Where did paul get the information he had?

[StrawberryJam]

Reading some more of the bible, I stumbled on a passage 2 Tim 3:8 and started wondering where Paul got the names of Jannes and Jambers from. Does anyone know?

 

[COPLAND_3]

The Ignatius Study Bible says this

Egyptian magicians who opposed Moses and Aaron (Ex. 7:11). They are not named in the OT but are identified as such in Jewish tradition (e.g., in the Dead Sea Scrolls, CD 5, 18-19, and in an apocryphal work titled Jannes and Jambres).

The Haydock Bible Commentary gives some good patristic insight here

Ver. 8. Jannes and Mambres. The names of the magicians, who in Egypt, resisted Moses, says St. Chrysostom, and though not mentioned in the Scriptures, their names might be known by tradition. (Witham) — Since the Old Testament does not mention these magicians of Pharao, who opposed Moses, it seems probable that St. Paul either learnt their names by a particular revelation, as St. Chrysostom, Theophylactus, and Tirinus think, or by some tradition of the Jews, agreeably to the opinions of Theodoret, Grotius, Estius, &c. Others think he might have found their names in some ancient histories, which have not reached our time; or perhaps from the apocryaphal book of Jannes and Mambres, mentioned by Origen and Ambrosiaster. Certain it is, that in St. Paul’s time the names of these two famous magicians were very well known; thus it is by no means necessary in this instance to have recourse to a particular inspiration. The Orientals say there were many magicians who opposed Moses. Among others, they mention Sabous and Gadous, who came from Thebias; Graath and Mospha, from some other country. They wished, as they inform us, to imitate the miracle by which Moses turned his rod into a serpent, by throwing their canes on the ground, and ropes filled with quicksilver. These ropes began to move a little, one twisting with another, on account of the heat of the earth warmed by the sun. But the rod of Moses in a moment broke them to pieces. (Calmet) — These magicians are called by different names. The Greek has Jannes and Jambres. Some ancient writers, Jannes and Mambres; as St. Cyprian, Optatus, (chap. 7.) Born. &c. The Jews call that Joanne, or Johanna, whom the Greeks name Jannes; and that called by the Jews Jambres, the Greeks name Mambres. The Hebrews would have them to be the sons of Balaam, the soothsayer, and the masters of Moses in the sciences of the Egyptians. (Calmet)

 

[StrawberryJam]

The Ignatius Study Bible says this

What evidence is there that Paul read those documents?

 

[COPLAND_3]

What evidence is there that Paul read those documents?

Since that was Jewish oral tradition, and since Paul was a devout Pharisee, it would have been impossible for him to not have been aware of it.

 

[StrawberryJam]

Since that was Jewish oral tradition, and since Paul was a devout Pharisee, it would have been impossible for him to not have been aware of it.

Had he not written their names into one of his letters, who would know about this now?

 

[COPLAND_3]

Had he not written their names into one of his letters, who would know about this now?

We would know about the tradition since it is preserved in the Dead Sea Scrolls, as well as many ancient Jewish traditions are. What Paul does is verify that those names are correct since Paul was writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Also we would know from that apocryphal writing listed above.

 

[Cachonga]

COPLAND 3:

We would know about the tradition since it is preserved in the Dead Sea Scrolls, as well as many ancient Jewish traditions are.

Just curious, but if it’s written down how is it an “oral” tradition?

 

[Eucharisted]

Reading some more of the bible, I stumbled on a passage 2 Tim 3:8 and started wondering where Paul got the names of Jannes and Jambers from. Does anyone know?

The names of the magicians is part of Jewish Tradition. Tradition and Scripture are the whole Torah in Judaism; they are the Oral Torah and the Written Torah, the Torah as passed down by word of mouth and the Torah as painted onto sheep skin. The Scriptures come from Tradition, naturally, since word of mouth came before writing in the world. Saint Paul references a lot of Jewish Tradition in his letters, which is one reason why he has more letters in the New Testament than anyone else.

 

[Cachonga]

I would suggest that oral traditions can change and/or develop over time (not necessarily from God). How can you tell if an “oral” (or “sacred”) tradition is from God or man? I would refer you to Mark 7:1-13 (Jesus used Scripture to prove that the Corban “tradition” was from man, and not from God). Apart from Scripture, how can you KNOW that your “Sacred Traditions” are not from man? In regard to Jannes and Jambres, as I already asked, if something is written down, how is it an “oral” tradition? I would say that the fact that Paul mentions Jannes and Jambres proves that the written record was accurate.

 

[COPLAND_3]

Just curious, but if it’s written down how is it an “oral” tradition?

