not know that a human being is only condemned by the merit of a bad will and is only set free if he has a good will?” Letter 173:2, p. 125

“But placed outside the Church and separated from the structure of unity and the bond of love, you will suffer eternal punishment even if you are burned alive for the name of Christ.” Letter 173:6 OUCH! (Happily, the Church rejects this particular aspect of Augustine’s teaching, although, technically, he is correct, because the Church is Christ, and Christ can hardly be separated from himself).

“The authors of this most destructive heresy are said to be Pelagius and Caelestius, whom we of course prefer to be healed in the Church rather than to be cut off from the Church with no hope of salvation, if no necessity demands this.” 176:4, p. 139

“Yet many more, who were able to investigate more carefully what he meant, fight against him on behalf of the grace of Christ and the truth of the Catholic faith, but especially your holy son and our brother and fellow priest, Jerome.” 174:4, p. 139

“For by their damnable arguments these heretics [the Pelagians] strive, not by defending free choice but rather by extolling it in sacrilegious pride, to leave no room for the grace of God by which we are Christians –the grace by which the very *choice of our will becomes truly free *when it is set free from the dominion of carnal desires. For the Lord says, *If the Son sets you free, then you will be truly free *(Jn 8:36).

Faith in Jesus Christ our Lord obtains this help. But these heretics claim, as we have learned from some brothers who have also read their books, that the grace of God should be regarded as the way in which God established and created the nature of man such that it can by its own will fulfill the law of God, whether it be the law written by nature in the heart of the law given in writing. They hold that this same law also pertains to the grace of God because God gave it to human beings as a help. (Note 4: see Is 8:20 LXX).” Letter 175:2, p. 135

“The do not want to acknowledge that grace by which, as was said, we are Christians. The apostle preached that grace when he said, For I take delight in the law of God in terms of my inner self, but I see another law in my members that resists the law of my mind and that holds me captive under the law of sin that is in my members. Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from this body of death? The grace of God through Jesus Christ our Lord. ( Rom 7:22-25). But they dare not attack it openly.” Letter 175:3, p. 135.

“A new and very dangerous heresy on the part of the enemies of the grace of Christ is attempting to rise up. By their impious arguments these people try to deprive us even of the Lord’s Prayer. For, though the Lord taught us to say, Forgive us our debts as we also forgive our debtors (Mt 6:12), they say in that in this life a human being can, once the commandments are known, come to so great a perfection of righteousness by free choice of the will alone, without the help of the grace of the savior, that it is not necessary for them to say, Forgive us our debts.

They claim we should not interpret the words that follow, *Bring us not into temptation *(Mt 6:13), in the sense that we ought to ask God’s help so that we may not fall into sin when we are tempted, but that this has been place in our power and that the human will alone suffices to carry this out.” Letter 176:2, pp. 138-139

“To omit, therefore, the many other things that they utter against the holy scriptures, we for the present single out the two points by which they strive to completely to overthrow the whole Christian faith and which are the support of faithful hearts.

“They say we should not ask God to be* our helper *to resist the evil of sin and to act with righteousness.

And they say that the sacrament of Christian grace does not help infants to attain eternal life.” Letter 176:3, p. 139.

 

[Mickey]

1 Cor. 2:14: The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

Enlightenment from God in itself is beyond all words, and even beyond evaluation by other men (v.15). Nevertheless, the Holy Spirit speaks through spiritual people words that truly reflect the unspeakable knowledge of faith. This language of faith in turn leads spiritually minded people to know God better, although it baffles the natural man (v. 14).
OSB

 

[Mickey]

3:10-18: as it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one. Their throat is an open grave; they use their tongues to deceive. The venom of asps is under their lips. Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness. Their feet are swift to shed blood; in their paths are ruin and misery, and the way of peace they have not known. There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

These quotations from the OT speak to the questions Paul asks in verses 1-9

Rom 5:12: Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned.

For Adam and Eve, sin came first, and this led to death. This death then spread to all men. The rest of humanity inherits death, and then in our mortal state, we all sin. Thus, all mankind suffers the consequences of Adam’s “original sin”. However, the Orthodox Church rejects any teaching that would assign guilt to all mankind for Adam’s sin. We indeed suffer the consequences of others’ sins, but we carry guilt only for our own sins.
OSB

 

[Mickey]

John 3:19: And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil.

While Christ came to save and not to condemn, man has free will. Thus, he can reject this gift, and he becomes condemned by his own rejection.
OSB

 

[Mickey]

John 6:53: So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. (If this doesnt show spiritual death apart from Christ I dont know what does)

You may want to begin a new thread on the Real Presence of our Lord and God and Saviour Jesus Christ in the Holy Eucharist.

 

[sola_scriptura]

Did I also mention that he believed in Sacred Tradition?

