Where did original sin come from if

  • Thread starter Thread starter Ideo
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
I

Ideo

Guest
I apologize if this is in the wrong forum. I really am curious, for those of you who accept evolution, as to where original sin came from. If you believe in evolution, then the Garden of Eden is a metaphor, right? Or do you interpret it some other way, like “this line is real, this line is metaphor”? So how did original sin come about if Genesis isn’t literal?
 
I apologize if this is in the wrong forum. I really am curious, for those of you who accept evolution, as to where original sin came from. If you believe in evolution, then the Garden of Eden is a metaphor, right? Or do you interpret it some other way, like “this line is real, this line is metaphor”? So how did original sin come about if Genesis isn’t literal?
Taking something an allegory means it tells a truth in a more poetic way.

In other words, Original Sin was when man (Heb: 'adm or adam) turned away from God due to his free will because of Satan’s corruption.
 
I apologize if this is in the wrong forum. I really am curious, for those of you who accept evolution, as to where original sin came from. If you believe in evolution, then the Garden of Eden is a metaphor, right? Or do you interpret it some other way, like “this line is real, this line is metaphor”? So how did original sin come about if Genesis isn’t literal?
As far as I’m aware the Garden of Eden isn’t a metaphor. The Church accepts the theory of evolution in the case of animals. Humans were a special creation by God.

Hope that helps.

God bless,

Katherine
 
As far as I’m aware the Garden of Eden isn’t a metaphor. The Church accepts the theory of evolution in the case of animals. Humans were a special creation by God.

Hope that helps.

God bless,

Katherine
Actually, the Church requires belief that the soul was a special creation
 
The Catechism of the Catholic Church typically uses expressions like “symbolic language” and “figurative language” in describing things that are mentioned in the first three chapters of the Book of Genesis.

The Visible World
337
God himself created the visible world in all its richness, diversity, and order. Scripture presents the work of the Creator symbolically as a succession of six days of divine “work,” concluded by the “rest” of the seventh day. …

"Body and Soul but Truly One"
362
The human person, created in the image of God, is a being at once corporeal and spiritual. The biblical account expresses this reality in symbolic language when it affirms that “then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.” …

Man in Paradise

375 The Church, interpreting the symbolism of biblical language in an authentic way, in the light of the New Testament and Tradition, teaches that our first parents, Adam and Eve, were constituted in an original “state of holiness and justice.” This grace of original holiness was “to share in . . . divine life.”

How to read the account of the Fall
390
The account of the fall in Genesis 3 uses figurative language, but affirms a primeval event, a deed that took place at the beginning of the history of man. Revelation gives us the certainty of faith that the whole of human history is marked by the original fault freely committed by our first parents.
 
I apologize if this is in the wrong forum. I really am curious, for those of you who accept evolution, as to where original sin came from. If you believe in evolution, then the Garden of Eden is a metaphor, right? Or do you interpret it some other way, like “this line is real, this line is metaphor”? So how did original sin come about if Genesis isn’t literal?
I believe it came from knowledge, when man lacked knowledge he lacked sin. When he gained knowledge, from the "tree of knowledge” sin was indwelled in him. The “tree of knowledge” and the “fruit of knowledge” are probably more allegory or metaphor if you like. Evolution is not a factor whether you believe Genesis is a direct scenario in time or summary of millions of years really has no affect to me.
 
I apologize if this is in the wrong forum. I really am curious, for those of you who accept evolution, as to where original sin came from. If you believe in evolution, then the Garden of Eden is a metaphor, right? Or do you interpret it some other way, like “this line is real, this line is metaphor”? So how did original sin come about if Genesis isn’t literal?
Original sin (or Inherited sin) came from the fall of Adam in the garden of Eden as recorded plainly in the book of Genesis [3:6], and in St. Paul’s Epistle to the Romans, chapter 5:
**“Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned…” **[v. 12]
WALTHER
 
Just because Adam’s body may have been brought about by a process of gradual evolution doesn’t mean he didn’t lose his sinlessness and bring original sin into the world in exactly the fashion described in Genesis.
 