Oral traditions had a way of being written down over time in various ways, just like some of the oral traditions in NT times got recorded in apocryphal writings and the Church Fathers. One way to preserve an oral tradition is the write it down. And when the ancients explained the meaning of Scripture the orthodox approach was to explain it the way that it has always been handed down orally.

 

[patrick457]

A simple answer: a well-known Jewish tradition. Here are some nearly-contemporary references to them:

In times past God observed their deeds and His wrath was kindled because of their cunning. For it is a people of no understanding; they are a nation void of counsel, because there is no understanding in them. For in times past Moses and Aaron arose through the Prince of Lights, but in his cunning Belial raised Yokhaneh and his brother when Israel was delivered for the first time.

-Damascus Document 5:17-19 (ca. late 1st century BC)

There is another magical group who derive their origin from Moses, and Iannes, and Lotapes, and the Jews, but many thousand years after Zoroaster: and as much more recent, again, is the branch of magic cultivated in Cyprus.

-Pliny the Elder, Naturalis Historia, 30.2.11 (77-79 AD)

Said Yokhana and Mamra to Moses, “*Would you bring straw to Hafarayim?**” Moses answered, “There is a common saying, ‘Bring herbs to Herbtown!’”

Carry straw: i.e. “Why are you bringing magic here in Egypt where magic is in abundance?” When describing a wasted effort, it was likened to carrying straw to Hafarayim.
Herbtown: Evidently a place where demand for herbs is great. That is to say that if this is where the market is made, then the demand will be greatest here. Moses thus insinuates that “if Egypt the center of the best magic, it is here that my ‘magic’ will be best appreciated.” There is a similarity here to another story told in the Midrash Rabbah:

Then did Pharaoh begin to mock them and crow at them like a cock, saying to them, “So these are the signs of your God! It is usual for people to take goods to a place which has a shortage of them; but does one import murics into Apamea or fish into Acco? Are you not aware that all kinds of magic are within my province?” He then called for children to be brought from school and they also performed these wonders.

Said Moses, “To Herbtown one carries herbs.”-Talmud Bavli, Menakhot 85a (2nd-5th centuries AD)

If you can discover one trivial reason that might have led me to woo Pudentilla for the sake of some personal advantage, if you can prove that I have made the very slightest profit out of it, I am ready to be Carmendas or Damigeron or this Moses or Iohannes or Apollobex or Dardanus himself or any magician of note from the time of Zoroaster and Ostanes.

-Apuleius, Apologia 90 (ca. 158 AD)

And next in order came Iannes and Iambres, Egyptian sacred scribes, men judged to have no superiors in the practice of magic, at the time when the Jews were being driven out of Egypt. So then these were the men chosen by the people of Egypt as fit to stand beside Musaios who led the Jews out, a man who was most powerful in prayer to God and of the plagues which Musaios brought upon Egypt, these men showed themselves able to disperse the most violent.

-Numenius, On the Good (late 2nd century AD)

And I, Solomon, questioned the other spirit which came up with the pillar from the depth of the Red Sea. And I said to him, "Who are you, and what calls you? And what is your business? For I hear many things about you.’’ And the demon answered: “I, King Solomon, am called Abezithibod. I am a descendant of the archangel. Once as I sat in the first heaven, of which the name is Ameleouth - then I am a fierce spirit and winged, and with a single wing, plotting against every spirit under heaven. I was present when Moses went in before Pharaoh, king of Egypt, and I hardened his heart. I am he whom Iannes and Iambres, who fought against Moses in Egypt, called to their aid. I am the adversary of Moses in wonders and signs.”

-The Testament of Solomon, 25:2-4 (ca. 1st-5th century AD)

And Pharaoh said that while asleep he saw in his dream and behold, the entire land of Egypt was placed on one scale of a balance and a lamb, the young of an ewe, on the other scale; and the scale of the balance with the lamb outweighed the other. Immediately he sent and called all the sorcerers of Egypt and narrated his dream to them. Immediately Yanis and Yambres, the chief magicians, opened their mouth and said to Pharaoh, “A son is about to be born in the community of Israel through whom the entire land of Egypt is to be destroyed.” Therefore Pharaoh, the king of Egypt, followed their advice and said to the Jewish midwives, “When you are helping the Hebrew women to give birth and see them upon the birthstool, if it is a son, then you shall put him to death; but if it is a daughter, then she shall live.”

…And Pharaoh also called the wise men and the sorcerers, and they also, Yanis and Yambris, the sorcerers who were in Egypt, did likewise with their magic arts. And every man threw down his staff and they became basilisks, and immediately they were changed to become as they were at first and the staff of Aaron swallowed up their staffs.

http://img229.imageshack.us/img229/4222/moses20asks20pharaoh20f.jpg

…And God was angry that he [Balaam] was going to curse them, and the angel of God stood on the road to oppose him. And he was riding on his donkey, and his two sons, Yanis and Yamris were with him.