Letter 164:6
en.wikisource.org/wiki/Nicene_and_Post-Nicene_Fathers:_Series_I/Volume_I/Letters_of_St._Augustin/Letters_of_St._Augustin/Chapter_133

Odd that the reformers didn’t take a clue from that!

I would say that Calvin took the most extreme opinions (for that is what they are until the Church makes a final pronouncement) he could find in Augustine, magnified them, and then created his frightful system.

Check out this comment from Calvin, and the Council of Orange (from Wikiquote), and then compare and contrast them with my notes from Augustine.

en.wikiquote.org/wiki/John_Calvin

And now Augustine:

“you are unhappy because you are being dragged to salvation, though you have dragged so many of our people to destruction.” Letter 173:1 to Donatus, a priest of the Donatist sect who attempted to kill himself.

“for who does not know that a human being is only condemned by the merit of a bad will and is only set free if he has a good will?” Letter 173:2, p. 125

I will stop here because it is important to elaborate on the points you raise.

First, indeed Augustine did expound upon this will of man – however, he explained that this good will is given by God, while a bad will is one devoid of God’s grace.

*As, therefore, although it is the gift of God to mortify the deeds of the flesh, yet it is required of us, and life is set before us as a reward; so also faith is the gift of God, although when it is said, “If thou believest, thou shalt be saved,” faith is required of us, and salvation is proposed to us as a reward. For these things are both commanded us, and are shown to be God’s gifts, in order that we may understand both that we do them, and that God makes us to do them, as He most plainly says by the prophet Ezekiel. For what is plainer than when He says, “I will cause you to do”? Give heed to that passage of Scripture, and you will see that God promises that He will make them to do those things which He commands to be done. He truly is not silent as to the merits but as to the evil deeds, of those to whom He shows that He is returning good for evil, by the very fact that He causeth them thenceforth to have good works, in causing them to do the divine commands.

       -Augustine, On the Predestination of the Saints 22*

With regard to Calvin, he essentially said the same thing as Augustine; but it is always framed in a harsh manner by his detractors. For instance here’s a quote from Augustine:

**Faith, then, as well in its beginning as in its completion, is God’s gift; and let no one have any doubt whatever, unless he desires to resist the plainest sacred writings, that this gift is given to some, while to some it is not given. But why it is not given to all ought not to disturb the believer, who believes that from one all have gone into a condemnation, which undoubtedly is most righteous; so that even if none were delivered therefrom, there would be no just cause for finding fault with God. Whence it is plain that it is a great grace for many to be delivered, and to acknowledge in those that are not delivered what would be due to themselves; so that he that glorieth may glory not in his own merits, which he sees to be equalled in those that are condemned, but in the Lord.

-Augustine, On the Predestination of the Saints 16**

The underlined text clearly shows that Augustine did not believe saving grace was given universally. He believed some were saved to the exclusion of others. However, he does not say that God is positively responsible for the wickedness of the reprobate. He only states that by not giving the reprobate saving grace they do not and cannot have faith.

Now consider:

**When, therefore, the Father is heard within, and teaches, so that a man comes to the Son, He takes away the heart of stone and gives a heart of flesh, as in the declaration of the prophet He has promised. Because He thus makes them children and vessels of mercy which He has prepared for glory.

-Augustine, On the Predestination of the Saints 13**

Notice the unlined text by Augustine. First, it is God who takes away our heart of stone (devoid of grace we have a heart of stone by default – in other words we are all depraved). Now look at the second set of underlined text. Here Augustine us drawing ideas from Romans 9. Here’s the relevant section from that chapter:

What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory (Romans 9:22-23).

Again Augustine’s words: “He thus makes them children and vessels of mercy which He has prepared for glory.” So it’s easy to see where Augustine drew his idea from. Calvin simply didn’t ignore the preceding verse: “vessels of wrath prepared for destruction” (I would argue Augustine didn’t either, however, there has been some effort IMO on the part of the church to “soften” some of what they view as the “harsher” elements of Augustinian theology).

In “Predestination of the Saints 33” Augustine clearly asserts “Foreordination of the Wicked” – but again the RCC has backtracked on his theology, which they did assent to at the Council of Carthage. Here’s some of the relevant canons adopted by the church at the Council:

*Can. 3.2 “If any man says that the grace of God, by which man is justified through Jesus Christ, is only effectual for the forgiveness of sins already committed, but is of no avail for avoiding sin in the future, let him be anathema.”

Can. 4 “If any man says that this grace only helps not to sin, in so far that by it we obtain a better insight into the Divine commands, and learn what we should desire and avoid, but does not also give the power gladly to do and to fulfil what we have seen to be good, let him be anathema.”

Can. 5 “If any man says that the grace of justification was given us in order that we might the more easily fulfil that which we are bound to do by the power of free will, so that we could, even without grace, only not so easily, fulfil the Divine commands, let him be anathema.”

