Where did reformers get the authority to leave the Catholic Church?

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I actually ask this a lot in my USATODAY forum postings and never get an answer. This question I believe is especially necessary for churches which teach that everything has to come from the Bible. I’m reading a book called “The Concise History of the Catholic Church” which does admit that reform was needed in the church and happened too late. There were a lot of problems in the church centuries before the Reformation. But the Bible has never let anyone create their own church. And Jesus said a house divided would fall I believe. There was a verse which had other Christians who were not with the Apostles and Jesus said to leave them alone. For Catholics how do we defend that verse in regards to this question? I just see a king creating a church because he wants to divorce his wife as something being started with evil and sinful motivations. Nationalism was on the roll during this time and I bet had a large factor in what Henry VIII did. But Nationalsim is a world belief and we are taught to have heavenly beliefs. Jesus said “what is the use in calling me ‘Lord, lord’, and not doing what I say?” He said very specific things about divorce. So in regards to the Bible as a whole, where does someone get the authority to create their own church? I’d really like to hear what protestants would say to this question whether or not they believe everything has to come from the Bible. And how can people of the church of England defend their ancestors for joining this church over the one already in existence. Many people died on both sides because of this split.
 
I actually ask this a lot in my USATODAY forum postings and never get an answer. This question I believe is especially necessary for churches which teach that everything has to come from the Bible. I’m reading a book called “The Concise History of the Catholic Church” which does admit that reform was needed in the church and happened too late. There were a lot of problems in the church centuries before the Reformation. But the Bible has never let anyone create their own church. And Jesus said a house divided would fall I believe. There was a verse which had other Christians who were not with the Apostles and Jesus said to leave them alone. For Catholics how do we defend that verse in regards to this question? I just see a king creating a church because he wants to divorce his wife as something being started with evil and sinful motivations. Nationalism was on the roll during this time and I bet had a large factor in what Henry VIII did. But Nationalsim is a world belief and we are taught to have heavenly beliefs. Jesus said “what is the use in calling me ‘Lord, lord’, and not doing what I say?” He said very specific things about divorce. So in regards to the Bible as a whole, where does someone get the authority to create their own church? I’d really like to hear what protestants would say to this question whether or not they believe everything has to come from the Bible. And how can people of the church of England defend their ancestors for joining this church over the one already in existence. Many people died on both sides because of this split.
This thread isn’t going anywhere good. You have your church, we have ours. Just leave it alone. People have been arguing this for 500 years and where has it gotten us?
 
I think this is an honest question. What is wrong with answering it? I did put part of the answer in my post. The Popes authority gets questioned. All is fair in love and war. Cults spring up all the time because people create their own churches. And how many people suffer? And then look at the many different beliefs that spring up causing mass confusion. Examples… was Mary a virgin, is Jesus God, baptism using just Jesus or the Trinity, the Trinity disputed by some, etc. There was one church in the Old Testament. To me the ability to start your own church creates chaos. I think one of the biggest mistakes in church history was not adopting Hebrew and or Ariamic as the offical language of the church with everyone having to learn these languages.

Why did we translate the Bible into our own languages and forcing it to conform to us instead of us conforming to the Bible and learning the language Jesus spoke? How then could we disagree as to the truth?

Again, the Apostles saw other Christians who were not with them. And were left alone.
I think this is a huge part of the debate. Did Jesus want these many beliefs different beliefs we have now to spring up?
 
I think this is an honest question. What is wrong with answering it? I did put part of the answer in my post. The Popes authority gets questioned. All is fair in love and war.
I suppose one could ask, “Where did the colonies get the authority to break off from Great Britain?” Well, they didn’t. But they saw an unjust, tyrannical power and opposed it. Most Americans would agree that it was a good move.
 
Tyranny? He wanted to get divorced so he could remarry and thus sin which is something Jesus talked about. Most Americans want to violate what Jesus taught? That Queen did nothing wrong to deserve a divorce. Did she cheat on him? If so that was considered treason and he would have had her beheaded. Which we know he did to his other future wives.

What should the church have done? Should they have allowed him to divorce someone so he could remarry someone else? What would this have done to society had they done this? He should have chosen another successor and accepted God’s will that he would just never have a son. Sometimes we have to live with our pain. Thus we grow. He had no authority to make a sin something just.
 