-Targum pseudo-Jonathan, Exodus 1:15-16, 7:11-12; Numbers 22:22​

 

[StrawberryJam]

The names of the magicians is part of Jewish Tradition. Tradition and Scripture are the whole Torah in Judaism; they are the Oral Torah and the Written Torah, the Torah as passed down by word of mouth and the Torah as painted onto sheep skin. The Scriptures come from Tradition, naturally, since word of mouth came before writing in the world. Saint Paul references a lot of Jewish Tradition in his letters, which is one reason why he has more letters in the New Testament than anyone else.

On sheepskin? Really?

 

[StrawberryJam]

The fact that magical explainations** ran rampant at that time **to prove or to simply after that case, des male a dofferemt group

 

[NoelFitz]

Perhaps this thread has wondered from the original query:
“

Reading some more of the bible, I stumbled on a passage 2 Tim 3:8 and started wondering where Paul got the names of Jannes and Jambers from. Does anyone know?

Here Paul mentions two magician’s of Pharaoh’s court who were opposed to Moses. The tradition goes back to the Damascus Document. Subsequent references in Christian , Jewish and Secular (Latin and Greek) writers are numerous. Jannes (Johana) and Jambers (Jambres, Mambres) became symbols of opponents to truth.

 

[StrawberryJam]

I changed my password. I did not post that post above. I hope that solves the problem.

 

[Dogface_Soldier]

I would suggest that oral traditions can change and/or develop over time (not necessarily from God). How can you tell if an “oral” (or “sacred”) tradition is from God or man? I would refer you to Mark 7:1-13 (Jesus used Scripture to prove that the Corban “tradition” was from man, and not from God). Apart from Scripture, how can you KNOW that your “Sacred Traditions” are not from man? In regard to Jannes and Jambres, as I already asked, if something is written down, how is it an “oral” tradition? I would say that the fact that Paul mentions Jannes and Jambres proves that the written record was accurate.

how do you know if your written scripture is accurate? Codex Sinaiticus version of Mark correct, or is the Codex Vaticanus version correct? Why do you even believe that Mark composed a gospel? Who was Mark? Why should we believe anything that he has to say about Jesus? Even supposing you establish the “authentic” version of Mark’s gospel, how do you know that it accurately contains what Jesus said and did? At the time the listener/reader confronts them, written traditions are no more reliable than oral ones. The Church is the pillar and bulwark of truth, and bear in mind that these characteristics about the Church are true independent of whether or not they are contained in Scripture.

 

[StrawberryJam]

how do you know if your written scripture is accurate?

 

[Dogface_Soldier]

responses

SJ, you raise some important questions, however, i was responding to Cachonga’s points in particular. Both Cachonga and I accept the veracity of the canonical books, but, for us, why we accept them is a significant point of debate.

From a secular point of view, i find the claims of the NT gospels more probable than not. Most of the books satisfy the “higher criticism” criteria (other books simply lack sufficient data to reach a determination of the criteria, e.g., Philemon, Jude, etc.). By the way, in his book “What Paul Meant”, Gary Wills demonstrates quite convincingly how Paul’s authentic epistles corroborate the content of the 4 canonical gospels. The significance, of course, is two-fold: (1) Paul wrote his epistles at least a decade prior to Mark or Q, and (2) Paul is emphatic that he received the gospel from Jesus, not from flesh and blood, and other writings (canonical and non-canonical) corroborate his claim. Disclaimer: some of Wills’ other claims i do not find convincing.

From a Christian pov, I believe that Jesus founded an institutional Church, and he commissioned His apostles to execute the functions of the Church. The Apostles chose Matthias to replace Judas, and they chose others to replace themselves and appointed others as Bishops in various cities. These Bishops received the letters (many hundreds of them) from the Apostles, and these Bishops read them during the Liturgy and Eucharist. They also copied these letters and kept them for posterity. Eventually, after much dispute and discussion, Bishops in the late 4th century chose 27 from among these hundreds of letters, gospels, and histories to constitute the NT.

 

[StrawberryJam]

I’ll see if I can get that book you mentioned DS. I think you raise good points for me to consider. Thanks for the information!

 

[Digitonomy]

What Paul does is verify that those names are correct since Paul was writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

I don’t think we can assume automatically that factual matters like the names of those who opposed Moses are correct just because they are recorded in scripture. There are too many factual matters we know not to be correct (e.g. the claim that the mustard seed is the smallest of all seeds in Mark 4:31). Perhaps a better approach would be to look at the message Paul is trying to get across, which I think has a greater claim to being inspired by the Holy Spirit than particular symbolic examples he cites from the culture of the day.