I don’t know. If it was recorded so plainly in the Torah, then why didn’t Jews, throughout history, believe in this concept?

jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/Original_Sin.html
Simply because one cannot, or refuses to, believe the Scripture’s clear testimony concerning the fall of man does not translate into meaning that the Scriptures are no longer clear (many fanatics and enthusiasts reject the nature and efficacy of Baptism, yet Scripture is perfectly clear on the matter [Matthew 28:19; Mark 16:16; Titus 3:5-8; Romans 6:4; etc.]).

The Jews who did not understand that we are all fallen in Adam had a false idea regarding the Scriptures; that fault being entirely due to their own sinfulness–not the “obscurity” of the Word of God.

WALTHER
 
This question leads us to the basic question as to the historical validity of the Tanach (Old Testement) and the Church’s position on it. These are questions I’ve asked myself. Adam and Hava (Eve); Sdom and Gamora; Avraham, Yitzhak and Yaakov; Yetziat Mitzraim (Exodus), 12 tribes; Saul, David and Solomon; The consensus view of Biblical archeology and inquiry over the last century is that the historical Bible is very different than the Bible of the Ancient interpreters. Original sin is the corner stone of the mission of Jesus and Salvation. In my point of view it is a question of Faith and an understanding of what reality is. My understanding of the world around me is via the 5 senses and its limitations. If you look at the world via String Theory, this view is beyond the abilities of our 5 senses and the reality portrayed is very different from my day to day perception of reality. My faith tells me that a very major event happened 2000 years ago independent from the Tanach. God came into this world as a man, flesh and blood and lived among us for over 30 years. The base of our faith is the Gospels, the Testaments given by the Apostles and the traditions and doctrines that have come down over the centuries. I place my trust in the Popes and the infallibility of the Pope together with the Bishops. I personally reject the path followed by the Society of Jesus since Vatican II and their attempt to grapple with Modernism, the position of the Pope and the relevance of Spirituality. I believe the Holy Spirit will guide the Church in how to grapple with the finding of Science. If we look down the road with possibilities opened up by science and technology, major issues will confront future generations as to what is the definition of human being, what are his basic rights, what is his worth in society and how to deal with ever changing basic issues of morality. So to return to the question at hand, the doctrine of original sin is not only the corner stone of our beliefs it is also the cornerstone to the protection of a human being, a spiritual creature of God, A creature that is worth the love and care of God to come into our world as we perceive it through our 5 senses and sacrifice his only son our Lord Jesus the Christ for our spiritual salvation. The Tanach as a result of scientific preview may not be of much value for human protection in future generation, but the Tanach as a spiritual repository of Gods will and message for man as a spiritual creature is our defense in the future world following the path blazed by science and technological development.
 
I believe it came from knowledge, when man lacked knowledge he lacked sin. When he gained knowledge, from the "tree of knowledge” sin was indwelled in him. The “tree of knowledge” and the “fruit of knowledge” are probably more allegory or metaphor if you like. Evolution is not a factor whether you believe Genesis is a direct scenario in time or summary of millions of years really has no affect to me.
How were they supposed to know that eating fruit was bad if they had no knowledge of what good and evil was? Also, if they lacked knowledge, what made them in the “image of God”? Please don’t say “soul”, because there is no way to define or confirm the existence of such an object. As far as we can tell from numerous autopsies and live explorations of the human body, it has no magical object hidden in it that animals do not. It has a large brain, which holds personality, thoughts, etc., but if they lacked knowledge, then why was their brain so much better than animals’ at the time?

You get into a very sticky trap when you start claiming that the days were metaphors. The word used in genesis translates to a 24 hr. day, as well as the fact that God supposedly made the week out of these 7 days of work (I have no idea where God got night and day from before the sun was made in Genesis 1:16, but here you are:
3 And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and He separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day)

The last part there seems to imply the day cycle. I am aware of the verse that compares a day to a thousand years, but I think to use it here would be taking it out of its context of praising God.