Tyranny? He wanted to get divorced so he could remarry and thus sin which is something Jesus talked about. Most Americans want to violate what Jesus taught? That Queen did nothing wrong to deserve a divorce. Did she cheat on him? If so that was considered treason and he would have had her beheaded. Which we know he did to his other future wives.

What should the church have done? Should they have allowed him to divorce someone so he could remarry someone else? What would this have done to society had they done this? He should have chosen another successor and accepted God’s will that he would just never have a son. Sometimes we have to live with our pain. Thus we grow. He had no authority to make a sin something just.
Who exactly did Luther or Calvin divorce?

You said ‘reformers’, not the Anglican church. They weren’t the only reformers, just so you know.
 
Luther and Calvin are in the Debate. How can we keep Henry VIII apart from the debate considering all three left the church? Think about this debate and come back tomorrow. I’m actually trying to see what Protestants think of these topics. If you don’t believe your church needs the authority to exist just say so which could even be a legitimate answer considering the verse I wanted Catholics to comment on. But this split caused a lot of division and pain. It caused a lot of deaths that they probably didn’t foresee. At least now we can debate these topics in a friendly fashion without burning each other at the stake. Of course I know there were more reformers. I don’t wish to make these posting so huge by talking about every one of them. Which gets into my point. We have Luther, Calvin, Henry VIII, and many more. And each had different beliefs. Thus the chaos part of my debate.
 
Tyranny? He wanted to get divorced so he could remarry and thus sin which is something Jesus talked about. Most Americans want to violate what Jesus taught? That Queen did nothing wrong to deserve a divorce. Did she cheat on him? If so that was considered treason and he would have had her beheaded. Which we know he did to his other future wives.

What should the church have done? Should they have allowed him to divorce someone so he could remarry someone else? What would this have done to society had they done this? He should have chosen another successor and accepted God’s will that he would just never have a son. Sometimes we have to live with our pain. Thus we grow. He had no authority to make a sin something just.
No, Hank wanted a decree of nullity, a thing that was granted routinely in the day, at his level of society. It happened literally all the time, a very complicated system of impediments/dispensations/decrees of nullity were constantly evolving to permit and control it. And he tried very hard to play the game by the rules. His causa,, that the dispensation granted by Julius, to allow him to marry his brother’s widow, against the (perceived ) Levitical prohibition was ultra vires, beyond even the Pope’s authority to dispense from a divine impediment, was as strong as the average case. Stronger than that of his sister, who received 2 decrees of nullity, herself. And he had an even stronger argument available to him, in the impediment from the justice of public honesty, but neither would have sufficed, in the political environment that he was in. Charles VII, and all.

Hank and his Great Matter is a hobby of mine. Lots of facts in that fascinating story. As, that he did have son.

GKC
 
Basically, I want to know where the Reformers got their beliefs from. If they invented these themselves then they have violated many parts of the Bible. We are not to add or subtract to the Bible. This is one of the last verses of Revelations. We are to follow the spoken and written traditions of the church which is in 2 Thess 2:15 and other verses. We are to obey the teachings of Jesus when he said what is the use of calling him “Lord, lord” and not doing what he says. So many verses come together.

But if they got there beliefs from a source in the first century I’d like to know this source so I can read it. If you do not believe any of these are ideas are necessary I’d like to know why. I wouldn’t also mind knowing the source of the Catholic beliefs on these topics.

To me any church which creates its own beliefs (or interprets the Bible contrary to how it was originally interpreted) violates one of the main themes of the Old Testament. That theme involved world and heavenly (God’s) beliefs. There were many warnings to not take world beliefs and make them your own. We are to have heavenly beliefs which i believe is what Jesus meant by the modern term born again. We have to get rid of our worldly beliefs and take these heavenly beliefs that were taught since the beginning of his church. Any belief which contradicts these beliefs are worldly beliefs. So yes, I think this is a valid debate.

