Where did Martin Luther and John Calvin disagree?

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sola_scriptura said:
Tens of thousands of pre-teen boys raped, Medici Popes scaring the last nickel out of peasants to free their dead relatives from purgatory, the crusades, the inquisition, golly I’m just getting started.
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Sadly, you should not have responded at all. You played the same game while condemning his post.

There was plenty of murder to go around on both sides.

Love the sinner, hate the sin.
 
Mickey said:
How do you know that some are not able to choose Christ? Do you read the hearts and minds of men?
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No, but the word of God does. That word says men are unable to choose Christ unless the Father draws them by His word of gospel.
 
TriuneUnity said:
The life, death, and resurrection of Christ for sinners.
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But what gospel did Christ himself actually preach??

In other words, where specifically in the NT does he talk about his “life, death, and resurrection” to the crowds who came to hear him preach?
 
raumzeitmc2 said:
But what gospel did Christ himself actually preach??

In other words, where specifically in the NT does he talk about his “life, death, and resurrection” to the crowds who came to hear him preach?
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Matt. 16:21: From that time Jesus began to show his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and on the third day be raised.

Matt. 17:22: As they were gathering in Galilee, Jesus said to them, “The Son of Man is about to be delivered into the hands of men.

Matt 20:18: “See, we are going up to Jerusalem. And the Son of Man will be delivered over to the chief priests and scribes, and they will condemn him to death

John 11:25: Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live.

Matt 26:28: for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

Luke 24:47: and that repentance and forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem.

Of course, it is mainly the didactic epistles which teach us the message of the gospel and all that that entails.
 
TriuneUnity said:
Matt. 16:21: From that time Jesus began to show his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and on the third day be raised.

Matt. 17:22: As they were gathering in Galilee, Jesus said to them, “The Son of Man is about to be delivered into the hands of men.

Matt 20:18: “See, we are going up to Jerusalem. And the Son of Man will be delivered over to the chief priests and scribes, and they will condemn him to death

John 11:25: Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live.

Matt 26:28: for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

Luke 24:47: and that repentance and forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem.

Of course, it is mainly the didactic epistles which teach us the message of the gospel and all that that entails.
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Sorry, I should have been more specific. My question is this:

In Christ’s first, and subsequent early public preachings of the gospel, did he ever mention anything about the cross?

If not, what then would have been the content of these early pre-cross gospel messages?
 
Not to get off track here but Sola Scriptura and raumzeitmc have awfully looooong posts here. I thought you all said JimmyB’s posts were long? Practice what you preach people…:rolleyes:
 
raumzeitmc2 said:
Sorry, I should have been more specific. My question is this:

In Christ’s first, and subsequent early public preachings of the gospel, did he ever mention anything about the cross?

If not, what then would have been the content of these early pre-cross gospel messages?
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Well, of course it depends on which gospel narrative you’re referring to. The Gospel of St. John focuses on the work of Christ for our salvation from beginning to end. Matthew focuses on a lot of Christ’s sermons that preach the Law and His fulfillment of it.
 
TriuneUnity said:
No, but the word of God does. That word says men are unable to choose Christ unless the Father draws them by His word of gospel.
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The Word says many things. And for at least the first 400 years of Christianity, the Word was interpreted to teach us that we have free will.
 
TriuneUnity said:
Well, of course it depends on which gospel narrative you’re referring to. The Gospel of St. John focuses on the work of Christ for our salvation from beginning to end. Matthew focuses on a lot of Christ’s sermons that preach the Law and His fulfillment of it.
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So Christ’s “gospel,” the one *he himself *preached, the one that actually fell from his lips, contains no mention of the Cross?
*“It is an easier thing for the sun to be quenched, than for the Church to be made invisible.”
St. John Chrysostom, T. vi, Hom. iv. In illud: Vidi Dom. n. 2, p. 141.