“The Hebrew word for ‘day’ is ‘yom’ and this word can occasionally be used to mean an indefinite period of time, if the content warrants. In the overwhelming preponderance of its occurrences in the O.T., however, it means a literal day… Still further, the plural form of the word (Hebrew ‘yamim’) is used over 700 times in the O.T. and always, without exception, refers to literal ‘days.’” (The Bible Has the Answers, Henry Morris, p. 94).

I recently read this page. It is a wonderful overview of all of the creationist theories, and explains the problems with them.
origins.swau.edu/bible/literal.html

Also, it would be difficult to determine just how long these “days” were. “Six days shalt thou labor, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the Sabbath. . . . in it thou shalt not work… For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth… and rested the seventh day” (Exodus 20:9-11) This seems pretty clear in its implication.

“If a day is an era, then much of the Old Testament becomes chaotic. For example, in each of the following verses the same Hebrew word “yom” is employed: “And the flood was forty days upon the earth” (Genesis 7: 1 7), “And he [Moses] was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights” (Exodus 34:28), and “Thus I fell down before the Lord forty days and forty nights…” (Deuteronomy 9:25). If “yom” means era instead of a 24-hour period, Moses was “there with the Lord” for a VERY long time.”

Those aren’t all the issues with it, but I wonder how you justify this view? Perhaps I’m just being evil and close-minded and twisting the Bible verses to mean what I want them to. If so, can you explain the correct interpretation, and why it is better and more accurate than my interpretation? Thanks.
 
I apologize if this is in the wrong forum. I really am curious, for those of you who accept evolution, as to where original sin came from. If you believe in evolution, then the Garden of Eden is a metaphor, right? Or do you interpret it some other way, like “this line is real, this line is metaphor”? So how did original sin come about if Genesis isn’t literal?
Here’s one interpretation, which I hold.

God created the universe in such a way that his designed process of evolution would produce homo sapiens. Homo sapiens possess an anatomy and physiology that reflects the divine image, and are suitable bodies for the purpose of providing a will. God then gave two individual homo sapiens, Adam and Eve, the spark of free-will/ consciousness of the Divine/ soul.

These two individuals were in communion with God, but in some way decided to turn away from him. They thus lost their ability to transmit sanctifying grace onto the next generation, and thus all subsequent descendants of this pair, which is all of us, are born without sanctifying grace, i.e. original sin.
 
God created the universe in such a way that his designed process of evolution would produce homo sapiens. Homo sapiens possess an anatomy and physiology that reflects the divine image, and are suitable bodies for the purpose of providing a will. God then gave two individual homo sapiens, Adam and Eve, the spark of free-will/ consciousness of the Divine/ soul.

These two individuals were in communion with God, but in some way decided to turn away from him. They thus lost their ability to transmit sanctifying grace onto the next generation, and thus all subsequent descendants of this pair, which is all of us, are born without sanctifying grace, i.e. original sin.
I’ll ignore the fact that it seems you are picking and choosing verses to be real.👍

You understand evolution, correct? Which means that you know there would not be only two homo sapiens at the time the species came into being? Okay, you said that God selected two of them. So then what about the rest of them? Some of us, by that token, would’ve been descended from them or interbreeding with them. And what about Eve being made out of Adam’s rib? If your theory is true, then where the heck did that verse come from? Not to mention that the whole reason God created Eve was because Adam was lonely. Why would he be lonely if humans already existed? And yes, that means that females had to exist, also.

I can absolutely understand being poetic to a point, but you can only take that so far. There are some verses and whole books in the bible that are written in a language and form that suggests they are poetic, but there are others which it would be intellectually dishonest to call so, when compared to those metaphoric parts. Genesis is a book that is written in a form that reads like history. The language never suggests, at least in the first part, that it is simply a story. Jesus himself said ‘But from the **beginning **of the creation God made them male and female’ (Mark 10:6). The literal translation for the word is, indeed, beginning, as in “at the start”. Beginning of creation, not just of human life, but at the beginning of creation. At least, according to Jesus.
 