If the reformers came up with their own ideas around 1550 AD, I would like to know how those ideas were not worldly beliefs. Either way this should be able to be proven. Either the Catholic church or any number of the Protestant churches can prove that their beliefs were the oldest. Or are my ideas on this subject incorrect and we don’t have to prove which beliefs are the oldest? Like I said. All of this could have been solved had our ancestors learned the original languages. From the original languages to Greek to English just isn’t an effective way to learn a religion. Especially when all of these languages use words differently or do not contain the proper words to translate to.

All of the religions can’t be right.
 
Thank you for the info on Henry VIII. Are you sure that marrying your brothers widow was wrong? I thought the book of Ruths was about one of them having to do just this. Wasn’t that the tradition back then that the brother had to marry his brother’s wife so she could have a child to continue the deceased brothers line? We do have rules for annulement to this day. Having children makes getting an annulement very hard and he had the daughter. He did eventually have the son who unfortunately died young. The church right or wrong did have the authority to turn down his annulement and I believe he should have honored it. You did say (preceived) but this is the first I’ve heard of that. And its 2am and I"M tired! 🙂
 
I have no desire to search old forums with 1000 replies. I’d rather start a new one and get new ideas with my involvement to my questions. If you don’t have something interesting to say then by all means… go away and Troll somewhere else. You are United Methodist. Who started your church and when? What source did they use to create their beliefs or did they come up with it on their own? By what authority did they have to create their own beliefs if so? I doubt these questions have been asked and I’m not going to search for something that might not exist. If you don’t want to help me learn about your religion then don’t bother posting.
 
I actually ask this a lot in my USATODAY forum postings and never get an answer. This question I believe is especially necessary for churches which teach that everything has to come from the Bible. I’m reading a book called “The Concise History of the Catholic Church” which does admit that reform was needed in the church and happened too late. There were a lot of problems in the church centuries before the Reformation. But the Bible has never let anyone create their own church. And Jesus said a house divided would fall I believe. There was a verse which had other Christians who were not with the Apostles and Jesus said to leave them alone. For Catholics how do we defend that verse in regards to this question? I just see a king creating a church because he wants to divorce his wife as something being started with evil and sinful motivations. Nationalism was on the roll during this time and I bet had a large factor in what Henry VIII did. But Nationalsim is a world belief and we are taught to have heavenly beliefs. Jesus said “what is the use in calling me ‘Lord, lord’, and not doing what I say?” He said very specific things about divorce. So in regards to the Bible as a whole, where does someone get the authority to create their own church? I’d really like to hear what protestants would say to this question whether or not they believe everything has to come from the Bible. And how can people of the church of England defend their ancestors for joining this church over the one already in existence. Many people died on both sides because of this split.
I guess one could ask, where did Rome get the authority to schism from the other Patriarchs? Where does Rome get the authority to claim universal jurisdiction and infallibility, when they were not granted in the early councils?

But the biggest question is, how does your question help us move away from our divisions towards a closer relationship, and an atmosphere where the HOly Spirit can guide us all back to reconciliation?

Jon
 
Thank you for the info on Henry VIII. Are you sure that marrying your brothers widow was wrong? I thought the book of Ruths was about one of them having to do just this. Wasn’t that the tradition back then that the brother had to marry his brother’s wife so she could have a child to continue the deceased brothers line? We do have rules for annulement to this day. Having children makes getting an annulement very hard and he had the daughter. He did eventually have the son who unfortunately died young. The church right or wrong did have the authority to turn down his annulement and I believe he should have honored it. You did say (preceived) but this is the first I’ve heard of that. And its 2am and I"M tired! 🙂
The conflict with the concept in Leviticus is directly expressed in Deuteronomy XXV, that the brother should take his brother’s widow and “raise up seed for his brother” - the levirate duty. The conflict could be glossed, in any particular incidence. And would be, in that the purpose of the entire constantly evolving system of impediments/dispensations, etc, was twofold. It was designed to permit the Church to control the sacrament of matrimony, as a sacrament, and at the same time to permit the making and breaking of dynastic marriages, for purposes of state. It happened literally all the time. The network of potential impediments, most significantly impediments of consanguinity, of affinity (which was what Henry’s causa urged was standing in the way of Julius’ dispensation permitting him to marry Catherine, and a divine one, at that) and the justice of public honesty (which contained the more powerful argument that Henry could have made), was so extensive and so complex that a Scottish bishop of the time said it was almost impossible to find a couple high in society without some theoretical impediment to marriage. The whole system was reformed at the Council of Trent, Session XXIV. The current rules with respect to annulment decrees are even more reformed.