(Tome vi, Homily iv, In Illud, Vidi Dominum)

books.google.com/books?id=lv1BAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA195&dq=%22sun+to+be+quenched,+than+for+the+Church+to+be+made+invisible%22&lr=

Vidi Dominum (Latin) = (“I saw the Lord”) (“I have seen the Lord”) - Isaiah 1:6

In Illud, Vidi Dominum a.k.a., Homilies in Oziam = Homilies on Uzziah = a series of six homilies on Uzziah (Oziam).

Homelies sur Ozias =: In illud, vidi Dominum (Sources chretiennes), Cerf (1981), ISBN 220401687X

amazon.com/Homelies-sur-Ozias-Dominum-chretiennes/dp/220401687X
 
raumzeitmc2 said:
So Christ’s “gospel,” the one *he himself *preached, the one that actually fell from his lips, contains no mention of the Cross?
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I didn’t say he preached the gospel without the cross. I stated he preached the Law. A lot of it was also spent performing healing and miracles as signs of who he was and his mission.
 
Mickey said:
The Word says many things. And for at least the first 400 years of Christianity, the Word was interpreted to teach us that we have free will.
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And in as much as they confused biblical revelation with Greek humanism they were wrong.
 
TriuneUnity said:
they were wrong.
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No. They were not. The deepest wells have the clearest water. With all due respect, I will adhere to the interpretations of the earliest Church Fathers of the Apostolic Church (many of which learned from the apostles or disciples of the apostles) over the interpretations of the worldy traditions of reformers who came along 1500 years later carrying new interpretations. 🤷

These men caused the real confusion.
 
Mickey said:
I have seen very good debates involving the Galileo/infallibility argument. Talented RC apologists have fared quite well (I cannot locate the debate I was reading).

My rejection of the odd doctrine is based on Sacred Tradition and the teaching of the undivided apostolic Church in the first millenium.

I do not need Galileo to know that it was a bad idea. 😃
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I read several posts discussing the Church Galileo and Infallibility. First this situation does not apply to each other. Second the Church was correct. People making the claim that Galileo was correct have never read his hypothesis. Copernicus already defined heliocentrism and the Church did not refute it. Copernicus was actually a low level cleric in the Catholic faith. Galileo restated Copernicus’ theory; however, he added some areas that were in error. His theory concerning heliocentrism is wrong and was proved wrong by Kepler within his own lifetime.

Note that Church Cathedrals were used to test astronomical theories prior to the more advanced telescopes. The Church actively pursued science.

I have posted this basic historical information many times. If one doesn’t believe it one should go back and read history. The Church was right and Galileo’s version of heliocentrism was wrong. The Church already approved; but, did not authoritatively state Copernicus version of heliocentrism. It also did not charge Kepler with heresy.

Why was Galileo charged? Because he wanted his theory, which was wrong accepted by the Church as law and he wanted the Bible changed to reflect his theory.
 
TriuneUnity said:
And in as much as they confused biblical revelation with Greek humanism they were wrong.
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Interesting thought. I know that you do not prescribe to all of Luthers thought’s; however, in his earlier years he was framed by the humanistic approach. To a certain degree he refuted this in later years; however, in his early years it impacted his thoughts and theology.
 
PerryJ said:
I read several posts discussing the Church Galileo and Infallibility. First this situation does not apply to each other. Second the Church was correct. People making the claim that Galileo was correct have never read his hypothesis. Copernicus already defined heliocentrism and the Church did not refute it. Copernicus was actually a low level cleric in the Catholic faith. Galileo restated Copernicus’ theory; however, he added some areas that were in error. His theory concerning heliocentrism is wrong and was proved wrong by Kepler within his own lifetime.

Note that Church Cathedrals were used to test astronomical theories prior to the more advanced telescopes. The Church actively pursued science.

I have posted this basic historical information many times. If one doesn’t believe it one should go back and read history. The Church was right and Galileo’s version of heliocentrism was wrong. The Church already approved; but, did not authoritatively state Copernicus version of heliocentrism. It also did not charge Kepler with heresy.

Why was Galileo charged? Because he wanted his theory, which was wrong accepted by the Church as law and he wanted the Bible changed to reflect his theory.
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I have never pitted Galileo against infallibility. That is sola_scriptura’s ball game. 😃
 
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