I’ll ignore the fact that it seems you are picking and choosing verses to be real.👍

You understand evolution, correct? Which means that you know there would not be only two homo sapiens at the time the species came into being? Okay, you said that God selected two of them. So then what about the rest of them? Some of us, by that token, would’ve been descended from them or interbreeding with them. And what about Eve being made out of Adam’s rib? If your theory is true, then where the heck did that verse come from? Not to mention that the whole reason God created Eve was because Adam was lonely. Why would he be lonely if humans already existed? And yes, that means that females had to exist, also.

I can absolutely understand being poetic to a point, but you can only take that so far. There are some verses and whole books in the bible that are written in a language and form that suggests they are poetic, but there are others which it would be intellectually dishonest to call so, when compared to those metaphoric parts. Genesis is a book that is written in a form that reads like history. The language never suggests, at least in the first part, that it is simply a story. Jesus himself said ‘But from the **beginning **of the creation God made them male and female’ (Mark 10:6). The literal translation for the word is, indeed, beginning, as in “at the start”. Beginning of creation, not just of human life, but at the beginning of creation. At least, according to Jesus.
I’ll try and tolerate your smugness. 👍

I understand that there are two different accounts of creation, and that both of them were written by real people living in a time when science was non-existent. So I believe that insofar that the authors used the knowledge they had at the time, they expressed fundamental truths of our origin, guided by the holy Spirit yet still limited by the knowledge that had been gained through their senses up to that point.

Your quote of Jesus still holds true. From the first moment of creation, God had it planned in his eternal will that us ensouled humans would be male and female. He created the universe in that way. For God, who is eternal, all of creation is one single instant- beginning, middle, and end.

There are different ways to work around the apparent genetic diversity evidence that we descended from more than two parents. Here’s an article for some ideas: jimmyakin.org/2006/10/monogenism_scie.html
 
hahahahha, I asked for that. But it is true, nonetheless.

But that article is certainly not scientifically accurate at all. Speculation like that proves nothing, and is a sorry attempt to reconcile a legend with science.

You say that they were guided by the Holy Spirit, but had no knowledge of the scientific proofs that would have shut up non-believers the world over? If the Holy Spirit wanted us to believe (as the Bible says, several times, God does) why leave out the details that would shut us evil agnostics up? Why did the Holy Spirit inspire a legend instead of the facts that would have been not only revolutionary, but proof of God if they had shown this insight back then? There are all sorts of moral insights (none of which were revolutionary) in the Bible, but then God leaves out the evidence that any of it is true by not telling his writers what really happened “in the beginning”? By that token, Buddhism is the truth, as is Hinduism and Islam. However, the respective gods and spirits in those religions were inspiring metaphors, so there’s no actual PROOF, but hey! That’s okay! We know it’s true in our hearts, just like the ancient Greeks knew in their hearts that men had more teeth than women.:rolleyes:
 
I’ll ignore the fact that it seems you are picking and choosing verses to be real.👍
I don’t know if you quite understand what “metaphorical” or “symbolic” means… :hmmm:

Genesis is 100% true. It’s not about picking a choosing what is truth and what is “not.”
Its about the interpretation of symbolic truth…

Look at it this way, Moses did not witness the creation himself did he? So could it be that when he wrote about the past he was inspired to write more or less similar to how the other prophets wrote about the future? I doubt you take Revelation literally yet you believe it to be 100% true yes?
 
Here’s what the Church declared through the Pontifical Biblical Commission in the early 20th century:
Concerning the Historical Character of the First Three Chapters of Genesis
June 30, 1909 (AAS 1 [1909] 567ff; EB 332ff; Dz 2121ff)

I: Do the various exegetical systems excogitated and defended under the guise of science to exclude the literal historical sense of the first three chapters of Genesis rest on a solid foundation?
Answer: In the negative.