Henry asked for what was a commonplace, then. His original concern was for his (shaky) dynasty, and even before he sought the decree, he was taking what steps he could, with Mary, and with Henry Fitzroy, to see what these two assets might do for the problem. Both had drawbacks. When he became infatuated with Anne Boleyn, the commonplace solution for his problem struck him. And he started a quest for a decree of nullity, just as his sister had successfully done, the same year.

The system for handling this was, as I said, partially theological, and partially political. And Henry ran smack into politics, in the person of the Holy Roman Emperor, Catherine’s nephew, and a vacillating Pope, and the entire political scene in Europe (esp. the Battle of Pavia). And he did not prevail. But he was capable of making a political response himself, and he did.

One other point: earlier you mentioned nationalism, and that was certainly a factor. But it cannot be put on Henry’s head, or this particular conflict, alone. What happened then was the culmination of hundreds of years of political struggle, stretching back at least to the first Statute of Westminster in 1275, and before, through the 2 Statutes each of Provisors and of Praaemunire, ending in 1393. These were a long history of conflict between the throne and Parliament, and the Church, seeking in each case to increase the state authority and to decrease the scope of the Church. Henry was merely the culmination.

HIstory is complicated. The cartoon version of Hank and his harem is not history. And we all know that we should, as a wise man suggested, be deep in history.

GKC
 
I have no desire to search old forums with 1000 replies. I’d rather start a new one and get new ideas with my involvement to my questions. If you don’t have something interesting to say then by all means… go away and Troll somewhere else. You are United Methodist. Who started your church and when? What source did they use to create their beliefs or did they come up with it on their own? By what authority did they have to create their own beliefs if so? I doubt these questions have been asked and I’m not going to search for something that might not exist. If you don’t want to help me learn about your religion then don’t bother posting.
O. S. Luke is no troll.

GKC
 
I actually ask this a lot in my USATODAY forum postings and never get an answer. This question I believe is especially necessary for churches which teach that everything has to come from the Bible. I’m reading a book called “The Concise History of the Catholic Church” which does admit that reform was needed in the church and happened too late. There were a lot of problems in the church centuries before the Reformation. But the Bible has never let anyone create their own church. And Jesus said a house divided would fall I believe. There was a verse which had other Christians who were not with the Apostles and Jesus said to leave them alone. For Catholics how do we defend that verse in regards to this question? I just see a king creating a church because he wants to divorce his wife as something being started with evil and sinful motivations. Nationalism was on the roll during this time and I bet had a large factor in what Henry VIII did. But Nationalsim is a world belief and we are taught to have heavenly beliefs. Jesus said “what is the use in calling me ‘Lord, lord’, and not doing what I say?” He said very specific things about divorce. So in regards to the Bible as a whole, where does someone get the authority to create their own church? I’d really like to hear what protestants would say to this question whether or not they believe everything has to come from the Bible. And how can people of the church of England defend their ancestors for joining this church over the one already in existence. Many people died on both sides because of this split.
The way I made sense of Christendom during the time I was an Evangelical was that the Catholic Church had become corrupt and was leading people astray and that the Reformers saw this and in good conscience tried to do something about it. However, instead of acknowledging its waywardness and proceeding accordingly, the Catholic Church responded by convening the Council of Trent and over a period of some eighteen years pronounced anathemas upon everybody and his uncle. That left the Reformers and those who inherited the Reform legacy out in the cold and they therefore had to work out their own salvation with fear and trembling as individuals rather than corporately since the corporation appeared to have a rather bad smell about it. So if one presupposes that the bad smell is still in the air, as many in these latter days most definitely do, the question, “Where did the Reformers get the authority to leave the Catholic Church?” collapses in on itself when it is countered by the obvious rhetorical question: “By what authority do you ask that question?”