Can. 6 “If any man understands the words of the Apostle: ‘If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us,’ to mean that we must acknowledge ourselves to be sinners only out of humility, not because we are really such, let him be anathema.”*

 

[TriuneUnity]

You may want to begin a new thread on the Real Presence of our Lord and God and Saviour Jesus Christ in the Holy Eucharist.

Whether you interpret this passage eucharistically or if you interpret it to mean faith in Christ; the result is the same. Unbelievers have no spiritual life in them.

 

[TriuneUnity]

While Christ came to save and not to condemn, man has free will. Thus, he can reject this gift, and he becomes condemned by his own rejection.
OSB

I agree with that. And unless God’s grace actively regenerates the will of man he will always reject.

 

[TriuneUnity]

These quotations from the OT speak to the questions Paul asks in verses 1-9

For Adam and Eve, sin came first, and this led to death. This death then spread to all men. The rest of humanity inherits death, and then in our mortal state, we all sin. Thus, all mankind suffers the consequences of Adam’s “original sin”. However, the Orthodox Church rejects any teaching that would assign guilt to all mankind for Adam’s sin. We indeed suffer the consequences of others’ sins, but we carry guilt only for our own sins.
OSB

Properly speaking original sin is used here not to mean the actual sin that Adam committed. We are not guilty of Adam’s particular sin. Original sin is the result of Adam’s disobedience. It is the curse that God levied against him “you will surely die” both spiritually and physically. A nature that was previously good is turned in on itself and is corrupted to selfishness. This nature manifests itself in the sinful actions we do externally (“out of the heart proceeds all manner of wickedness…” “the heart is wickedly deceitful, who can know it?”). Our hearts are poisoned with the result of the Fall and only God’s grace can change it.

We sin because we are born sinners.

 

[TriuneUnity]

We are inherently good. Created in the image of God. We are born into a sinful world and subject to the passions. We inherit nothing from Adam–we are not responsible for Adam’s sin. But we are subject to the consequences of that original sin—which is death. Through the grace of God–we fight the good fight-- and we have free will to accept and participate in that grace–hence the ongoing process of deification (theosis).

Where in Scripture, post-Fall does it say man is created good and without sin or a sinful nature? The above sounds dangerously Pelagian.

Of course this will now start big arguments with the Roman Catholics.

Well, at least we can both agree they’re wrong LOL

 

[Mickey]

Our hearts are poisoned with the result of the Fall and only God’s grace can change it.
We sin because we are born sinners.

I think I was okay until this part.

God is merciful. God is love. Our hearts are not poisoned. We sin because we are born into a fallen world–with death as the result–subject to the passions. God shines His grace on all. We have free will to accept that grace and strive for virtue in Christ. Or reject that grace unto death.

 

[Mickey]

Where in Scripture, post-Fall does it say man is created good and without sin or a sinful nature?

I do not believe I said anything about sin natures. But we are created good–in the image of God. See Genesis. Are you saying that after the fall–suddenly we are not created good?

Well, at least we can both agree they’re wrong LOL

I will be away for a while. Have a great weekend and may God bless you abundantly!

 

[TriuneUnity]

I think I was okay until this part.

God is merciful. God is love. Our hearts are not poisoned. We sin because we are born into a fallen world–with death as the result–subject to the passions. God shines His grace on all. We have free will to accept that grace and strive for virtue in Christ. Or reject that grace unto death.

God is merciful and God is love but we are not. The problem is not God or His Law, it’s us. Sin is not external only. It all arises from within. Jesus makes it explicitly clear that our sinful passions, desires, wickedness and rebellion originate within us. Not from outside of us. The outside world merely tempts our sinful nature to express itself. I agree that God offers His grace to all through the preaching of His word and the administration of His holy sacraments. We cannot accept that grace unless grace changes our wills first. We love God because He first loved us.

Now, of course, once we are brought into that grace by Word or Baptism, our will can freely obey Christ’s commandments as Christ works in us. It must be stressed here that the deadness in sin and spiritual corruption applies to unbelievers.

 

[TriuneUnity]

I do not believe I said anything about sin natures. But we are created good–in the image of God. See Genesis. Are you saying that after the fall–suddenly we are not created good?

Absolutely. There is none good but God.

I will be away for a while. Have a great weekend and may God bless you abundantly!

God bless! Have a wonderful Divine Liturgy this Sunday!

 

[Mickey]

God is merciful and God is love but we are not. The problem is not God or His Law, it’s us.

We are created in His image.

Sin is not external only. It all arises from within. Jesus makes it explicitly clear that our sinful passions, desires, wickedness and rebellion originate within us.

Yes. That is one way.

We cannot accept that grace unless grace changes our wills first.

Free will is a gift from God. We have free will to accept or reject His grace. Period.