II:
Notwithstanding the historical character and form of Genesis, the special connection of the first three chapters with one another and with the following chapters, the manifold testimonies of the Scriptures both of the Old and of the New Testaments, the almost unanimous opinion of the holy Fathers and the traditional view which the people of Israel also has handed on and the Church has always held, may it be taught that: the aforesaid three chapters of Genesis Contain not accounts of actual events, accounts, that is, which correspond to objective reality and historical truth, but, either fables derived from the mythologies and cosmogonies of ancient peoples and accommodated by the sacred writer to monotheistic doctrine after the expurgation of any polytheistic error; or allegories and symbols without any foundation in objective reality proposed under the form of history to inculcate religious and philosophical truths; or finally legends in part historical and in part fictitious freely composed with a view to instruction and edification?
Answer: In the negative to both parts.

III:
In particular may the literal historical sense be called in doubt in the case of facts narrated in the same chapters which touch the foundations of the Christian religion: as are, among others, the creation of all things by God in the beginning of time; the special creation of man; the formation of the first woman from the first man; the unity of the human race; the original felicity of our first parents in the state of justice, integrity, and immortality; the command given by God to man to test his obedience; the transgression of the divine command at the instigation of the devil under the form of a serpent; the degradation of our first parents from that primeval state of innocence; and the promise of a future Redeemer?
Answer: In the negative.

IV:
In the interpretation of those passages in these chapters which the Fathers and Doctors understood in different manners without proposing anything certain and definite, is it lawful, without prejudice to the judgement of the Church and with attention to the analogy of faith, to follow and defend the opinion that commends itself to each one?
Answer: In the affirmative.

V:
Must each and every word and phrase occurring in the aforesaid chapters always and necessarily be understood in its literal sense, so that it is never lawful to deviate from it, even when it appears obvious that the diction is employed in an applied sense, either metaphorical or anthropomorphical, and either reason forbids the retention or necessity imposes the abandonment of the literal sense?
Answer: In the negative.

VI:
Provided that the literal and historical sense is presupposed, may certain passages in the same chapters, in the light of the example of the holy Fathers and of the Church itself, be wisely and profitably interpreted in an allegorical and prophetic sense?
Answer: In the affirmative.

VII:
As it was not the mind of the sacred author in the composition of the first chapter of Genesis to give scientific teaching about the internal Constitution of visible things and the entire order of creation, but rather to communicate to his people a popular notion in accord with the current speech of the time and suited to the understanding and capacity of men, must the exactness of scientific language be always meticulously sought for in the interpretation of these matters?
Answer: In the negative.

VIII:
In the designation and distinction of the six days mentioned in the first chapter of Genesis may the word Yom (day) be taken either in the literal sense for the natural day or in an applied sense for a certain space of time, and may this question be the subject of free discussion among exegetes?
Answer: In the affirmative.
You might also want to read what Pope Pius XII taught in Humani Generis:
36. For these reasons the Teaching Authority of the Church does not forbid that, in conformity with the present state of human sciences and sacred theology, research and discussions, on the part of men experienced in both fields, take place with regard to the doctrine of evolution, in as far as it inquires into the origin of the human body as coming from pre-existent and living matter - for the Catholic faith obliges us to hold that souls are immediately created by God. However, this must be done in such a way that the reasons for both opinions, that is, those favorable and those unfavorable to evolution, be weighed and judged with the necessary seriousness, moderation and measure, and provided that all are prepared to submit to the judgment of the Church, to whom Christ has given the mission of interpreting authentically the Sacred Scriptures and of defending the dogmas of faith. Some however, rashly transgress this liberty of discussion, when they act as if the origin of the human body from pre-existing and living matter were already completely certain and proved by the facts which have been discovered up to now and by reasoning on those facts, and as if there were nothing in the sources of divine revelation which demands the greatest moderation and caution in this question.
  1. When, however, there is question of another conjectural opinion, namely polygenism, the children of the Church by no means enjoy such liberty. For the faithful cannot embrace that opinion which maintains that either after Adam there existed on this earth true men who did not take their origin through natural generation from him as from the first parent of all, or that Adam represents a certain number of first parents. Now it is in no way apparent how such an opinion can be reconciled with that which the sources of revealed truth and the documents of the Teaching Authority of the Church propose with regard to original sin, which proceeds from a sin actually committed by an individual Adam and which, through generation, is passed on to all and is in everyone as his own.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top