I perceive the Anglican Church to be in a slightly different position. It seems to me that the Reformation Proper, if I may be allowed to refer to it in those terms, was enacted on the continent. But quite early on, when Henry VIII got wind of Martin Luther’s ideas, he wrote a defense of the seven sacraments for which the pope awarded him the title, Defender of the Faith – meaning the Catholic faith. I’ve always felt that Henry VIII never thought of himself as anything other than Catholic. The historical record suggests to me that it wasn’t until after Henry’s death that “Protestantism” was formally embraced in England. I’ll happily defer to GKC, though, if he has a different perception. 🙂

Ecumenically,
Mick
👍
 
The way I made sense of Christendom during the time I was an Evangelical was that the Catholic Church had become corrupt and was leading people astray and that the Reformers saw this and in good conscience tried to do something about it. However, instead of acknowledging its waywardness and proceeding accordingly, the Catholic Church responded by convening the Council of Trent and over a period of some eighteen years pronounced anathemas upon everybody and his uncle. That left the Reformers and those who inherited the Reform legacy out in the cold and they therefore had to work out their own salvation with fear and trembling as individuals rather than corporately since the corporation appeared to have a rather bad smell about it. So if one presupposes that the bad smell is still in the air, as many in these latter days most definitely do, the question, “Where did the Reformers get the authority to leave the Catholic Church?” collapses in on itself when it is countered by the obvious rhetorical question: “By what authority do you ask that question?”

I perceive the Anglican Church to be in a slightly different position. It seems to me that the Reformation Proper, if I may be allowed to refer to it in those terms, was enacted on the continent. But quite early on, when Henry VIII got wind of Martin Luther’s ideas, he wrote a defense of the seven sacraments for which the pope awarded him the title, Defender of the Faith – meaning the Catholic faith. I’ve always felt that Henry VIII never thought of himself as anything other than Catholic. The historical record suggests to me that it wasn’t until after Henry’s death that “Protestantism” was formally embraced in England. I’ll happily defer to GKC, though, if he has a different perception. 🙂

Ecumenically,
Mick
👍
I agree with your last paragraph, though not for exactly the same reasons. But I make the same conclusion, almost.

A point: Henry’s participation in the writing of the Assertio Septem Sacramentorum is a historical puzzle. Most authorities will give him the first, maybe the second chapters. After that, who knows. But he certainly signed and supported it.

The full story of that, and Henry’s receiving the Defensor Fidei title is amusing, and not exactly what is often heard. I could C&P one of my recitations, if there is any interest.

GKC
 
I agree with your last paragraph, though not for exactly the same reasons. But I make the same conclusion, almost.
Feel free to enlarge.
A point: Henry’s participation in the writing of the Assertio Septem Sacramentorum is a historical puzzle. Most authorities will give him the first, maybe the second chapters. After that, who knows. But he certainly signed and supported it.
Indeed. Of course, at the time, the only Authority for all practical purposes was Henry himself.
The full story of that, and Henry’s receiving the Defensor Fidei title is amusing, and not exactly what is often heard. I could C&P one of my recitations, if there is any interest.
I can’t recall how long ago it was but I seem to remember Prince Charles suggesting that it ought to be rendered in English simply as Defender of Faith presumably because he held the idea that no faith should seem superior to another and that provided you’ve got faith (in something or other) you were OK as far as he was concerned. Do you recall that?

Please do copy and paste one of your recitations. It would still be on topic.

Expectantly,
Mick
👍
 
My view is the choice regarding the reformers to leave Catholicism was similar to me and why I left Catholicism — for me, characteristics such as revelation is missing.

When will Catholicism recognize the defects in your foundation? My guess, never because your claim to being the true church of Christ, is you profess it is, it spite of the defects, at least in my view.

Personally, the reformers saw the defects at the time resulting in their decision to leave Catholicism.
 
My view is the choice regarding the reformers to leave Catholicism was similar to me and why I left Catholicism — for me, characteristics such as revelation is missing.

When will Catholicism recognize the defects in your foundation? My guess, never because your claim to being the true church of Christ, is you profess it is, it spite of the defects, at least in my view.

Personally, the reformers saw the defects at the time resulting in their decision to leave Catholicism.
I don’t think Martin Luther made a decision to leave Catholicism, did he? Didn’t he get thrown out?

Historically,
Mick
👍
 
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